Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: julianm on August 02, 2011, 02:24:37 AM
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In the old forum , there was a great write by Jeremy Mitchell and others on cornering techniques. Would it be possible to access that topic or could Jeremy please repost his .
Many thanks
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hi,
here is my "lecture" for you to improve your cornering: take an advanced course (assuming you can already handle a bike) and practice, practice, practice. And then practice some more. You need to find a good place for that practice, with curves and run-away areas that won't hurt (much) if you slide.
I am myself trying to upgrade my abilities and this is what I found it makes a lot of difference. Now, except a very good rider in a supermotard or an S1000RR, I can at least follow everything through the really twisty stuff. I can't overtake them, no way, but at least I can keep up. :)
And most important of all, I repeat an advice that Brian told me: respect your times and your own rythm. Let your skills evolve and develope. It's good to push yourself to improve, but you don't need to proof anything.
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I will give my advice on cornering as I am one of the faster ones in my group of friends.
Choose the line before getting to the corner and come in wide from the outside and cut the corner (the turns are not as sharp if you come from the outside to the inside to the outside every time). Make sure you are on the throttle through the turn as the bike settles into the corner with the majority of the weight where you want it, on the rear tire (larger contact patch) and stay smooth on the throttle through the turn.
Anyone can go fast in the straights, the trick is doing it in the turns and allowing your friends to catch up in the straights. It's more fun to go fast in the corners anyway and harder to get tickets as well.
Where I always slow down is when I get into narrow roads, especially ones that are bumpy or whenever there is gravel on the road. No way around that, the brain doesn't allow me to go fast and I am fine with that.
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Not sure I remember or can find the thread that you are talking about, but I am pretty sure I didn't start a thread about cornering techniques, I might have thrown my two cents in, but my cornering techniques have all been learned through the BRC, ARC, Military Sport Bike Course and my limited (18 months) riding experience. SVonhof hit the nail on the head about picking the widest line possible then cut in towards the apex. I will say this, if you are used to driving cars quickly or have any track time you will notice that the apex of a corner on a bike is usually later in the curve than if you are in a car. YMMV. Just remember slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
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You'll get all kinds of advice, and a lot of it is good advice. But the main advice is this...
> Ride a pace you are comfortable with. Just because the guy in front of you is in front of you or has some bad-ass equipment doesn't mean he knows what he's doing
> Don't follow the guy in front of you. By that I mean don't focus on him - focus on the road. If you focus on him and he goes off the road, guess where you are going to go?
> You go where you look. When people think they are in over their head they start looking for a good place to go off the road. Usually they find it. Focus on the road where you WANT to end up. You almost always will.
> Trust your tires, but don't always trust the road. Public roads have a lot going on. Blind curves are just that.
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You'll get all kinds of advice, and a lot of it is good advice. But the main advice is this...
> Ride a pace you are comfortable with. Just because the guy in front of you is in front of you or has some bad-ass equipment doesn't mean he knows what he's doing
> Don't follow the guy in front of you. By that I mean don't focus on him - focus on the road. If you focus on him and he goes off the road, guess where you are going to go?
> You go where you look. When people think they are in over their head they start looking for a good place to go off the road. Usually they find it. Focus on the road where you WANT to end up. You almost always will.
> Trust your tires, but don't always trust the road. Public roads have a lot going on. Blind curves are just that.
+1
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3 huge things, entry speed should be slow enough that you have no need to slow during the turn, entry point, and eyeballs. Your eyes are like the sights on a rifle, you will go where you look. If you WANT to hit that guard rail, go ahead, stare at it, if you dont, pick an exit point and look there. Your entry point should be the point that offers the greatest amount of forward vision, it does two things, as stated, it helps straighten out the corner, and it gives you the best vision of whats ahead, allowing you the earliest opportunity to find your exit point. Dont hit the apex too soon, you will have to hold the lean that much longer, late apexes may have a sharper lean, but far less time down. Body position isnt everything, but it is a lot, this is where an advanced course would really be beneficial. Out here in the great Pacific Northwest ( www.pugetsoundsafety.com (http://www.pugetsoundsafety.com) ) we have the SMART ASS course (Scan, Mark, Adjust (Speed and body position), Relax, and Throttle off apex Advanced Street Skills). We run it at Pacific Raceways and is a street oriented course, not a race day. We have many returning riders with alot of verbal testimonials how it had both enhanced their riding skills and sharpened their chances of survival.
Remember, if your dragging hard parts you're probably doing something wrong (sorry Jeremy, not busting on yer ground pegs). The hard parts grinding usually come from a decel mid corner (in too hot, press more, brake less and come in slower next time) or improper body position which causes the suspension to overwork, or work in ways that are less efficient.
Bottom line, never ride to someone elses comfort level, ride your ride, 'less of course you have a hot DR!!
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I am always trying to learn, I just wish there were more options around my area to get some one on one with an experienced coach.
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I am always trying to learn, I just wish there were more options around my area to get some one on one with an experienced coach.
Get stationed at FT Lewis and ya have a free coach ;D Sorry, I aint heading that way, too dern hot for my tastes!
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Get stationed at FT Lewis and ya have a free coach ;D Sorry, I aint heading that way, too dern hot for my tastes!
If you find me a job up there I just might take you up on that offer. ;D
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If you find me a job up there I just might take you up on that offer. ;D
Don't do it, it rains there 360 days a year!
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Jeremy Mitchell <---he's always humble but its no secret he can rail the turns (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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Thank you all for the advice.
At present I am at the " brake and gear down before the corner if appropriate , balls of feet on pegs, look ahead ( and keep looking ahead) ,counter steer to appropriate lean angle and lean with the bike " stage.
Jeremy is right , you did not start the post but did answer.
Your answer ( and I hope my memory serves correctly ) was along the lines of instructing military riders and discussed turning the inside shoulder forward in a bend and doing something with legs - I think gripping the tank with the outside one. This I found most interesting and was hoping to experiment . I think someone in the topic also mentioned moving about 1/2 a cheek inside helped a lot.
I also find that by moving a bit forward ,it is a bit easier to hold the lean.
Agree practise is really the way to go but would like to know I am practising the right techniques.
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Thank you all for the advice.
At present I am at the " brake and gear down before the corner if appropriate , balls of feet on pegs, look ahead ( and keep looking ahead) ,counter steer to appropriate lean angle and lean with the bike " stage.
Jeremy is right , you did not start the post but did answer.
Your answer ( and I hope my memory serves correctly ) was along the lines of instructing military riders and discussed turning the inside shoulder forward in a bend and doing something with legs - I think gripping the tank with the outside one. This I found most interesting and was hoping to experiment . I think someone in the topic also mentioned moving about 1/2 a cheek inside helped a lot.
I also find that by moving a bit forward ,it is a bit easier to hold the lean.
Agree practise is really the way to go but would like to know I am practising the right techniques.
In the Military Sport Bike course, we were instructed to lean down and in (belly on the tank and try to get your inside shoulder as far inside and down as possible. This is to get a around a corner quickly without hanging your inside butt cheek off the bike and attracting unwanted LEO attention. We were also instructed to use our inside foot to put more leverage on the inside peg. I have been using this method for a while and it seems like the more I relax my arms and keep my elbows down the easier it is to track through a corner smoothly. But when I try to muscle my bike through and have my elbows straight out it seems that I have to make more mid corner adjustments. YMMV
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Like the thread. I am also learning. Peg weighting, knees pressed in and relaxed upper torso is getting some great enjoyment along with more speed. I will work with the upper torso movement next, makes sense.
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Like the thread. I am also learning. Peg weighting, knees pressed in and relaxed upper torso is getting some great enjoyment along with more speed. I will work with the upper torso movement next, makes sense.
Knee DRAGGING (see avatar). I don't drag on the C14 but I hang off the seat anyway. C14 pegs always drag before we do (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
In the old days is was suggested knees in, it may not be best for handling.
The evolution of the art of cornering has had four complete phases so far. The neat, tidy, knees-to-tank, stretched-out-on-the-bike style of the 19-teens through the 1960s was handed down as the path of least resistance. You could say it was the ‘natural’ style of riding.
Phase two. Mike Hailwood let his inside knee come off the tank in the 1960s and practically created a stock market panic in the riding style etiquette market – it was a huge departure from tradition. Paul Smart, Barry Sheene and others followed. Then, phase three, Jarno Saarinen actually moved his butt off the seat a bit, which was emulated by many.
The fourth phase is credited to and was pioneered by Kenny Roberts Sr’s knee-down, hang-off style in the 1970s. Initially this earth-shattering look was quite personal to the rider, each having his own iteration of the new form. Cal Rayborn and Kel Carruthers were halfway guys, still clinging a bit to phase two. Some others had lots of bum off, some with lots of leg and knee off, some rotated around the tank a la Mick Doohan. A few went head and body way down and on the inside of the tank, Randy Mamola style. Some hung-off but remained sitting more upright, like Kevin Schwantz.
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I like that this thread was started by someone from South Africa, welcome Julianm! :chugbeer:
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The fourth phase is credited to and was pioneered by Kenny Roberts Sr’s knee-down, hang-off style in the 1970s. Initially this earth-shattering look was quite personal to the rider, each having his own iteration of the new form. Cal Rayborn and Kel Carruthers were halfway guys, still clinging a bit to phase two. Some others had lots of bum off, some with lots of leg and knee off, some rotated around the tank a la Mick Doohan. A few went head and body way down and on the inside of the tank, Randy Mamola style. Some hung-off but remained sitting more upright, like Kevin Schwantz.
Ben Spies:
(http://adrenalinefix.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/elbow.jpeg)
Casey Stoner:
(http://2wheeltuesday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Casey-Stoner-elbow-dragging.jpg)
and a great slow motion video of Casey:
http://www.redbullusa.com/cs/Satellite/en_US/Video/moments-casey-stoner-moto-gp-021243047212056 (http://www.redbullusa.com/cs/Satellite/en_US/Video/moments-casey-stoner-moto-gp-021243047212056)
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I understand the science of hanging of and dragging a knee on a race track, where you have the opportunity to memorize the track and all of the curves. It makes No sense to me on the street where you are often times seeing a road for the first time and have no idea what's next and or what change of direction may be required next. Seems to me that being hung off the bike in one direction might not be the ideal position if the situation requires a rider to make an instant and drastic turn in the opposite direction. I will admit that I do enjoy passing riders on bikes much more sporting than my own, when they are so hung up on hanging off, and or dragging a knee that they seem to forget how to actually ride.
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One thing to always keep in mind when cornering on the road is to enter at such a speed that you can stop or swerve if you need to. You never know when a deer, rock, gravel, or other obstacle will be around that blind corner, and if you are riding at your limits, you won't have any options other than having a bad day.
Yes, I know this is less fun, but if you want to push the limits, you are better off taking it to the track.
Also, always enter a corner at a lower speed than you think you are able to manage for the corner, especially if you've never ridden through that corner/on that particular road before. That way, you'll have a chance to recover if you find tar snakes, a sudden bump, etc..
While late apexing and such are good skills to learn, my strategy is to choose the line that gives me the most asphalt to work with should I have to change my line mid corner (due to animals, gravel, etc.). For me this usually means staying closer to the yellow median when cornering to the left, but not putting my head in the opposite lane of travel, so that I can swerve right if I need to, or god forbid into the oncoming lane if that's my best option. When cornering right, I tend to be closer to the shoulder, as it's easier to widen your line of travel than tighten it. Not too close though, gravel likes to hang out at the edge of the road.
And of course, always endeavor to enter a curve in a lower gear, so your revs are sufficiently high to apply deceleration torque if you need to slow down. I find that at least 4.5K RPM, preferably 5-8K RPM works best for the C10 - anything lower won't help you much, and you'll have to rely on the brakes alone.
With the C10's slipper clutch, you can downshift while in a corner, but may stand up the bike in the process if you aren't careful, and are much more likely to partially lock/skid your rear. It takes practice to downshift in a curve without freaking yourself out - of course the best option is to be in the lower gear BEFORE the curve/corner commences!
IF I've entered a corner/curve in too high of a gear on a downhill curve, I usually am braking slightly as I enter the downhill curves at that point to begin with. At that point, I am also leaning appropriately to counter the bikes tendency to stand up while braking, before I downshift. I brake slightly harder as I lose the engine torque while disengaging the clutch, downshift (revs are already climbing when I disengage), and engage the clutch smoothly while backing off on the brakes. At that point I often mentally chew myself out momentarily afterwords (while still paying attention to the road of course), for not being in the right gear in the first place...
Keep your following distance open a little bit when at speed. This way, if the rider in front of you goes down, you have time to make a decision as to where to go.
On one particular ride I was on last year, I was riding with a couple of Sports Bike guys I hang with, about 3-4 seconds behind them. At one point, I came around a left hand blind corner and saw them at a complete stop due to a herd of sheep in the road blocking the road completely. They were absolutely positive I'd plow into them with my heavier Connie, but I managed to come to a complete stop with about 4-5 feet to spare. If I had been letting it all hang out, things might have ended very differently...
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<snip of the good stuff>
While late apexing and such are good skills to learn, my strategy is to choose the line that gives me the most asphalt to work with should I have to change my line mid corner (due to animals, gravel, etc.). For me this usually means staying closer to the yellow median when cornering to the left, but not putting my head in the opposite lane of travel, so that I can swerve right if I need to, or god forbid into the oncoming lane if that's my best option. When cornering right, I tend to be closer to the shoulder, as it's easier to widen your line of travel than tighten it. Not too close though, gravel likes to hang out at the edge of the road.
<snip of more good stuff>
On one particular ride I was on last year, I was riding with a couple of Sports Bike guys I hang with, about 3-4 seconds behind them. At one point, I came around a left hand blind corner and saw them at a complete stop due to a herd of sheep in the road blocking the road completely. They were absolutely positive I'd plow into them with my heavier Connie, but I managed to come to a complete stop with about 4-5 feet to spare. If I had been letting it all hang out, things might have ended very differently...
I've just been reading David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling and his advice (as well as of others, eg Keith Code) is just the opposite. ie, Improve your sight distances by staying to the outside and delaying the apex. He also discusses keeping you speed within your sight distance. Historically, I've followed your lines, but am changing what I believe to be bad habits.
In your example, it is possible that the preferred, delayed apex line would have given you an even greater margin at the end of the stop. I'm glad you're okay. It sounds like you have been practicing the braking skills.
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Someday I hope to corner like this guy... :o
Motard touche le casque au sol ! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ucXuAaK70#ws)
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Someday I hope to corner like this guy... :o
Which one? The cameraman seems to have the tougher job keeping this guy in frame. Or maybe he is using a HelmetCam...
I play this video at half-speed so I can practice making vroom, vroom noises in front of the LCD TV. :)
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Which one?
Either. But having scuff marks on your helmet from cornering sure beats just showing off your knee pucks.
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I've just been reading David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling and his advice (as well as of others, eg Keith Code) is just the opposite. ie, Improve your sight distances by staying to the outside and delaying the apex. He also discusses keeping you speed within your sight distance. Historically, I've followed your lines, but am changing what I believe to be bad habits.
In your example, it is possible that the preferred, delayed apex line would have given you an even greater margin at the end of the stop. I'm glad you're okay. It sounds like you have been practicing the braking skills.
This is essentially what I am doing, hence my comment about keeping your speed down in the corners. This guy just explains it better, and gives you a specific strategy r.e. your speed, which gives you a specific goal (what I offered is a lot less clear). If you are going into a blind corner at or near your best possible speed, you very likely aren't keeping your stopping distance within your sight distance.
I've always had good luck in braking situations with the Connie. Even with 'just' the stock calipers I find that braking is fairly predictable. One time I had a minivan pull the infamous left turn in front of the bike. I was traveling about 30-35 MPH at the time. I was completely stopped with about 1-2 feet between me and her passenger side door before it even registered in my thoughts 'oh s*** she just pulled out in front of me'. Of course, she had chosen to panic/completely stop directly in my line of travel. I do need to be a little mindful of the rear's tendency to lock if you brake too hard, but the brakes do their job.
And, of course, I've been more watchful for soccer moms since that day.
When canyon chasing in the mountains around here, you are often in open grazing range, and also fall within the ranges of several types of wildlife. So cows, sheep, and deer go with the territory.
Including these cute little guys...
http://dwrcdc.nr.utah.gov/rsgis2/search/Display.asp?FlNm=tamimini (http://dwrcdc.nr.utah.gov/rsgis2/search/Display.asp?FlNm=tamimini)
Unfortunately for them, they have suicidal tendencies when cars and bikes are passing - just a bump in the road if you hit one. We try not to hit them without doing anything drastic in the process.
That being said, I'm sure the C-10 Connie brakes are even better with the 4 pot front/2 pot rear caliper upgrades. Someday...
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I like that this thread was started by someone from South Africa, welcome Julianm! :chugbeer:
Thanks for the welcome ZG. Have been a mostly silent member of the forum with an occasional post.
Have found this forum to be most informative and have learnt a lot and had many laughs. Thanks to all the enthusiasts for all the posts and the great information in this one. Will certainly be reading and rereading all the advice offered.
The South African biking scene is well established with many clubs , rallies , day Jol's etc. Best riding close to Johannesburg ( about 400 Km) is the Eastern Transvaal or ET area on a 3000 ' escarpment with a number or great passes up and down. Recent rally in that area had about 5000 bikes attending.
One pass is quite well know - called the 22 , it has 75 corners in 22 Km and is a great challenge
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I got to test out the cornering techniques on my C14 this past weekend on a 4 day ride. Got caught by two decreasing radius turns and went wide in both, the second one because I hit the feeler on the peg (first time I have touched down a feeler on any bike I have owned). When I caught the feeler, I let up and went wide because it scared me so bad. Both times, no traffic the other way, lucky for me it's not a well traveled road. I really think that severe decreasing radius turns need to be labeled.
Anyway, I used up almost all of the tire, leaving only about 1/8" on either side of the back tire untouched.
With the C14 as compared to my former TL1000R, it takes a little more effort, but not much. The effort it takes is because there is more weight to deal with, but you get used to it pretty quick. I didn't bother keeping up with the fast guy in our group as I don't like pushing my luck more than I already was since these were roads I didn't know and there was lots of variable surfaces including gravel in corners as well as strange pavement that the tires didn't like much (new PR2 in front and stock rear tire). I used the same techniques I posted about originally except I did have a long downhill section of slow, super tight corners where I just left it in third gear the whole time and would lightly accelerate through (second would have been better if I was trying to go fast, but third gives more control on coming through the corners smoothly).