Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: sgilbert14 on August 17, 2014, 12:05:58 PM
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Of course on the eve of selling the girl she decided to kick my ass once more. It was running but the throttle stuck a bit. Changed the cables and out it back together and now the bike will not start. Checked the obvious stuff and it is getting gas and has spark. It turns over strong but just will not start. I drained the bowels because of the gas take issues in the past and nothing but nice clean gas so here I am suppose to be selling the bike this week and she decides to do this to me know.... I must be missing something... any ideas? :banghead:
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She still Loves you and wants you to reconsider.
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My '05 wouldn't start when the pilot jets got plugged. Not badly plugged, but no start. Had SISF do the jet mod, carb cleaning, installed the exhaust sprocket and ran it. Sat a couple weeks after the tank flush/reinstall and even had an inline fuel filter, but it disturbed some sediment junk that found its way to the pilots. Pulled the carbs back off, cleaned out the jets and all was well.
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Other than the bike still wanting you...
check that the cables are connected properly, the choke cable not messed with. also make sure the kill switch is working right. after all you were working on the right handle.
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Still trying to get this sorted. I will try again tomorrow afternoon but the kill switch seems to be fine as well as the cables. Next..
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Still trying to get this sorted. I will try again tomorrow afternoon but the kill switch seems to be fine as well as the cables. Next..
First. Do you have spark when cranking? If you do, as you mentioned there is, then it's most likely carb issue as it's unlikely to have gotten out of time by itself.
As I mentioned earlier, my freshly and professionally cleaned and jetted carbs got the pilot jets plugged (no fault of the guy that did the work) and starting was virtually impossible.
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Put it on prime for a few minutes to let the bowls fill up, then try to start.
If no start, turn the fuel to on and drain the bowls as a way of checking that the bowls were getting fuel.
If getting fuel and it has spark, and the choke cable and throttle cables operate, and check the air filter for obstructions, then I don't see why it wouldn't start.
I hate using the starter too much. Make sure to only try it in short bursts and allow time between to let it cool some, like a few minutes.
If you have a nice long hilly street, try coasting and bump starting using 2nd or 3rd gear. If it doesn't start after a good try doing this, maybe verify it is getting spark on all cylinders, and then I go back to the fuel.
How many miles on bike and when was the last valve adjustment? Take the plugs out and check if they look overly wet or dry and may as well see if there is compression by cranking it over with plugs out.
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Thank you for all the advice and it looks like I have fun time for tomorrow. Never thought about the timing but I will try it all and see what goes starting with the spark, fuel and air
Thank again
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Maybe this has been said but ... make sure the battery is in fact charged fully and well connected. If the battery or its connections are marginal, this particular bike has been prone to give starting issues even though it reads +12v. It gives enough current to spin but not enough to fire the ignition with a nice hot spark. Put it on charge overnight.
While bump starting sounds like a good idea if it starts, remember, if it doesn't - what goes down must come back up (by pushing).
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That I know about from an old bike experience. I have the perfect hill 1/8 of a mile away but if it doesn't start it becomes hell...
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Have the valves been adjusted? Does it sound like it is turning over real fast?
I see Summit670 already asked you that. We are both thinking the same.
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Spent a ton of time going through all of the above and it all checked out great. While watching Truck U on velocity the talked about ethanol fuel and the issue of it varnishing fast if not used. Figured that I couldn't loose so I pulled the carbs and on the engine side there was a nice sticky varnish. Picked up some carb cleaner and gave it a good cleaning and added just a bit of gas in the boot and put it back together and what do you know, it fired right up. Only ran for a few second and then died so, off cones the carbs and checked the bowels and they're nice and clean so sprayed to all down again but now am letting it just sit.
Lesson learned - cheaper gas is just that CHEAP ! Now I just hope that I don't need to send the carbs away again...... Like Steve's work but....
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Remove the pilot jets and make sure they are clear. The holes are very small, doesn't take much to plug or skin them over. Make sure you can spray thru them. Resist the temptation to run a needle or something thru them unless it's smaller than the jet orifice. The brass is easy to ream out bigger and that will mess things up.
Be sure you can spray thru all passages.
The ethanol issue evaporating is one of the reasons SISF recommends the two stroke oil added to the gas.
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Thank and I did removed only the bowels and, on 1 and 3, finally got the cleaner to spray through the gets. Afraid to go any further then that due to the course on the carb magic not being a strong point. :yikes: Still, I will spray is all down and see where it goes from this point. Let you know
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The ethanol issue evaporating is one of the reasons SISF recommends the two stroke oil added to the gas.
:goodpost:
+1 on that. If your not putting 2 stroke oil in with your gas you will have issues when running ethanol gas..
My carbs had to go back to Steve after one year of not using 2 stroke oil and they were a mess. That reminds me. I need to buy some more. I put it in all my carburated bikes.
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Thank and I did removed only the bowels and, on 1 and 3, finally got the cleaner to spray through the gets. Afraid to go any further then that due to the course on the carb magic not being a strong point. :yikes: Still, I will spray is all down and see where it goes from this point. Let you know
The pilot jet is removeable from the carb body with a good quality small size regular screwdriver. It's down a rather deep hole. Look at a parts diagram and you can find the location. Remove it and make sure its clear and clean thru the center and the side orifices on the jet itself. Spray cleaner thru the passage with and w/o the pilot jet installed.
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Thanks to both. Never heard about adding the oil but note well learned and taken.
Thanks and I did watched a few you tube videos earlier and found out just what you stated and I will be doing that in just a few.
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Some links you may find useful.....carb cleaning
This one is one of the better links I found. Never mind that it is a 250 Ninja because the carbs operate pretty similar if not exactly the same.
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleaning_the_carbs_2 (http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleaning_the_carbs_2)
Here is a youtube video that may add a different perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=exa467_eoXw&feature=endscreen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=exa467_eoXw&feature=endscreen)
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Thanks for all the help. The you tube video is the one that I watched early and is what convinced me that it was not that big of a deal but mind you, I did not touch the mixture screws at all. That I would never get back. I did clean off the rest and all ports were open when spraying the carb cleaner. Now the trickle charger is on the battery for the night and if everything goes as I pray it will start tomorrow. :hail:
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Thanks to both. Never heard about adding the oil but note well learned and taken.
Thanks and I did watched a few you tube videos earlier and found out just what you stated and I will be doing that in just a few.
A couple oz per 5-6 gal is enough. Any inexpensive non-synthetic TCWlll two stroke oil will do the trick.
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Thanks and will be doing this from now on
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Steve, if you sprayed carb cleaner into assembled carbs you most likely did more damage. The slide diaphrams absolutely will not tolerate getting carb cleaner on them, they swell up like crazy, and then they won't lift the slides at all, effectively killing anything past idle.
BTW, when ethanol dries and clogs the pilots, it's just a tiny film over the orifice. since you're feeling stickiness, I hate to tell you, that's the tank sealer again. check the engine side of the carb throttle valves (butterflies) see if they have a haze on them that you can wipe off with some carb cleaner on a paper towel. If so, it's the tank epoxy again, just like last time.
The instructions that came with the carbs has info on using the tcw3 oil, and it's highly recommended. Good luck, Steve
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Wow, take sealer after over a year. That really sucks. I have really gotten to hate this bike. Cannot wait to get it out of here. My next, if there is one, will be fuel injected, ABS and much newer. No more taken on older projects.
Thank for the help.
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Well, here is what I have done today:
Pulled the carbs, again, cleaned the jets, ports etc.... no gum on the inside but it took a few squirts in 3 and 4 to get the cleaner to squirt freely through the mixture holes taking extra care not to get anything dear the diaphragms as Steve noted. Thanks to luck I wasn't spraying anything up into the, yesterday. So not I am will put it all back together later and hope for the best. If that doesn't work I have a new bike shop that just opened up down the road that just may have a bike to work on.
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A couple oz per 5-6 gal is enough. Any inexpensive non-synthetic TCWlll two stroke oil will do the trick.
I've done this religiously since I had Steve wave his Jedi hand over my carbs a couple of years back. Short of forgetting to switch to prime once after a two or three week dead spell and having trouble starting (duh), I've never had a single carburation problem - not one in 30,000 miles.
I have a morning ritual, too, when I ride the bike to work in colder weather. When I pull out of my subdivision - a 1/2 mile initial warm up - I'll pull hard from about 2500RPM for just about a second: not to rev, just to lift the slides ('cos of the vacuum) and get them lubricated. It seems to eliminate any slight roughness I get just above idle after a cold night in a northern Midwest garage.
So yes, I too swear by the 2-stroke oil treatment.
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Sounds good.
I gave up on the "self repair" and brought the carbs in today. I tried to get the thing working and instead just gave up nearly 2 seasons of riding and more $ then if I would have had the thing rebuilt at the shop. Just having the carbs bench tested to try to narrow the issue down. All I need to do is have it run and it is sold and I may or may not get another bike and if I do it will be fuel injected with ABS, radio and big comfy seat like a BMW 1200 touring mike or the like..
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be careful, the shop isn't going to know my jetting, using the foam etc, and they're going to insist on returning the carbs to stock jetting.
I also have a bmw1200 lt, all i can say is you either need to turn into a very skilled mechanic, or have a LOT of money to keep it up. Steve
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Thanks Steve
All I need to do is to get it running and then it will be sold off
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The only thing that I am having checked is that there is fuel leaving the carbs as designed. I did not ask for anything beyond that. The bike has me beat and I just want it out of here and I hope that if this gets it to start them I have it sold for $1500 w/o most of the options.
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see the other post you have... this double posting isn't conducive to problem solving.
Send them to Steve, and have him look at them, and maybe run them on his bike.
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Here's some interesting info on epoxy.
Y'all might know I had a high velocity ported head on my bike for years. I had partially filled the intake port with JBWeld to reshape the port. well after about 5 years, the epoxy was breaking down from the cleaning agents in ethanol fuel, and I had to replace the head. I did this early 2013. Of course there was epoxy in the combustion chambers, piston top, and back up into the carb throat forward of the butterfly. I meticulously cleaned all of it from the cylinder / pistons, and carbs. Of course the new head was immaculately clean.
So fast forward to yesterday. I'm doing some fine tune jetting on Shoodaben, and had to pull the carbs. guess what's all built up in the front throat of the carbs? you guessed it, JBWeld. I don't know where it's coming from, but obviously carried back to the carbs by reversion pulses. I cleaned it all up, but still, this stuff is tenacious and seemingly impossible to get rid of.
My advise is to be very very careful with choosing tank sealer epoxies, as most of them were formulated before ethanol fuel and today's cleaning agents. Seems like an accident waiting to happen.
BTW, if you're interested in the some hotrod work, here's a video of the ported heads, pistons, etc. Cool stuff for hotrodders - Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIR2eEqeSiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIR2eEqeSiM)
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'My advise is to be very very careful with choosing tank sealer epoxies, as most of them were formulated before ethanol fuel and today's cleaning agents. Seems like an accident waiting to happen.'
Steve, do you have a recommendation on viable sealers?
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I did use the KBS system that Murph sells as a PM for shoodaben. I gave it over a month to dry though. I have had no issues in the last 2 or 3 years since I did it. Steve
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Thanks, I've got an old bmw tank that needs attention.
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I used the KBS as well and about a week++ to dry. All kinds of fun I guess
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for the sake of insanity I will do updates on my other post from this point on. Sorry about driving people nuts I thought that it would be better to list this as a different issue but... thanks