Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: cugsy on March 19, 2014, 02:23:16 PM
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Apologies for asking what might be a simple and straight forward question. I can't find an answer in the forum. And I've been away for a few months. No bike riding because of poxy arthritis. Summat and nowt as they say over here.
Anyway, I finally got out with the bike yesterday for a 50 mile bimble. One of the things that always surprised me was the bike wanting to understeer on big sweeping bends. I took it to the good bike shop I go to and we got to talking. The easiest thing to do was change the fork oil - tyres and pressures are fine. But the fork oil might be shite and need changing. OK, says I and took home a litre of 10W. First surprise - no drain plug for the forks. So I need to drip them out and pour the oil out. there is conflicting advice over the way to remove the top plug. Do I back off all of the preload and undo the top 19mm plug? If so, do I still have air to bleed from the top of the fork? The bike is supposed to be a 2002 model but big george has told me its probably a 1999...
Thanks in advance folks John
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Loosen the pinch bolts on the upper tripple tree as they can squeeze the tube down a bit (and possibly) grip the top plug.
Then take the preload off the tube.
Lastly remove the Upper Plug.
(Should be no air pressure inside but the spring can shoot it across the room if your not paying attention.
NOTE: I prefer to use a socket and speed handle to remove the top plug.
(As you said) Unfortunately there is no drain screws, so you can suck out oil and flush, or remove the tubes and dump..
Ride safe, Ted
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Good enough for me Ted. ta
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Assuming you still have the progressive rate springs, while you're in there, cut off 5" of the close-wound coils at the end of the springs and replace it with SD40 PVC pipe and washers to make up the difference (to bring them back into spec). I think the washers can be about 1-1/8" outside diameter. You may consider trading your oil for 15w (unless you're lighter than most). You will get a much better ride and handling.
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As far as I know the bike is standard. I'm a tubby too..just a teeny bit over 200lbs...just ..sort of..I'll try a couple of options. 1- 10w first 2- 15w and then maybe chop the springs ..
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Just a little tidbit. Make sure there's a jack under the engine before you remove the fork caps.
Rick
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Just a little tidbit. Make sure there's a jack under the engine before you remove the fork caps.
Good point! You may want to also use a rachet-strap to keep the centerstand pulled forward by hooking it to the stand and the lower fairing frame (or something else reasonably sturdy). Doesn't have to be real tight, just enough so it can't be folded back up. You wouldn't want it to crash to the ground without the front wheel and forks on. I always do this when I change the front tire.
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When you have everything apart, mark your fork cap/plug so you can tell where the threads begin when you have a wrench on it. Then mark the fork where the receiving threads begin. I used a paint pen. When you reassemble, line the marks up then turn the cap ever so slightly CCW. Push down hard till the cap and fork mate and then twist CW. Your threads should grab on the first twist of you wrist. This is especially helpful if you do cut your springs since you'll need greater force to compress during reassembly. BTW - I'm in the 160 lbs range, cut 3" off the springs, used 15W oil and I'm very pleased with the results.
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As usual, this isn't straight forward. By the way,thanks for the advice about safety fellas but I've been doing this for 35 years and still got 9 1/5 fingers..
Anyway, top plug out - no movement from the spring. Took out the top washer (preload spacer) and 8" long ali tube...duh! Wassat for? then a short 8" spring and another very thin (pointlessly thin) spacer. And thats it - apart from about 150ml of black shite posing as oil. Has someone already fiddled with this fork set-up? Anyone got a pic of the post 96 set up? John
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In a pinch, or even whenever, you can count on the forum for all your answers, but the best advice is after you are finished with this job, go out and get a Kawasaki shop manual. Best thing I ever did, combined with a Clymers manual its a real help as the Kawasaki manual tends to lean towards a mechanics way of doing things as it assumes you know already how to get to a part or assembly to work on another part or assembly.
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The manual I have is in pdf form (from George I fink!) and it says Kawasaki heavy Industries at the bottom. I assume thats the big K themselves. The diagram of the forks doesn't tie in with what i found or what I expected. I can't cut 3 inches off what ain't there..
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Sounds like something odd was done to your fork springs. I think the spacer is correct, but not the short spring. Perhaps it was cut in half and the other piece is still in there? I think the spring should be in the neighborhood of 18"? I don't have the late model so I can't tell you for sure. I added a pic that shows the stock length from a late model. I'm pretty sure they are unaltered OEM progressive springs.
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Nope - nothing else in there because the forks are hanging upside down draining just like yours...sans fork brace though. Very odd. Should there be an 8-10" tube ? Funny what you find :-\
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Took out the top washer (preload spacer) and 8" long ali tube...duh! Wassat for? then a short 8" spring and another very thin (pointlessly thin) spacer. And thats it - apart from about 150ml of black shite posing as oil. Has someone already fiddled with this fork set-up? Anyone got a pic of the post 96 set up? John
Sounds very similar to my Racetech setup. The manual states standard spring length for A1 - A8 is 514mm with service limit of 504mm (page 12-9), after market springs are much shorter. I have Racetech springs and the aluminium spacer was cut to 175mm long to acheive desired preload. I have emulators so without them the spacer would be about 20mm(?) longer, that's nearly the 8" you speak of. Hope this helps.
Regards, Russell
PS Just noticed your bike is A13, manual states spring length 543.3mm with service limit of 533mm.
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Thanks Russ. I'll take a pic and show you later. About the ali tube, does it have manufacturer markings? I mean,you can't just bung a bit of pipe in there...can you?
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Took this quick pic of what was in both forks. Both spring and tube are 260mm. About 200ml of oil came out. According to the frame number mine is an A17 which ties in with the 2002 registration plate.
The book says something strange about oil quantity - 388ml (320 ml at change) EH?
Whats the consensus chaps? John
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oops....forgot the pic
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WOW! Never saw a spring that short and a spacer that long in a Concours ? That IS different.
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Somehow, that doesn't make me feel any better. :yikes: Oh well, it can't be any worse with new oil in them. I'll have a guess...... 8)
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Cugsy, that spring is so short that I would be concerned with spring bind.
It looks like a stocker that has been "seriously" cut down.
I'm not familiar with the RaceTech Emulators.
Possibly they use an ultra short spring, but I don't think so.
Assuming that is a stock spring that has been cut down, the front end should be really stiff?
Makes me think the bike was set up for a really heavy rider.
I think at this point; I would take the forks apart for an inspection. (to see if the forks have been extensively modified)
I would get my biker friends (ie: Boomer/Hans/anyone) to send me a stock set
I would modify a stock set by removing the 5 1/2", or buy aftermarket springs.
When you reassemble, don't worry about the volume of oil.
dump oil in each fork leg (specified volumn plus more)
exercise the fork to get the air bubbles out
compress the upper tube (spring removed)
**suck the excess oil until it reaches a desired level
set the oil level to a measured level (I recommend 6 1/2")
** If you don't have a tool to suck the oil out, you can build a cheap tool, by using a Turkey baster and a section of hose.
Ride safe, Ted
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Ted, I've cleaned the springs and tubes put 320ml of 10w oil in. I'm going to take her for a bimble tomorrow. I remember every time I went down the farm track that it felt like the bike was bottoming out - ie; no travel. Forks are back in and preload is half way. I would prefer a normal set of springs in there and I'll see what's available. Cheers mate.
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bimble
Gotta love you Brits and what you've done with the language. :chugbeer:
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We had it first..sort of..well,the saxons,celts,picts and romans paved the way. Bimble - to ride like a tw*t in car traffic. Thassa proppa defernishun too. 8)
On a serious note Hagon do progressive springs for about £80. I'll see what this set up is like first. I want it sorted before the TT in may/june.......zoomm....
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Zoooooommm zoom round the country twisties like a new(ish) bike. Wheeeeee...zap powie...cruising at a ton on the big roads. Much better :yikes:
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Doesn't sound like a bimble to me. ;)
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....well...it was natural progression to a good scratchin' session.
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I run Spectro 40W fork oil with my Sonic 1.2's and gold emulators.
The 40w is still not enough to properly dampen the rebound.
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On a serious note Hagon do progressive springs for about £80.
Performance springs are straight rate, I wouldn't bother with progressive as all the soft section is usually used up taking the bike off centre stand and siting on it. Your setup may be home made. Next time it's apart look at the spring ends to see if the ends look different which would indicate a cut spring.
We weigh about the same. My setup (Racetech spec) is 1.0kg/mm springs, 35mm preload, 15wt oil filled to 150mm from top of fork with forks compressed and spring out. I also have gold valve emulators. I have made one change and that is using ATF instead 15wt oil. This setup works very well and even impresses those on new lighter bikes.
Regards, Russell
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An 8" front spring still sounds way to short to have any type of decent front suspension. It would think it would be stiff as a board or bottom out a lot. Have you rode anyone elses bike? Most of the time the front spring is at least 16" to 20", then add the spacers to get the exact required length for the fork assembly. A spacer is typically added so the same spring can be used across several (many) different models. Rear springs are usually 6" to 12" depending on dual shock or mono.
But, maybe you have some after-market set-up and everything is OK.
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Well the curious thing is that its had 5 owners since 2002. The last lad 'said' it had been serviced at a decent bike shop and I saw the receipt. Most of that I've since found out is bollocks. Either that or Stevie Wonder was working in the workshop that day.
I do tend to do about 90% of my own mechanicing...er...work. As the last owner didn't mention or know about the forks I can only assume that it was like that before. Gawd knows when then? I could find some forks on Fleabay but apart from banging my nuts on the tank when it hits a pothole the suspension feels better....probably just the new oil. It does show how bad and soggy the old rear shock is though. A nice new one would help but I don't have £300 (a bazillion dollars at the current rate). Later maybe. john
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If the forks aren't to your liking, and aren't correct, maybe you could find an OEM set from a forum member near you for cheap and start over? Otherwise, get a set of "straight-rate" RaceTechs (or other brand) if you are looking for a performance and handling increase, they are pretty affordable. If you are looking for a for cushioned ride just for cruising, get some progressives.
Murphs sells a kit for about $25 to change the shock fluid, but I do believe you are over the pond. Go to your local bike shop or order online some shock fluid - NOT fork oil. They are not the same thing. The shock holds about a perfect 8oz after it is drained. Warming the shock up helps it drain out. A small baster of some sort makes it easier to get the fluid back in. You can't really "pour" it in, it has to be injected. Also, if you have never taken the shock off before, be very careful with the black plastic 1" adjuster - they are prone to break or fall off later after a reinstall. I would suggest when reinstalling it, put a little RTV (or lock-tite) on it so it is glued to the treaded rod.
BTW, I'm 200lbs and run 5" cut stock springs with a PVC spacer up front with Belray 15w oil and 15w fluid in the rear shock set on "2".
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Just me nitpicking but here goes. Most think the original springs are progressive but in actuality they are Dual Rate. One half of the spring has a 0.7 kg/mm while the other half is 1.7 kg/mm without any progression between them. Read more about the C10 suspension and just about everything else in the C10 FAQs.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=18.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=18.0)
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Elvin, you're exactly right. That's why the early models handle so goofy with the dual rate springs. The first part compresses too easily, then the second half can work. That's why you get a serious nose-dive each time you use the front brake.
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Academic now lads - bikes up for sale in the UK. Bad news from HR at work. :-\
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Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck Buddy!
Ride safe, Ted
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Academic now lads - bikes up for sale in the UK. Bad news from HR at work. :-\
Has the use of motorcycles by employed individuals been banned in the United Kingdom?
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Nope - they might try that one day BUT that will start a very violent revolution.
The bastards have decided to terminate my employment due to my being off long term ill - caused by them I might add. funny that - its the end of the month too...
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Ouch! Sorry to hear that. Hopefully a bigger and better opportunity will come your way quick.
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I still have the DR650 but blatting round the IOM at the TT on that seems a bit girly
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I still have the DR650 but blatting round the IOM at the TT on that seems a bit girly
No shame in riding a DR650, one of the toughest bikes ever made. Very impressive history with that can/has been done with it.
I assume you know this website: http://drriders.com/ (http://drriders.com/)
Bad luck with the job.
Regards, Russell