Author Topic: Trac Control - the Anti ABS thread (dark matter) (Read 5975 times)

stewart · « **on:** October 18, 2011, 01:48:22 PM »

I had a track day yesterday which was a blast. The day started out real cold, so everone was warned to be careful and to lower pressures and let their tires warm up. Even with that advise several riders downed their bikes during the day, one almost every session before the end of the day.

This got me thinking, I've only ever had K-act engage on gravel or wet lines, metal when I hammered it off the line. So I set about trying to get it engage in a corner and I couldn't. I was running on the edge of my tires and powering up from 2nd to 3rd gear..pushing hard I thought. At the end of each run my PR3's were looking well worn.

So the question is....how hard do you really need to push to break traction? And once you do, in a corner, it the k-act too abrupt?

Thoughts?

Mister Tee · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2011, 02:22:15 PM »

I haven't tracked my C14 so I don't know specifically but on a sportbike I will wheely in a corner before rear wheel traction breaks.

That said, wheelies MAY cause traction control to to kick in.

I've pushed my C14 pretty hard in the twisties though, and I've never noticed it to kick in. I've had it kick in a few times on hard straight launches though, with the OEM tires.

stevewfl · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2011, 02:38:51 PM »

Traction control measures front and rear wheel speeds for differences and the computer adjusts accordingly.

gonzosc1 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2011, 02:41:56 PM »

that is a good question and I can only go from what I've seen on moto gp races. I think its a 50/50 between front and rear breaking loose in a turn. but hard to say for sure what was caused by the tire or was there contact with another ride in the turn.
it does seem to me that a rear tire breaks loose more from oil or other stuff on the track more then anything else, but we are talking about the pros here.
as someone else said, I see more wheelies from hard accel then rear tires bracking loose in a turn. I've run fairly hard on the dragon but by no means like pro. I have never had the rear come close to breaking loose but have felt the front tire slip a bit(connti Motions) stock 021 tire was like glue compared to that with no feeling of slippage.
anyway I think the traction control was meant more for bad or wet roads on the C14. but I think it plays a big part on the zx10 where one would be able to go in and come out of a turn hotter then with the c14 or the zx14.
zx10 has 10 traction control settings, zx14 only 3, don't know what settings the c14 has!

lather · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2011, 02:47:12 PM »

if your wheelieing you have great rear traction but I think some of the racebikes have wheelie control built in, don't know about the C14. My guess is that on a dry track you would have to push like a wild man or a pro to slide the rear with the throttle. 1, tracks usually have grippy pavement, 2 the C14 has a lot of weight on a wide tire and 3 the power curve is too gradual. I've done about 25 track days on an SV650 which also has a gradual power curve and I could never slide the rear unless the track was wet or I had mud on the tire from an offtrack excursion.

stevewfl · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2011, 03:27:15 PM »

Quote from: stevewfl on October 18, 2011, 02:38:51 PM

Traction control measures front and rear wheel speeds for differences and the computer adjusts accordingly.

^^^^that, no matter what atmospheric conditions are going on. Wheelie, turning, launching at red line in wet grass, track, up a steep gravel driveway.

kumpel · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2011, 08:50:00 PM »

The only time I break traction is when I am not on the track. Got my 2010 out to Grattan twice this year and had a great time. Went to W. Virginia a couple of weekends ago and thought I was going to loose it when I powered out of tight right hander because there was some morning moisture on the road surface. I think you really have to find a a shiny spot on the track to break traction on this bike.

See ya!

stewart · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2011, 07:15:06 AM »

Thank to all for the feedback and input, helps me put what I experienced into context.

Stewart

rtarp1 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2011, 09:48:31 AM »

can not wheelie with traction control on. i sometimes forget to turn it off when i want to wheelie and it shuts me right down as soon as the front tire leaves the pavement. very abruptly too, slamming me almost into the windscreen

jjsC6 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2011, 10:00:16 AM »

Quote from: rtarp1 on October 19, 2011, 09:48:31 AM

can not wheelie with traction control on. i sometimes forget to turn it off when i want to wheelie and it shuts me right down as soon as the front tire leaves the pavement. very abruptly too, slamming me almost into the windscreen

Exactly. On a bike that only has traction control (and not wheelie control) a wheelie looks the same to the computer as a spinning back tire. As the front tire comes off the ground, it immediately starts turning slower than the back tire, so the bike reduces power thinking the back tire is spinning.

As someone said above, I don't think the C14 has the sophisticated traction control as a pure sport bike designed for the track. When you are at full lean, the parameters for reducing power when breaking traction are likely different than when the bike is upright. I've read, but can't confirm, that ABS reacts differently when leaned over as well.

Another point to consider is that when riding on the street, you are more likely to loose traction in a curve due to gravel, sand, water etc. At that point your slide is lateral, not the same as a spinning tire - so don't think that traction control will bail you out in those conditions.

rtarp1 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2011, 10:16:59 AM »

yeah i dont think traction control would bail me out in a turn consistently. it would react faster than me so as to minimize the possiblity of the dreaded panic overcorrection (i hope) but i dont want to find out.

Whatever · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2011, 01:40:01 PM »

Me thinks that if you got K-Trac to engage powering out of a turn it would almost surely prevent you from low siding.

stevewfl · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2011, 02:15:29 PM »

Quote from: Whatever on October 19, 2011, 01:40:01 PM

Me thinks that if you got K-Trac to engage powering out of a turn it would almost surely prevent you from low siding.

Can't hurt.

stewart · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2011, 07:32:19 PM »

I agree.

When it has engaged in the past on wet roads over manhole covers etc...I recall it being very smooth, no abrupt power cut off.

When I raised the front wheel a few months ago fully loaded bags, E55 and wife..it cut the power off abruptly and then resumed.

I think the front wheel speed sensor plays a critial role in regulating how it behaves.

As for race bikes I've read a few articles and their traction control is extremely complex, many sensors, lots of math to take into account the act of racing.

martin_14 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:17:50 AM »

Quote from: gonzosc1 on October 18, 2011, 02:41:56 PM

that is a good question and I can only go from what I've seen on moto gp races. I think its a 50/50 between front and rear breaking loose in a turn. but hard to say for sure what was caused by the tire or was there contact with another ride in the turn.
it does seem to me that a rear tire breaks loose more from oil or other stuff on the track more then anything else, but we are talking about the pros here.
as someone else said, I see more wheelies from hard accel then rear tires bracking loose in a turn. ...

Actually, a tire has a longitudinal grip and a lateral grip, and a both are combined in a non-linear way that can be plotted as an ellipse (it is not, but for the explanation's sake will suffice). Basically, if you demand tons of lateral grip (like in a curve) there aren't much reserves of longitudinal force to be developed by the tire, and it starts slipping. When the tire grip capabilities are saturated (the combination of lateral and longitudinal grip), it breaks loose. Some have a tippy plot (Michelins Pilot Power comes to mind), some much gentler, but what you have to remember is not to open gas too much on a curve, since your grip reserve is already being used. In a curve, and as long as you don't panic and brake (demanding longitudinal grip and therefore constraining lateral grip), the front tire has tons of grip to offer.

stewart · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2011, 07:54:57 AM »

Quote from: martin_14 on October 20, 2011, 02:17:50 AM

Actually, a tire has a longitudinal grip and a lateral grip, and a both are combined in a non-linear way that can be plotted as an ellipse (it is not, but for the explanation's sake will suffice). Basically, if you demand tons of lateral grip (like in a curve) there aren't much reserves of longitudinal force to be developed by the tire, and it starts slipping. When the tire grip capabilities are saturated (the combination of lateral and longitudinal grip), it breaks loose. Some have a tippy plot (Michelins Pilot Power comes to mind), some much gentler, but what you have to remember is not to open gas too much on a curve, since your grip reserve is already being used. In a curve, and as long as you don't panic and brake (demanding longitudinal grip and therefore constraining lateral grip), the front tire has tons of grip to offer.

Martin thanks for the input and confirmation of my lay mans understanding. A key point I've learnt during rider training and these track day sessions where the instructors share wisdom, is two rules. 1) Finish all your breaking before you turn in and 2) Finish your turn and get the bike pointed in the right direction before you start to power on using a ratcheting smooth incremental approach, ie: don't whack the throttle open.

I have no problem with applying throttle and getting the power on, my objective of this thread was to gauge how much I could continue to push it and get some insight from others. But I must be honest that I can be challenged with breaking into a corner if I'm pushing it...mostly because I either missed a break point or missed judged the corner itself on the open road. Lots to practice and learn over time.

Rhino · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:37:14 AM »

I've only had traction control kick in once on dry, clean pavement. That was at sea level in a straight line and I whacked it open in 1st at about 6,000 rpm. I've never done it leaned over but I would think it would kick in if you got heavy handed in a turn in 1st or 2nd.

It did save my a$$ once in the wet. I was following an FJR out of a round about on a wet day and with the throttle only slightly cracked. I stupidly went over a wide cross walk paint stripe leaned over. I'm pretty sure I would have low sided without the KTRC. Those are the only times I've had the traction control kick in unintended. It paid for itself on the wet paint stripe.

DaveO · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:41:35 PM »

Quote from: rtarp1 on October 19, 2011, 09:48:31 AM

can not wheelie with traction control on. i sometimes forget to turn it off when i want to wheelie and it shuts me right down as soon as the front tire leaves the pavement. very abruptly too, slamming me almost into the windscreen

and this feature is desirable?
Sorry I dont get it.

DaveO · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:45:39 PM »

Quote from: stewart on October 20, 2011, 07:54:57 AM

A key point I've learnt during rider training and these track day sessions where the instructors share wisdom, is two rules. 1) Finish all your breaking before you turn in and 2) Finish your turn and get the bike pointed in the right direction before you start to power on using a ratcheting smooth incremental approach, ie: don't whack the throttle open.

Im with you stewart.
One thing Ive learned from reading these motorcycle forums is that people get a little carried away when they start talking about their riding skills. Fantasy mostly,and usually comes from people that have never been near a track.

jjsC6 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2011, 05:58:52 PM »

Quote from: stewart on October 20, 2011, 07:54:57 AM

Martin thanks for the input and confirmation of my lay mans understanding. A key point I've learnt during rider training and these track day sessions where the instructors share wisdom, is two rules. 1) Finish all your breaking before you turn in and 2) Finish your turn and get the bike pointed in the right direction before you start to power on using a ratcheting smooth incremental approach, ie: don't whack the throttle open.

I have no problem with applying throttle and getting the power on, my objective of this thread was to gauge how much I could continue to push it and get some insight from others. But I must be honest that I can be challenged with breaking into a corner if I'm pushing it...mostly because I either missed a break point or missed judged the corner itself on the open road. Lots to practice and learn over time.

The instructors basically told you to coast through the turns on a track? I promise you that no professional or proficient amateur racer follows that advice. Also, if you are pointed the right direction before "you start to power on" why not wack the throttle?

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Author Topic: Trac Control - the Anti ABS thread (dark matter) (Read 5975 times)