Oil analysis

[okxd45]

Yes. I believe 2% would be considered too much, and in a C-14 that would only be about 3 fl. oz. of gasoline in the crankcase oil. The mileage does not really matter because the gasoline should be driven out of the oil fast enough so you only have very recent gasoline still in the crankcase oil, assuming the engine is coming up to full operating temperature every time it is started.

Just a thought but be careful how and when you measure the oil level. The oil level in the sight glass of my C-14 climbs quite a bit overnight so if you check the oil level in the morning it may be higher than it was before only because the engine has had time to fully drain.

Brian

Oh crap, I have been checking the next day! The manual is with the bike in the shop. So how long after the bike is turned off do you check the oil?

[VirginiaJim]

Owner's manual says several minutes....

[okxd45]

Owner's manual says several minutes....

Well that's open for interpretation. Of course the translation from Japanese isn't the greatest either. Who knows what the original intent may have been. Either way, I'm not sure that's the problem. The dealership did the last oil change and I remember checking it the next.day, and the level was correct. I'll post what I find out from the dealership. Thanks everyone for the input.......and yes Steve is right.......original thread has skewed somewhat! I'll post in a new topic.



 

[B.D.F.]

It does not matter how long you wait, only that you realize that the level will climb over time (overnight). It will change what we believe is the oil level in the engine. Same thing with parking with very small changes in left / right tilt, the oil level will change an amazing amount according to the sight glass. My garage floor is uneven and the oil level in the sight glass will be all over the place depending on whatever very slight tilt the bike has at the moment.

8 fl. oz. is a LOT of gasoline to have in the oil on any correctly running engine, and especially modern types with fuel injection. I think there is a good likelihood that a relatively small change in reading the oil level would cause it to seem like the crankcase is 'gaining' fluid rather than the crankcase really having that much gasoline in it.

I just wanted to pass along the thought that often our perception of how much fluid is in any kind of container is really poor. I think if 10 people looked into a motorcycle fuel tank and guessed the level, there would be 11 mistakes :-)  I am sure your dealer will get to the bottom of it either way; if there is something wrong, it will be fixed under warranty.

Brian

Oh crap, I have been checking the next day! The manual is with the bike in the shop. So how long after the bike is turned off do you check the oil?

[okxd45]

It does not matter how long you wait, only that you realize that the level will climb over time (overnight). It will change what we believe is the oil level in the engine. Same thing with parking with very small changes in left / right tilt, the oil level will change an amazing amount according to the sight glass. My garage floor is uneven and the oil level in the sight glass will be all over the place depending on whatever very slight tilt the bike has at the moment.

8 fl. oz. is a LOT of gasoline to have in the oil on any correctly running engine, and especially modern types with fuel injection. I think there is a good likelihood that a relatively small change in reading the oil level would cause it to seem like the crankcase is 'gaining' fluid rather than the crankcase really having that much gasoline in it.


I just wanted to pass along the thought that often our perception of how much fluid is in any kind of container is really poor. I think if 10 people looked into a motorcycle fuel tank and guessed the level, there would be 11 mistakes :-)  I am sure your dealer will get to the bottom of it either way; if there is something wrong, it will be fixed under warranty.

Brian

I concur completely with the sight glass. I am not super confident with trying to get an accurate reading. The last time I held the.motorcycle with one hand as close to level ground as possible. Then I crouched down beside it to read the.glass. just a.very slight movement made a big difference in how it read. (just like Brian mentioned). That being said, I hope there is a simple explanation, or at least the dealer can find the problem.
 So if it was a leaky injector, would the dealership have an analyzer that could detect it?

[VirginiaJim]

I don't think there is a way other than tearing it down and looking at each one and then I'm not sure you could tell.  In this case, an oil analysis should be of value and at least give you some idea if you have cause to worry.  I wouldn't do one on these bikes just to do it but you have a valid concern.  At least you could take that to the dealer if the analysis shows something and you can post it here as well.

I take that back.  If they can pressurize the system without starting it and monitor the pressure, if there is a leak, I would think that the pressure would drop instead of holding steady.  The problem with all of this is that if they don't get the go ahead from Kawi it would be your nickel to have it looked at.  Course all you have to do is talk to the Service Mgr. and see what's what but if you had the oil analysis in hand then maybe that would be of some help in convincing them to start the diagnosis. 

[B.D.F.]

Yes, the test for a leaking injector (or any part of the fuel system) is to install a pressure gauge, turn the ign. on to let the fuel pump run for a short time (three seconds I think) and then watch the pressure to see if it drops. If it does, then something is leaking and if no fuel is seen outside, the leak must be one of the injectors. At that point they will probably pull all four injectors and have them tested at a specialty house but that is just my guess.

But as Jim said, the first thing to do is to see if you even have a problem with excessive fuel in the oil and that too is pretty easy to check. The very first thing is just to smell the oil- even a fairly small amount of gasoline will make the oil smell quite strongly of gasoline. Then a real oil analysis is in order, again as Jim already said.

Brian

<snip>

 So if it was a leaky injector, would the dealership have an analyzer that could detect it?

[stewart]

18 pg thread on my Blackberry, while drinking a Martini on the road.

Sounds a little like Analysis Paralysis. Let me know when the patient can walk again.

[Pokey]

First bike......this aint rocket science?

[stevewfl]

I have used seafoam a few times since I've had the bike, but not since my last oil change. Would 8oz of fuel in the oil after 1800 miles constitute a problem?

huh!?  I should read through this thread, I cannot figure out this post

[redbarber]

I had my oil analyzed when I had my Valkyrie, running Shell Rotella T full synthetic.  Found that I could run alot longer than I was on an oil change.  At 12-13 dollars/quart for full syn, I'd consider doing it again with the C14, but not until the warranty runs out.  Skipping mandatory service intervals is a great way to get your warranty claims denied.

I do hope that enough of you do this to build a meaningful database of oil life ranges under differing conditions.  It would be handy in the (after warranty) future.

[okxd45]

I'll be picking up my bike tomorrow. The dealer says that the bike runs fine and would not do so if it were  a major problem. They consulted with mother Kawi and they said the same. They mentioned that if the oil didn't get hot enough, that it could "condensate" and get a little fuel in the oil. The explanation sounded lame, but the bottom line is that they aren't willing to cover it. He suggested that I change the oil more often! Thinking this needs to be taken further up the food chain, but not sure where to start. If this doesnt go well, I will be looking to purchase my next bike from someone else. Maybe the FJR will get a nice update by then!   

[B.D.F.]

Has anyone done an oil analysis on the oil from this bike yet? Unless I missed something in this thread, no one has actually analyzed the oil in your engine- that really is the first thing to do if you suspect gasoline (or anything else) in the oil in an excessive amount. Just my opinion but it is not really correct to look into repairing things before an actual problem is found.

I believe your dealer is generally right about both of those things you mention- gasoline will collect over time in an engine where the crankcase does not get hot enough to drive the gasoline out of the oil by evaporation, and a correctly running engine <generally> should not produce enough gasoline in the crankcase to be concerned with.

But again, the first thing to do is to test the oil. Someone gave you a good idea about checking the way the oil wicks into a piece of paper, have you tried that yet? Does the oil stink of gasoline? Is it a lot thinner than the same oil is when it is new? After that, the thing to do is an oil analysis; they are not overly expensive and if you do find something wrong you can always present the bill for the analysis to the dealer later when the bike is repaired.

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong but I think it is better to take a logical approach before getting too worked up over this. Sure the dealer may have acted rather cavalierly but there are reasonable steps you can take to pursue this matter and conclude if you have a problem, and if so, how bad that problem is. You may then have to go to another dealer if you can, or go back to the same dealer and try being persuasive along with showing the results of the oil analysis if that shows significant gasoline contamination.

Best of luck and please do let us know how this goes.
Brian

I'll be picking up my bike tomorrow. The dealer says that the bike runs fine and would not do so if it were  a major problem. They consulted with mother Kawi and they said the same. They mentioned that if the oil didn't get hot enough, that it could "condensate" and get a little fuel in the oil. The explanation sounded lame, but the bottom line is that they aren't willing to cover it. He suggested that I change the oil more often! Thinking this needs to be taken further up the food chain, but not sure where to start. If this doesnt go well, I will be looking to purchase my next bike from someone else. Maybe the FJR will get a nice update by then!   

[okxd45]

Well I suppose when I change the oil next spring, I'll try the paper test with the used oil.  I'm really not that worked up about it, I plan on changing the oil every three or four thousand miles and ride the heck out of it!  But I'm not interested in having a test done. My new job is extremely demanding and I will barely have time time to ride, much less take the time and money to have a test done that the dealer should do. If they don't care then I don't either. I've got over 2 years of warranty left so I will ride hard and see what happens.
     I will add that the oil seemed especially runny after 1800 miles and smelled of fuel. Not in the mood to be logical at this point. Hopefully the engine will go to caca and mother Kawi will have to shell out the big bucks!  I do really appreciate your reply BTW!
     Sorry, but its been a rough few weeks with a move and new job; rant off.

[maxtog]

Skipping mandatory service intervals is a great way to get your warranty claims denied.

Owners are not required to take it to a dealer to have oil changes done on any vehicle (that I am aware of), so how would they (or the owner) prove that the oil was or was not being changed as mandated?

[martin_14]

Owners are not required to take it to a dealer to have oil changes done on any vehicle (that I am aware of), so how would they (or the owner) prove that the oil was or was not being changed as mandated?

invoice of oil purchases? That's the way it's handled usually with mechanically inclined people, or those who live really far away from the next dealer.

[T Cro ®]

I had my oil analyzed when I had my Valkyrie, running Shell Rotella T full synthetic.  Found that I could run alot longer than I was on an oil change.  At 12-13 dollars/quart for full syn, I'd consider doing it again with the C14, but not until the warranty runs out.  Skipping mandatory service intervals is a great way to get your warranty claims denied.
I do hope that enough of you do this to build a meaningful database of oil life ranges under differing conditions.  It would be handy in the (after warranty) future.

Another one of the FALSE Urban Myth that refuses to go away is that a Dealer or Manf must perform the "Service Intervals" or you risk voiding your warranty. This is complete and absolute BS...... As long as you have made reasonable effort to document that the service work was performed even if you did it yourself and made hand written notes in the back of your Owner's Manual you can't not be denied warranty work or have your warranty voided unless it can be proved that your work or lack of work is the cause of the RELATED failure.... To which it is the burden of the Dealer or Manf to prove that your work is the cause of the exact failure and not the other way around.

[T Cro ®]

Well I suppose when I change the oil next spring, I'll try the paper test with the used oil.  I'm really not that worked up about it, I plan on changing the oil every three or four thousand miles and ride the heck out of it!  But I'm not interested in having a test done. My new job is extremely demanding and I will barely have time time to ride, much less take the time and money to have a test done that the dealer should do. If they don't care then I don't either. I've got over 2 years of warranty left so I will ride hard and see what happens.
     I will add that the oil seemed especially runny after 1800 miles and smelled of fuel. Not in the mood to be logical at this point. Hopefully the engine will go to caca and mother Kawi will have to shell out the big bucks! I do really appreciate your reply BTW!
     Sorry, but its been a rough few weeks with a move and new job; rant off.

Great tude.....  Unless you purchase a specific test kit there is no backyard home brew test that is worth its weight in caca that you can perform that will definitively prove oil viscosity. The only test kit that I'm aware of is best described as an Inclined Race Track that you test your used oil against the same oil in new form to measure both time and distance traveled to which you will get either a pass or fail. Only a true oil analysis can give you the real viscosity numbers and due to the nature of my job I can promise you that YOU can not tell with any degree of accuracy the viscosity of said oils. Your Dealer is likely right in that you need to ride longer or change the oil more often as short rides are hard on any engine.

[Conrad]

Well I suppose when I change the oil next spring, I'll try the paper test with the used oil.  I'm really not that worked up about it, I plan on changing the oil every three or four thousand miles and ride the heck out of it!  But I'm not interested in having a test done. My new job is extremely demanding and I will barely have time time to ride, much less take the time and money to have a test done that the dealer should do. If they don't care then I don't either. I've got over 2 years of warranty left so I will ride hard and see what happens.
     I will add that the oil seemed especially runny after 1800 miles and smelled of fuel. Not in the mood to be logical at this point. Hopefully the engine will go to caca and mother Kawi will have to shell out the big bucks!  I do really appreciate your reply BTW!
     Sorry, but its been a rough few weeks with a move and new job; rant off.

"change the oil next spring"? Do you park your bike for the winter months? Leaving dirty oil in the bike is NOT recommended. Change it before you store it.

[redbarber]

Another one of the FALSE Urban Myth that refuses to go away is that a Dealer or Manf must perform the "Service Intervals" or you risk voiding your warranty. This is complete and absolute BS...... As long as you have made reasonable effort to document that the service work was performed even if you did it yourself and made hand written notes in the back of your Owner's Manual you can't not be denied warranty work or have your warranty voided unless it can be proved that your work or lack of work is the cause of the RELATED failure.... To which it is the burden of the Dealer or Manf to prove that your work is the cause of the exact failure and not the other way around.

T Cro, please note that I did not say "skipping mandatory service visits to your dealer", which appears to be what you responded to.  I said "service intervals".  I do my own oil changes.  And I expect that my warranty would be honored.  However if I chose to do my own changes, and chose to do them every 2 years or 30,000 miles, you can be sure that my warranty would not cover the engine if it suffered damage.  I hope this clears up what I was saying.
Respectfully,
Red