Author Topic: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link  (Read 17576 times)

Offline maxtog

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 04:21:23 PM »
Others have already mirrored my position, so I won't reply to any particular posting....
I am far more concerned with what is "right" or "wrong" than "legal" or "illegal".

I hope that we all know that it is illegal to download copyrighted material for which you do not have a license.  But what I was asserting is that it is also *wrong*, and stated the reasons why.

What ticked me off and set the tone of my initial reply was the OP's last sentence saying that "Information is useless if it's never shared!"  It is one thing to do something illegal.  And it is much worse doing something that is "wrong".  But that declaration implies that IT IS NOT WRONG and should be PROMOTED.

In my example of downloading a PDF that is not for sale for something I already PURCHASED in paper format- to the letter of the law, it is illegal.  But it is not "wrong"...  It deprives nobody of money or liberty (although the person posting/hosting is highly likely to be doing so).  I used that example to illustrate the difference between legality and morality.

Another good example of something illegal but not "wrong" or "immoral" not wearing a seatbelt or helmet by an adult.  Such laws remove liberty for an act that takes nobody else's liberty away.  It dictates what an adult is allowed to do with their own body in their own space.  As such, the law itself might be considered "wrong" or "immoral".  That said, I would *NEVER* ride a motorcycle without a helmet, or a car without a seatbelt on.  But I take great offense at the government telling me I have to do so.  Anyway, I digress and hear myself rambling.... I will shut up now.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline gPink

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 04:29:56 PM »
The safety nazis will say it is wrong and immoral not to wear a helmet or seatbelt due the burden on society the your becoming a veggie will cause. So your freedom is actually wrong and immoral.

ps I have a legally purchased factory manual for my '08 and would really like it in pdf. Anybody got a link?

Offline maxtog

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2011, 04:41:07 PM »
The safety nazis will say it is wrong and immoral not to wear a helmet or seatbelt due the burden on society the your becoming a veggie will cause. So your freedom is actually wrong and immoral.

Right you are.  But using their "logic", almost EVERY freedom we have could have some type of potential, possible, theoretical, deleterious effect "on society".  So there should be or should be no freedom at all (that would really sit well with Libertarians and Constitutionalists).  I don't want to side-track the thread too much- I debated if I should use the helmet thing at all in the post, but it is really great example.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Mister Tee

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2011, 04:44:06 PM »
Kawasaki has to produce a service manual anyway for their products.  It costs them to publish hard copies of it.  It does not cost them anything to provide it for download on PDF.  I am a firm believer the service manual should come with the vehicle in one form or the other.

As an aside, electronic copyright laws are very esoteric by nature and unenforceable in most of the world.  I have zero ethical issues.  Kind of like if there are radio transmissions crossing your personal space, you are free to receive them.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2011, 05:18:45 PM »
With all due respect, I disagree with the helmet analogy. A motorcycle rider that is injured will invariably be treated whether or not that person has any type of insurance. So the cost is passed onto society at large. One person can have an effect on society as a whole without society having any choice in the matter.

A copy of a book that is held after the book itself is purchased has no wide- ranging effect on anyone but the copyright holder, and even the copyright holder is not really losing anything or being penalized (assuming the book was purchased). It is a private transaction between two parties, the person having the electronic copy and the publisher.

Of course this is all just a conversation about a particular point; in reality, the reason Kawasaki would not want the electronic copy "loose" in the public domain is because it will be transferred among different people. What is really happening is that at least some people will use the electronic version in lieu of the printed version simply because it is free. And that, of course, is outright theft without much wiggle room.

Brian

Others have already mirrored my position, so I won't reply to any particular posting....
I am far more concerned with what is "right" or "wrong" than "legal" or "illegal".

I hope that we all know that it is illegal to download copyrighted material for which you do not have a license.  But what I was asserting is that it is also *wrong*, and stated the reasons why.

What ticked me off and set the tone of my initial reply was the OP's last sentence saying that "Information is useless if it's never shared!"  It is one thing to do something illegal.  And it is much worse doing something that is "wrong".  But that declaration implies that IT IS NOT WRONG and should be PROMOTED.

In my example of downloading a PDF that is not for sale for something I already PURCHASED in paper format- to the letter of the law, it is illegal.  But it is not "wrong"...  It deprives nobody of money or liberty (although the person posting/hosting is highly likely to be doing so).  I used that example to illustrate the difference between legality and morality.

Another good example of something illegal but not "wrong" or "immoral" not wearing a seatbelt or helmet by an adult.  Such laws remove liberty for an act that takes nobody else's liberty away.  It dictates what an adult is allowed to do with their own body in their own space.  As such, the law itself might be considered "wrong" or "immoral".  That said, I would *NEVER* ride a motorcycle without a helmet, or a car without a seatbelt on.  But I take great offense at the government telling me I have to do so.  Anyway, I digress and hear myself rambling.... I will shut up now.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Khrome

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2011, 06:10:34 PM »
I am a firm believer the service manual should come with the vehicle in one form or the other.

Ditto.
Khrome 2011 C14...09 Kaw Voyager...08 Yam WR250X...07 Yam FJR...06 Suz M109...04 Yam RoadStar...03 Kaw ZZR 1200... 02Kaw ZRX1200...01 KTM LC4...00 Kaw KLR 650...99 Kaw C10...98 Kaw ZRX 1100...94 Kaw Zephyr 750...85 Kaw 454LTD...79 Honda XL250S

Offline fmwhit

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2011, 06:37:34 PM »
although I don't own a newer c 14, I do own an older one that I already have a service manual for.  I find it interesting to look at manuals for later units to see how things have changed.  This in general is not worth the cost of a service manual but certainly worth the time of a download.

Offline maxtog

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2011, 06:44:55 PM »
With all due respect, I disagree with the helmet analogy. A motorcycle rider that is injured will invariably be treated whether or not that person has any type of insurance. So the cost is passed onto society at large.

I knew that analogy would get me in trouble.  :)

Insurance is *not* a valid reason to remove freedom.  With that logic, riding without a proper armored jacket is far more dangerous than without- so it should be illegal to ride without one.  But motorcycle riding is dangerous- far more dangerous than cars, regardless of what you do.  So it would cost society a lot less to simply make motorcycles illegal.  So we should also make alcohol, tobacco, fatty foods, sugary foods, skateboards, firearms, pit bulls, nail guns, (etc) illegal too....

Quote
Of course this is all just a conversation about a particular point; in reality, the reason Kawasaki would not want the electronic copy "loose" in the public domain is because it will be transferred among different people.

100% correct.  That is exactly why.  BECAUSE people do the wrong thing, Kawasaki reacts in a way that makes other people suffer (like those of us who purchase the manual but also want access to the electronic version because it is more convenient to use).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2011, 06:49:46 PM »
Kawasaki has to produce a service manual anyway for their products.  It costs them to publish hard copies of it.  It does not cost them anything to provide it for download on PDF.  I am a firm believer the service manual should come with the vehicle in one form or the other.

Those are both "rationalizations".  It costs them to make the manual- no matter what format it is in.  The printed book probably costs them $4 on top of all their other costs allocated to it (writers, engineers, typists, editors, etc, etc).  It sells for $80 or something (I forgot the amount I paid).  And yes, they need to produce a manual, regardless.  While I TOTALLY agree with you that it SHOULD come with the bike, they chose to do what most companies do and sell it to defray some of their costs in making and distributing it.  It is not unreasonable to do so.  Not thinking it should cost money doesn't make it OK to obtain it for free, when it is something being sold.

Now... what if they didn't sell a manual to the public AT ALL?  That would be a far more interesting argument.  But that isn't the case.  They do, and people who "steal" it by downloading the PDF without buying the manual are those who just don't want to pay (technically it is not "stealing", it is copyright violation).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2011, 06:55:22 PM »
although I don't own a newer c 14, I do own an older one that I already have a service manual for.  I find it interesting to look at manuals for later units to see how things have changed.  This in general is not worth the cost of a service manual but certainly worth the time of a download.

That is another famous rationalization.  The "Well, I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so they aren't losing potential revenue"  one :)

Here are some more:  "It is overpriced, so I don't think I should have to pay that much."   "I only use it occasionally."  "It is a manual for an older model than what I own, so I don't think I have to buy it."  "It was offered to me and I didn't want to seem ungrateful."  "I only needed it just to fix a problem that shouldn't have happened in the first place."  and the one from above- the "It should have come with the bike, so I don't feel I have to pay for it".

As a friend of mine likes to say:  "Whatever helps you sleep better at night"
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Kirby

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2011, 07:21:21 PM »
I just happened to be studying up on the final drive on this bike when this thread came up. You folks who do not have the paper manual are really missing out- nothing like curling up with a good book on the first day of fall.



While I was there I did a quick review of the copyright and sure enough, Kawasaki reserves all rights on the entire publication (no surprise there). I wonder if it would be OK to use the PDF copy if you held your fob while doing so?



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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2011, 07:37:06 PM »
I am afraid I may not have made my point clear- I was not addressing insurance (or any politically charged issue) but rather the fact that an individual can cause costly repercussions to society at large. Forget about insurance, it is the cost to all of society that means something. The same thing applies to all of our rights- they are modulated and sometimes infringed to protect society at large from the individual even at the expense of that individual's rights. Freedom of speech... but you cannot yell 'fire' in a crowded place. The right to keep and bear arms....but not weapons of mass destruction. Etc., etc.

As I said, it is a slippery slope and extremely difficult to modulate the needs of the one against the needs of the many. It is even more difficult when trying to adapt written laws to specific instances. Overall, I think we (the US) have done an outstanding job of that but I am an American and I like it here so I am biased.  ;D

Now for the disclaimer: this is NOT a political post. I am trying to address the finer points of negotiating life as it pertains to possessing a copy of the C-14 manual.

Brian




I knew that analogy would get me in trouble.  :)

Insurance is *not* a valid reason to remove freedom.  With that logic, riding without a proper armored jacket is far more dangerous than without- so it should be illegal to ride without one.  But motorcycle riding is dangerous- far more dangerous than cars, regardless of what you do.  So it would cost society a lot less to simply make motorcycles illegal.  So we should also make alcohol, tobacco, fatty foods, sugary foods, skateboards, firearms, pit bulls, nail guns, (etc) illegal too....

100% correct.  That is exactly why.  BECAUSE people do the wrong thing, Kawasaki reacts in a way that makes other people suffer (like those of us who purchase the manual but also want access to the electronic version because it is more convenient to use).
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline lt1

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2011, 08:32:40 PM »
<snip>Now for the disclaimer: this is NOT a political post. <snip>
Brian
Actually, it is a political post, and sadly, you are arguing from and on the wrong side. 

Best to let it drop.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2011, 08:43:03 PM »
I think you are reading something into my post(s) that isn't really there Clyde. I did not take a side, I was merely discussing the issue. Actually I do not have a particular opinion on what anyone / everyone should do regarding the downloading of the C-14 manual but I do find the topic interesting. The world is a complicated place and between unintended consequences and changing times, I think it is fascinating to watch the entire species navigate these issues.

Please elaborate on how you think I have chosen a side. Being reasonable adults, I would think we could discuss any topic, at least motorcycle topic, without rancor.

Brian



Actually, it is a political post, and sadly, you are arguing from and on the wrong side. 

Best to let it drop.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline lt1

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2011, 09:10:29 PM »
No rancor, but it is political.  The question is one of the Constitutionality of wealth transfers by the government to benefit some individuals at the expense of others.  Some feel that caring for the unfortunate or ill-prepared is a proper moral obligation, but is an unconstitutional legal obligation.  I would stand with those of that opinion.  Therefore, I feel that your argument about social costs may be pragmatic, but that it is fundamentally and basically flawed.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2011, 09:29:15 PM »
Thank you for the civil response.

Allow me to reply: you do not know my opinion on this matter as I have never expressed it, either in this thread or elsewhere on the 'Net. I believe  you are reading intent into my words that is simply not there.

The statement I made, or was trying to make, is that something like wearing a helmet does have consequences for society as a whole; I did not express an opinion on whether it was good or bad, or whether I am pro- helmet law or anti- helmet law. For that matter, I may not even have an opinion on the matter. But I do believe what I expressed was a logical and correct observational view, not political. Especially when viewed within the contest of this thread: wearing a helmet and the potential consequences to others who are nominally [not involved], and possessing a copy of a service manual which has no impact on anyone outside of the copyright holder and the person holding the intellectual material (legally or otherwise). Even the topic of wearing a helmet and / or helmet laws was not my choice, I was simply responding to someone else who made the analogy.

And I still have not expressed a political view.

Brian


No rancor, but it is political.  The question is one of the Constitutionality of wealth transfers by the government to benefit some individuals at the expense of others.  Some feel that caring for the unfortunate or ill-prepared is a proper moral obligation, but is an unconstitutional legal obligation.  I would stand with those of that opinion.  Therefore, I feel that your argument about social costs may be pragmatic, but that it is fundamentally and basically flawed.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline just gone

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2011, 09:36:33 PM »
I wonder if it would be OK to use the PDF copy if you held your fob while doing so?
It depends on where and with what you are holding the fob (such is the power of KIPASS).  And yes, the underlined word was a clue.  :D
----------------------------
OK, so if someone posts a link here to another site that is doing something illegal, then this site is in the wrong?
I mean if I tell you that such and such gas station is selling bootleg DVDs and I give you a map on how to get there
and I supply this information for free, and they are in fact selling bootleg DVDs,... have I broken the law? (not counting the
law of run-on sentences.  ::) )

Offline lt1

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2011, 10:08:36 PM »
Brian, you know that I like and respect you.  However, as I read and re-read your post, you have, indeed stated a political opinion.  By the mere conceding of the argument that freedoms have been infringed, and that you are pleased with that, you have indicated a position.  Perhaps not a fanatical, wild-eyed positions, but a concession that loss of freedom is inevitable or past correction, and that it is acceptable to go along to get along.  I understand political pragmatism, and would not say that it is always a bad thing.  But it still is a position, and it can often be read clearly, even if it retains plausible deniablity.

For better or worse, I've changed my tactics on these "pdf manual" threads.  It is much easier to let the mods and Mama Kaw handle it from the "legal" side.  If someone really wants to discuss the "moral" side, then it usually doesn't take too long to get the opposite points of view displayed and clarified. 

I let myself get drawn into the political side of the freedom/societal cost discussion, because many who claim to value freedom do not understand just how far they may have drifted from the basic tenets thereof.  As individuals and as nations, we have often traded freedom for security and comfort, to the extent that we find true freedom and responsibility almost foreign and often politically "incorrect" or unpopular.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2011, 11:02:17 PM »
Good post Clyde. Unfortunately it is late here and I cannot generate the kind of concentration I usually need but especially need now to discuss this matter with you (that is a compliment by the way). I have a fairly big day tomorrow riding to NY. But I would like to respond to this post in a day or two, assuming the thread is still here and available, because I think this is an important topic.

Brian

Brian, you know that I like and respect you.  However, as I read and re-read your post, you have, indeed stated a political opinion.  By the mere conceding of the argument that freedoms have been infringed, and that you are pleased with that, you have indicated a position.  Perhaps not a fanatical, wild-eyed positions, but a concession that loss of freedom is inevitable or past correction, and that it is acceptable to go along to get along.  I understand political pragmatism, and would not say that it is always a bad thing.  But it still is a position, and it can often be read clearly, even if it retains plausible deniablity.

For better or worse, I've changed my tactics on these "pdf manual" threads.  It is much easier to let the mods and Mama Kaw handle it from the "legal" side.  If someone really wants to discuss the "moral" side, then it usually doesn't take too long to get the opposite points of view displayed and clarified. 

I let myself get drawn into the political side of the freedom/societal cost discussion, because many who claim to value freedom do not understand just how far they may have drifted from the basic tenets thereof.  As individuals and as nations, we have often traded freedom for security and comfort, to the extent that we find true freedom and responsibility almost foreign and often politically "incorrect" or unpopular.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Conrad

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Re: 2011 C14 Service Manual Link
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2011, 05:14:53 AM »
I just happened to be studying up on the final drive on this bike when this thread came up. You folks who do not have the paper manual are really missing out- nothing like curling up with a good book on the first day of fall.



While I was there I did a quick review of the copyright and sure enough, Kawasaki reserves all rights on the entire publication (no surprise there). I wonder if it would be OK to use the PDF copy if you held your fob while doing so?



Kirby

Hey Kirby, the first day of fall isn't till Friday the 23rd. Try curling up with the PDF on the laptop instead.
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