Front engine mount bracket doesn't like up.... part duex

[B.D.F.]

I know the original thread was locked, and it really wasn't going anywhere but I would like to know how this turns out.

So if we can do this just a little bit more without any recriminations from anyone..... Steve, would you post here as to what you ended up doing with that motor mount?

Thanks,
Brian

[lather]

with pictures

[Sofa King]

and in lower case.

[B.D.F.]

Yep, you guys are encouraging Steve to come back fer sure....

 

I may have to e-mail him to find out how this ends (besides we never hear from Steve again....). 

Brian

with pictures

and in lower case.

[lt1]

Yep, you guys are encouraging Steve to come back fer sure....

 

I may have to e-mail him to find out how this ends (besides we never hear from Steve again....). 

Brian

And the problem with that is??

[B.D.F.]

I believe Steve brings useful information to the <virtual> table here on the forum. He might have gotten a little bit exasperated but then again, so have quite a few other members, hey Clyde?    Still, I believe he has done a good job of finding out how the engine mount system works on the bike, determined that that is not what is causing his problem (nor will that cure it) and further done a good job IMO of explaining to the rest of us what the rear engine mount DOES do and why it is there. I would really like to know how this turned out, what he did about the mount, and how it went back together, all in the intereest of building knowledge about the bike itself.

I am just suggesting we cut the guy a bit of slack and see if we can glean any more info. as to what the underlying problem is / was and how much of a 'tweak' it is going to take to fix it. We can always go back to bashing and abusing him later but I am hoping this is the time '....when again touched, as surely we will be, by the better angels of our nature.'  Paraphrased, A.Lincoln.

Brian

And the problem with that is??

[lather]

FWIW I had no intentions of discouraging Steve's participation and would welcome his return as this is a subject of interest to me since I apparently rode my C14 for a bunch of miles without my engine fully connected to the frame.

[C1xRider]

I believe Steve brings useful information to the <virtual> table here on the forum. He might have gotten a little bit exasperated but then again, so have quite a few other members, hey Clyde?    Still, I believe he has done a good job of finding out how the engine mount system works on the bike, determined that that is not what is causing his problem (nor will that cure it) and further done a good job IMO of explaining to the rest of us what the rear engine mount DOES do and why it is there. I would really like to know how this turned out, what he did about the mount, and how it went back together, all in the intereest of building knowledge about the bike itself.

I am just suggesting we cut the guy a bit of slack and see if we can glean any more info. as to what the underlying problem is / was and how much of a 'tweak' it is going to take to fix it. We can always go back to bashing and abusing him later but I am hoping this is the time '....when again touched, as surely we will be, by the better angels of our nature.'  Paraphrased, A.Lincoln.

Brian

From your statement, it sounds like you agree that loosening *both* rear mounts will have no effect on the ability to install the bolts in the front mount.  I asked if that had been tried, point blank, and did not get a clear "Yes, I tried it" as a reply.  From what I could tell, only one was loosened, and then re-tightened.

Until someone reproduces the alignment problem and actually tries the sequence as it is listed in the manual, and reports back here without any ambiguity that this was done and did not work, I doubt anyone will cut anyone else any slack.

I too would like to know how this turns out, though if reaming out the bolt hole is the fix Steve uses, I would be concerned.  When Kawasaki uses the term "stressed member" in relation to the frame and engine mounting, I have to wonder if they are using the word "stressed" quite literally.

[Sofa King]

I WAS JUST KIDDING AROUND. 

[VirginiaJim]

Guys, let's let this one simmer down for a bit as the tone is again changing for the worse.  I don't want to lock this thread as well.  If the OP of the other thread wants to let us know what happened he's welcome to post a solution here or in another thread.

[Sofa King]

Sorry, I am not trying to start anything, just joking around.  I put it in all caps to be ironic, funny.  But appear to be just annoying...my bad.

[B.D.F.]

Well, understanding that I do not know and have not seen Steve's bike, it does seem to me that he has studied the entire mounting situation very well, thought through the possibilities, and then responded here in a logical and reasonable manner why the engine cannot be re-aligned in the frame via the rear mount. So yes, I tend to believe him, especially since his findings make sense to me. Just as an example, to move the front of the engine, say, 1/16" down but on one side only, the engine would have to rotate about that same amount about the rear engine mount and that sounds like a LOT of clearance to me. A much more usual way to do this would be to capture some point on the engine with a fixed point on the frame and then allow some movement on the other end. This method at least anchors the critical point of the engine, the output drive point, to a known point in the frame.

But again, all of that said, I do not know exactly what Steve did or exactly what the results are. As he seems like an intelligent and articulate person, I would like to hear him finish the story and find out what he did to alleviate the problem on the left front mount. I look at this situation as a chance to gain knowledge about the bike rather than a case of what method may be better than another method.

There will be plenty of cases for us to 'straighten out' wrong thinking in tire, oil and <k-word> threads later on.... (yep, that was a joke). 

Brian

From your statement, it sounds like you agree that loosening *both* rear mounts will have no effect on the ability to install the bolts in the front mount.  I asked if that had been tried, point blank, and did not get a clear "Yes, I tried it" as a reply.  From what I could tell, only one was loosened, and then re-tightened.

Until someone reproduces the alignment problem and actually tries the sequence as it is listed in the manual, and reports back here without any ambiguity that this was done and did not work, I doubt anyone will cut anyone else any slack.

I too would like to know how this turns out, though if reaming out the bolt hole is the fix Steve uses, I would be concerned.  When Kawasaki uses the term "stressed member" in relation to the frame and engine mounting, I have to wonder if they are using the word "stressed" quite literally.

[lather]

I agree Steve seems intelligent and articulate but I am not convinced that he and now you are right about the possible relationships between the rear engine mounting bolts and adjustment collars and the front engine brackets. I was thinking that the whole frame (which if I recall correctly is an innovative partial monocoque type) is designed to be in some tension and that tension is pulling the frame out of alignment with the front engine mounts. Such that the front left bracket should only be R/Red with the tension relieved via the rear mounting bolts/collars. Why I did not have a problem similar to Steve's I have no idea.

Here is an interesting ZX14 recall (I think the ZX14 has a similar frame design)
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?TID=39449&FID=27

[C1xRider]

Well, another old thread that needs some closure.

I pulled both front motor mounts off my 2010 to do the valve adjustment, and sure enough, when I reassembled everything the front motor mount bolts would not go back in.  The holes in the brackets would not line up with the holes in the frame.

I've been anticipating this since this thread and it's original (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3700.0).  I've actually been looking forward to it.

I can now say that we were right!  I loosened the jam nuts on the right side of the rear mount bolts, then loosened the mount bolts themselves from the left side (beware, they have left hand threads - CW to loosen, CCW to tighten), and as I was loosening the second one, I heard a solid 'clunk'.  I looked at the front, and the bolt holes were all lined up.

I left the front brackets loose to get the best alignment of the main front engine bolts, then tightened up all the front bolts, then the rear bolts, and everything is back together with no grinding, no drilling, no machining of any kind, and virtually no fuss.

Just wanted everyone to know the procedure in the manual works great, and not to fret over removing those front bolts and brackets.  And by no means should you consider reaming out the holes in those front brackets to get the bolts back in!

[wendel]

I had the same problem when reassembling after the Rostra on the left side. I removed the MCE bar on the left. When I went to reinstall the bar the lower mount would not line up. A mechanic rethreaded it for me. The information about the rear motor mounts is useful info. I do not have a manual for the 2012.

Can someone post the instructions for the rear motor mounts?

[B.D.F.]

Glad it worked out for you and thanks for posting. A couple of things-

You do not have to remove both front motor mounts to do a valve adjust. In fact, there is absolutely no advantage in removing the left / front bracket. I have done several valve checks / adjustments on different C-14s and never had the engine to frame relationship shift when only removing the right / front motor mount bracket.

Can you expand a bit on moving the rear mount adjustment(s), hearing a clunk and the front brackets coming back into alignment? It would seem that moving the rear motor mounts with the front brackets removed could only result in the engine shifting downward.... but how would the engine have shifted upward just by removing the front brackets in the first place? Did you have a jack under the engine at some point? Were both front brackets misaligned in the same direction (i.e. both up or both down relative to the engine)? I honestly do not remember the finer points of this discussion and am not picturing what went on with your procedure.

Thanks,
Brian

Well, another old thread that needs some closure.

I pulled both front motor mounts off my 2010 to do the valve adjustment, and sure enough, when I reassembled everything the front motor mount bolts would not go back in.  The holes in the brackets would not line up with the holes in the frame.

I've been anticipating this since this thread and it's original (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3700.0).  I've actually been looking forward to it.

I can now say that we were right!  I loosened the jam nuts on the right side of the rear mount bolts, then loosened the mount bolts themselves from the left side (beware, they have left hand threads - CW to loosen, CCW to tighten), and as I was loosening the second one, I heard a solid 'clunk'.  I looked at the front, and the bolt holes were all lined up.

I left the front brackets loose to get the best alignment of the main front engine bolts, then tightened up all the front bolts, then the rear bolts, and everything is back together with no grinding, no drilling, no machining of any kind, and virtually no fuss.

Just wanted everyone to know the procedure in the manual works great, and not to fret over removing those front bolts and brackets.  And by no means should you consider reaming out the holes in those front brackets to get the bolts back in!

[C1xRider]

Glad it worked out for you and thanks for posting. A couple of things-

You do not have to remove both front motor mounts to do a valve adjust. In fact, there is absolutely no advantage in removing the left / front bracket. I have done several valve checks / adjustments on different C-14s and never had the engine to frame relationship shift when only removing the right / front motor mount bracket.

Can you expand a bit on moving the rear mount adjustment(s), hearing a clunk and the front brackets coming back into alignment? It would seem that moving the rear motor mounts with the front brackets removed could only result in the engine shifting downward.... but how would the engine have shifted upward just by removing the front brackets in the first place? Did you have a jack under the engine at some point? Were both front brackets misaligned in the same direction (i.e. both up or both down relative to the engine)? I honestly do not remember the finer points of this discussion and am not picturing what went on with your procedure.

Thanks,
Brian

Sure thing, happy to do it.

I have tip over bars that mount on the front engine mount bolts (bottom of the front engine mount brackets), using the bolts that thread into the engine case.  When I installed the bars, I did them one side at a time, never having both front bolts out at the same time.

When I pulled the bars to remove the fairings to do the valve inspection, both sides were now off at the same time, and the engine moved UP, relative to the holes in both brackets (still not sure why).  No jacking up of the engine was done, bike was just sitting on the center stand.  Maybe the C14 engine just defies the laws of gravity.

I had noticed when I originally installed the bars, the tops of the lower holes in both front aluminum engine brackets were scarred by the threads of the bolts.  It was difficult to get the bolts back in, because the threads were seriously rubbing the top of the holes in both brackets.

I didn't have a Allen head socket short enough to remove the bolts over the #1 exhaust with the left side bracket in the way.  It was just easier to remove the left side bracket completely to get the bolts out, to remove the cams.  Since the engine bolt was already out, and I could see the holes were no longer aligned, it mattered even less.  As I recall, that's the same reason vortex2 (Steve?) removed the left side bracket on his bike.

I'm not sure how the rear mounting bolts actually work.  There are 2 bolts that go all the way through the bike, connecting to the frame on each side, with the engine sandwiched in between.  There are no 'brackets' really, just bolts going through everything.

It would seem that just loosening these bolts would do nothing, but that is certainly not the case.  The heads of these bolts are on the right side (Allen heads), and I believe they thread into the engine case itself.  When you tighten the bolts, it pulls the engine up against the right side frame.  The nut on the left side is a jam nut, to keep the bolt from coming loose, and possibly pulls the left side frame tight against the engine (not sure about this either).

Clearly when I loosened the last bolt, the engine dropped into place.  There was a loud 'clunk', loud enough that my buddy standing next to me heard it too (he's half deaf, and I forgot to ask him if he had his hearing aids in or not).

After that, I was able to start the front bolts, and turn them until they hit the red thread lock goo, with my fingers.  Something I could not do when I originally installed the tip over bars. 

[basmntdweller]

I am way late to this thread but if the engine moved up when the bolts were loosened, maybe it was under some leverage from the rear suspension/ shaft drive since it was on the center stand. Maybe if it was sitting on the wheels the engine would be free to drop when the bolts are loosened? Just a WAG that maybe someone could verify when it is their time to do the valve check. Mine is a long way off so hopefully someone else may verify this before I get to mine.

Matt

[marku8a]

Sure thing, happy to do it.

I have tip over bars that mount on the front engine mount bolts (bottom of the front engine mount brackets), using the bolts that thread into the engine case.  When I installed the bars, I did them one side at a time, never having both front bolts out at the same time.

When I pulled the bars to remove the fairings to do the valve inspection, both sides were now off at the same time, and the engine moved UP, relative to the holes in both brackets (still not sure why).  No jacking up of the engine was done, bike was just sitting on the center stand.  Maybe the C14 engine just defies the laws of gravity.

This is very interesting. When I installed my Top Block tip over protectors I had to remove the front engine mount bolts. I had difficulty with the removal that I attributed to the thread locker. I loosened both sides before removing the bolts then removed the bolts from both sides. Part of this installation requires the replacement of the upper rear engine mount bolt with the Top Block replacement bolt. Since my installation took place over a couple of days I don't recall if I had the rear bolt off/on at the same time as the front bolts. But at one point all were loose (not torque to the final value)

On re-assembly, the rear upper went in with the slight tap of a plastic mallet. The  right side upper was easy to get started but got difficult (higher than expected torque) about half way home. I think that this is still attributable to the old red thread locker. I used Blue Loctite thinking it would act as a lubricant on the way in. The left side upper mount has 2 bolts. They started but got difficult like the right side. The lower larger bolt required a ½ inch ratchet. I tightened them a bit at a time until they were both snug before the final torque.

All work was done on the centerstand. The left front lower bolt installation just didn’t feel right. Way too much torque needed only half way home.

I am about to start a Rostra installation and am concerned about snapping the front upper left engine mount bolts while loosing/tightening the bolts to move the brace for drilling the throttle arm.

Other experiences?

Mark

[B.D.F.]

OK, that makes perfect sense as to why you would remove both mounts.

The engine moving 'up' when the front brackets were removed is odd for sure. I would think it would move down and require a jack to lift it back into alignment rather than just loosening the rear mounting bolts.

At any rate, glad to hear it went so easily. Thanks for the explanation.

Brian

Sure thing, happy to do it.

I have tip over bars that mount on the front engine mount bolts (bottom of the front engine mount brackets), using the bolts that thread into the engine case.  When I installed the bars, I did them one side at a time, never having both front bolts out at the same time.

<snip>

After that, I was able to start the front bolts, and turn them until they hit the red thread lock goo, with my fingers.  Something I could not do when I originally installed the tip over bars.