Turbocharged C14

[Fretka]

...I think they make a remote kit for the zx-14 for big turbo bikes: the run it back by the swingarm in that app. I don't mind taking the fairing/turbo off every 3K miles or so... I'm pretty quick at it now and it gives me a chance to check everything for leaks and cracks. If I were in the buisness of making/selling kits for the masses, I'd use a remote set-up for sure. I still need to tweak my header anyway to fix a cold-sealing issue on the #1 hole.... *sigh* so many things on the list.

I'm still really interested in the idea of an exhaust evacuator set-up for the crancase breather though........ 

Take a look at the new Ducati Pangiale motor, the round 3" dia. housing between the cylinders is just that. A suction pump. Sure be easy to run a hose to the scroll intake area on our motors but more HP is so easy to come by, why bother. 

Bruce

[EpicBadass]

That looks way too much fun.  Pretty sad when you have to start worrying about aerodynamics in the triple digits though, such a horrible problem to have haha

Fortunately for me (and my wallet) I can't take it for a test ride or id get addicted and in a month or so mine would be force fed... happened to my old S2000 when i rode in one LOL 

[MrJax]

Did I miss the photo's you were thinking of taking? And the build write up you were gonna do? And does Fretka still have a copy of his write up from the other forum (COG)? I'll bet there would be plenty of interest in seeing these!

[SpazOnaConcours]

Did I miss the photo's you were thinking of taking? And the build write up you were gonna do? And does Fretka still have a copy of his write up from the other forum (COG)? I'll bet there would be plenty of interest in seeing these!

Photo's forthcoming.... forgot where I put my camera cord.  Still working on the write up too... the beginning is over here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3047.0

...I swear I'll get to finishing it soon... just have a lot on my plate atm.

[SpazOnaConcours]

Take a look at the new Ducati Pangiale motor, the round 3" dia. housing between the cylinders is just that. A suction pump. Sure be easy to run a hose to the scroll intake area on our motors but more HP is so easy to come by, why bother. 

Bruce

I don't know if I'd run it to the scroll intake or run an exhaust scavenge instead. I'm not looking for more power exactly, just a clean and odor friendly way of dealing with crankcase vapors. But free power is free power, no? 

[Fretka]

Didja ever do a blow-off valve?

Someday soon when I have lost all common sense I still want to do a duck call in the valve.   

[SpazOnaConcours]

nope.... still keepin' it stealthy.

[punkynlew1]

nope.... still keepin' it stealthy.

Spaz: In view of a recent report of turboed C14 OEM piston failure, what advice would you give to prevent such from happening. My turbo installation has not occurred yet. Now is the time to make corrections to my installation and have max reliability and fun. Thanks for your advice.   Lew

[connie_rider]

I suspect the solution for increasing piston longevity, is probably less initial compression, or less boost.
(Or forged/lower compression pistons)?

Ride safe, Ted

[SpazOnaConcours]

....I guess that depends on how said piston failed. If it was from detonation, then less boost or better fuel (or intercool). If it was from the ring gap closing, then run more ring gap. If it was from valve-to-piston contact, then valve springs may be suspect. If none of that checks out, then the OEM piston might just be weak for one reason or another... then it would be time to dial up JE, Wossner, CP, or MTC for some turbo ZX14 pistons. I guess you could run less boost if it was just a weak OEM piston... but running less than 5psi is just kinda pointless if you ask me. The stock static compression ratio of the Connie (10.7:1 advertised) is far low enough to run 8 psi on pump gas, as long as the actual piston strength is up to the task.

[punkynlew1]

....I guess that depends on how said piston failed. If it was from detonation, then less boost or better fuel (or intercool). If it was from the ring gap closing, then run more ring gap. If it was from valve-to-piston contact, then valve springs may be suspect. If none of that checks out, then the OEM piston might just be weak for one reason or another... then it would be time to dial up JE, Wossner, CP, or MTC for some turbo ZX14 pistons. I guess you could run less boost if it was just a weak OEM piston... but running less than 5psi is just kinda pointless if you ask me. The stock static compression ratio of the Connie (10.7:1 advertised) is far low enough to run 8 psi on pump gas, as long as the actual piston strength is up to the task.

Spaz: If you knew that the only 2 known turboed C14's have both suffered mechanical OEM piston failure ("not from pre-detonation," as reported by Fretka) and that OEM C14 pistons are not forged as OEM ZX14 pistons are, would you likely recommend forged turbo piston kits to be used in a turboed C14? Do you like the idea of using static 9.5 CR JE forged turbo ZX14 pistons? My turbo project will include upgraded valve and clutch springs, a cam chain tensioner and a JE forged turbo piston kit, if you agree with my decision. Thanks for your reply. Later, amigo.    Lew 

[EpicBadass]

While I do not have motorcycle specific experience with FI I can say from my experience in cars that I would recommend the forged pistons.  Without knowing the particular motor I have no idea how badly it needs the valve stems/springs and headwork, however I can say the bottomend is generally most important and forged pistons are where you want to be. 

You might be able to run lower boost on a good tune on the OEM pistons but if you've got the pockets for it definitely do a forged bottom end.  Additionally you should definitely check into forged rods as long as you're doing the pistons.

[SpazOnaConcours]

Weeelllll, if I knew that they were cast pistons and not forged, I would -highly- recommend changing the pistons. I don't know if the C14 pistons are cast or not though... I thought they were forged. I've been wrong about bigger things though.

Now, when you make the jump to forged pistons you might have a few issues. The ZX14 and Concours share the same crank, rods, and head gasket... but the head and block are different part numbers. Given that the Concours has a much lower advertised compression ratio, you might want to look into the ACTUAL head chamber volume on the C14 vs the ZX14, and the ACTUAL compression height (or deck height of the installed pistons) very carefully. There is a good chance that not ALL of the lower compression comes from the difference in piston. For instance, lets say that the C14 had just 3cc more chamber volume and the piston height was .020 lower, a set of "drop-in 9.0:1 pistons" would actually yield a compression ratio of around 8.1:1! That, for a lack of better word, would suck. You could throw a lot more boost at it this way, but you'd lose a lot of the nice characteristics of the motor off boost. That, and in a non-intercooled set-up you'd want to stay away from higher boost levels as much as possible: the more you compress the charge the hotter it gets. I say it's far better to have around 10.5 static compression and 8lbs of boost than 9.0 static and 11lbs of boost if they made the same peak power numbers (those are just example numbers... I have no idea where it would even out like that). To get the compression in that sweet spot you'd most likely have to have a set of custom pistons carved up.

Valve springs might not be a bad idea, but the C14 and ZX14 use the same springs.... you don't see a lot of spring failure on bolt-on turbo Zx14s. The cams in the C14 are significantly less aggressive to boot (and I have a sneaking suspicion that it doesn't even rev quite as high as the ZX14... the dash tach liiiiies to you). Given all that, I feel that they should be strong enough to do the deed at the stock rev limiter.

Rods are a non-issue. Turbo ZX14 guys have made over 400hp on stock rod/crank combos for years, and the C14 shares those parts. They really only change rods when they start doing stroker motors or change the rod length to use funky piston combos for heavy nitrous/boost uses. Your clutch basket or bevel drive would explode long before you fragg'ed a rod from sheer power.

That help any?

[punkynlew1]

Weeelllll, if I knew that they were cast pistons and not forged, I would -highly- recommend changing the pistons. I don't know if the C14 pistons are cast or not though... I thought they were forged. I've been wrong about bigger things though.

Now, when you make the jump to forged pistons you might have a few issues. The ZX14 and Concours share the same crank, rods, and head gasket... but the head and block are different part numbers. Given that the Concours has a much lower advertised compression ratio, you might want to look into the ACTUAL head chamber volume on the C14 vs the ZX14, and the ACTUAL compression height (or deck height of the installed pistons) very carefully. There is a good chance that not ALL of the lower compression comes from the difference in piston. For instance, lets say that the C14 had just 3cc more chamber volume and the piston height was .020 lower, a set of "drop-in 9.0:1 pistons" would actually yield a compression ratio of around 8.1:1! That, for a lack of better word, would suck. You could throw a lot more boost at it this way, but you'd lose a lot of the nice characteristics of the motor off boost. That, and in a non-intercooled set-up you'd want to stay away from higher boost levels as much as possible: the more you compress the charge the hotter it gets. I say it's far better to have around 10.5 static compression and 8lbs of boost than 9.0 static and 11lbs of boost if they made the same peak power numbers (those are just example numbers... I have no idea where it would even out like that). To get the compression in that sweet spot you'd most likely have to have a set of custom pistons carved up.

Valve springs might not be a bad idea, but the C14 and ZX14 use the same springs.... you don't see a lot of spring failure on bolt-on turbo Zx14s. The cams in the C14 are significantly less aggressive to boot (and I have a sneaking suspicion that it doesn't even rev quite as high as the ZX14... the dash tach liiiiies to you). Given all that, I feel that they should be strong enough to do the deed at the stock rev limiter.

Rods are a non-issue. Turbo ZX14 guys have made over 400hp on stock rod/crank combos for years, and the C14 shares those parts. They really only change rods when they start doing stroker motors or change the rod length to use funky piston combos for heavy nitrous/boost uses. Your clutch basket or bevel drive would explode long before you fragg'ed a rod from sheer power.

That help any?

Spaz: Yes and thanks again for your advice. Later, amigo.    Lew

[SpazOnaConcours]

I figured I'd update here... been a while.

...the new pistons showed up this week, so I tore it all the way down to swap 'em out. To re-cap for people who don't know: it turns out our C14 pistons are CAST, not forged items like the ZX14's. This is bad. I wanted to replace them with forged items, but ZX14 forged pistons that everyone makes are either way too high of a compression ratio (12:1+), or way too low (8:1-9:1). I wanted to retain the stock compression ratio, so I measured all the relevant parts and came up with the piston volume I'd need to make a 10.5:1 piston in our C14. Do note that this is different from the zx14 because of our slightly different cylinder head. I tried to contact a few piston manufactures, but the only people that would get back with me were Wossner (www.wossnerpistons.com). I did some homework on the ZX14 forums and people had nothing but good things to say about them, so I gave them a call. First off, they are helpful, responsive, and knowledgeable about what they do. Second, they were more than willing to help make what I needed. They have an off the shelf Zx14 piston that was way too low a CR for me, so I asked them to make me a set of exactly the same piston... just with my specified (smaller) dish volume. Everything was done over the phone, and they got it right the first time. Lead time on a set of custom pistons was 4 weeks to the day, but now they have the drawing on file for this set up. They did all this with great communication, no money up front, and all for 100-200 dollars cheaper a set less than JE or CP. And these pistons came with new rings, wristpins, clips, and coated skirts. Just wow.

Here are some photos and specs on the pistons. My camera batteries just croacked, so I'll post some stock piston comparison photos later on. The Wossner pistons are, unbelievably, TWENTY GRAMS lighter than the stock pistons, but they have wider skirts and better wristpin support. The wristpin bores are not tapered at the ends (the stockers are), so they weight an additional 6 grams... but are much stronger. The 1st and 2nd rings on the wossner pistons are much thicker than stock, so the ring pack weighs a few additional grams as well.... but again, are going to be stronger (and transfer heat to the cylinder walls much better!). Total weight (rings, wristpins, and piston) still came in a full 6 or so grams under the stock weight. As a bonus, everything was delivered weight matched within one tenth of a gram (0.1g). I've done a lot of engine balancing a few years ago, and it is damn uncommon to get a set that close right out of the box. For reference, I just matched up a set of off the shelf CP turbo pistons for a SR20 a few days ago... there was a .7 gram spread over 4 pistons there.

Vent holes in the oil ring are larger and more numerous than stock, and the piston dishes came fully de-burred and smooth. The valve relief cut-outs are rounded instead of sharp like the stock pistons, and the quench area is fully twice the size of a stock piston. Anti-wear/anti-friction coatings on the skirts is a nice touch too. I don't work for these guys, and they didn't give me any sort of special deal.... but I will sure as hell recommend them to anyone now. 

[SpazOnaConcours]

.....and I wish I knew how to imbed images in a post......



edit: nevermind... figured it out.

[SpazOnaConcours]

let's see if this works......






Note the very thin and sharp angle for the valve relief on the stock piston. Scary.

[wildnphx]

Very very nice Spaz!!!  That is great news for us that follow after you to know where to get such high quality with very resonable price.

Thanks for paving the way...

[ZG]

 
 
Very cool Spaz!     

[wildnphx]

Spaz, how did the piston install go?  Any updates?  Punky how did your turbo install go?  I would love to hear more...  I am so going to do this!!!