Author Topic: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.  (Read 97307 times)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #180 on: August 17, 2024, 12:28:16 PM »
I am he (as you are me...).

Let me peruse this entire thread. I hit the first and last pages, wanted to see if a resolution was found and saw the peculiar error. Have a suspicion or two but I want to read through and confirm a couple things.

OP, feel free to PM me.


Sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun.  If the sun don't come, you get a tan from standing in the English rain.

I wish I was back there but sadly I don't think I'll ever see England again..
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Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #181 on: August 17, 2024, 01:09:26 PM »
I went out to my '08 with both of my KDS3-installed laptops (Win10 and Win11), connected the FI module test port to the adapter via the Countermeasures cable (57001-1724) and then powered the bike on and connected to one laptop at a time to verify the Kawasaki Diagnostics driver was being installed. Behavior of this is slightly different between platforms and is definitely different than what is depicted in the KDS3 Setup Guide for Win7/8 systems.

Upon successful detection I ran Diagnostics from each laptop to verify the program is working. All appears good. Have a few more cables inbound (nice to have duplicates of some) but the system is up, running and ready to perform servicing of the '08-09's FI and related sections.

Dave, ping me with a status on your project if you wish.

Offline dl1911

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2024, 05:19:26 PM »
Bagger John,

Email sent

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #183 on: August 17, 2024, 06:34:56 PM »
 :banana   :chugbeer:
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline PH14

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #184 on: August 18, 2024, 03:27:32 PM »
Awesome.  :chugbeer:

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #185 on: August 25, 2024, 06:27:25 AM »
Update for all who have been following along. This gets to be a bit detailed so bear with me:

Packed KDS3, PC and supplies then went to Dave's place yesterday. He had the bike plus a spare, loose FI ECU which we'll call ECU B.

Connected KDS up. Looked at Diagnostics. No stored errors. Tried to start the bike. Stove knob mechanism does its thing, unlocks, allows you to turn the key to the middle position. Dash lights all cycle correctly including the FI/Security light, which flashes once. (I bolded this for a reason - we'll get back to it.) Fuel pump and other engine management systems go through their prime/initialization sequence correctly.

Hit the starter and the bike cranks but no start and the FI/Security light flashes rapidly as long as the starter button is engaged. Checked Diagnostics again - no stored codes.

Did an initialization of the FI ECU (the one that came with the bike) as a first step test. "ECU Initialization correct". Still no start.

Looked at the KIPASS Real Time Diagnostics. FOB registration is proper, and there were two stored messages each for steering lock and FI ECU comm errors - but no current stored fault codes.

Swapped that FI ECU for FI ECU B. Upon power-up, got an FI Error message on the dash. Successfully initialized it and the error went away. Still no start.

Looked at the KIPASS Real Time Diagnostics again. The FI ECU comm errors had incremented by one, as would be expected. 

Tried an initialization of the Steering Lock, then both the Steering Lock and FI ECU B together, then Steering Lock and FI ECU A (the bike's original one). Same - no start, no errors, nothing more in the real-time data.

At this point it looks like something which the ECU simply doesn't know how to log. The -08-09 service manual is rather sparse in regards to ECU behavior and a fault tree but the 10-14 gets into a bit more detail. Related to the bolded early on, from page 17-11 in that manual:

"If the problem is with the following parts, the ECU Cannot memorize these problems. the warning indicator (LED) doesn't come on or blinks...etc."

  • Warning Indicator Light
  • Meter Panel LCD
  • Stick Coil Secondary and Ground Wiring
  • ECU Power Source Wiring and Ground Wiring

Doing testing of some of the connectors for voltage requires needle tip adapters for my DMM (an excuse to $pend money on tools...yay). Dave may have some in his shop.

After looking at this problem with the tools, manuals and prior history of what was done with the bike I can identify two possibilities: One is something electromechanical (wiring, sensor, another component) that the KIPASS ECU cannot see or measure. The other is the KIPASS ECU itself. A search on the net for the "Kawasaki FI light flashes; no start" condition gets us into the tip-over sensor and a couple others which may or may not be relevant here. The bolded comment is reflected in a few threads I've found: Everything appears normal upon power-on and ECU initialization but a problem in a connected peripheral or supply line prevents the bike from starting.

So...question for Freddy, Michelle and the rest: If we had an immobilizer failure with the bike, I wouldn't be able to get the stove knob to unlock and the bike to go into initialization/prime mode...correct?


Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #186 on: August 25, 2024, 08:25:55 AM »
I think that your assumption in your last sentence is correct.  If it didn't see the fob it would not allow you to unlock the bike (turn the knob..easy boys).  I had two occasions on my bike where it would not unlock.  I had to beat it with a hammer and say a few select words to get it to unlock.
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Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #187 on: August 25, 2024, 07:01:00 PM »
Yes, correct.

Very 'interesting'!!!!   Good work BJ.   :chugbeer:

At this point l would replace the crank angle sensor.  They can sometimes cause similar odd behaviour on other vehicles I've had experience with.  If faulty, it should probably throw a code but stranger things have happened - tho l can't remember when.   :facepalm:

As the wiring harness has already been replaced with no improvement,  we can rule that out. 

This problem is certainly a challenge.  :(
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline dl1911

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #188 on: August 26, 2024, 04:15:16 AM »
Freddy,

Thank you for the reply. For what it is worth, during the process of testing everything I left the crank position sensor unplugged by accident. As soon as I cranked the engine it thru a fault code immediately.  Once I plugged it back in the fault went away.
I'm inclined that the CPS is operating normally.

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #189 on: August 26, 2024, 04:34:08 AM »
 :thumbs: 
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #190 on: August 26, 2024, 07:48:34 AM »
We also detected that event in the Real Time Diagnostics KDS display - but no dash codes are shown.

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #191 on: August 26, 2024, 06:00:14 PM »
I'm about out of ideas.  There have been rare cases of ECU connector pins dislodged, but the issue arose after rodent attack and the bike was running well previously, I believe.  The harness has been replaced (great work Dave) and since then the engine will not fire up. 

BUT - could it be a connector pin somewhere that's been disturbed in the process?  ECU Power Source Wiring and Ground Wiring  or elsewhere???

What a job!!!

What next BJ?
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #192 on: August 26, 2024, 07:24:36 PM »
I'm about out of ideas.  There have been rare cases of ECU connector pins dislodged, but the issue arose after rodent attack and the bike was running well previously, I believe.  The harness has been replaced (great work Dave) and since then the engine will not fire up. 

BUT - could it be a connector pin somewhere that's been disturbed in the process?  ECU Power Source Wiring and Ground Wiring  or elsewhere???

What a job!!!

What next BJ?
I believe a systematic study of the ECU power wiring and coil wiring is next. I also think at this point that the comm lines between KIPASS ECU, the FI ECU and the Steering Lock ECU are behaving properly else we'd be seeing comm errors every time the bike was switched on.

After this, a step-by-step examination of every sensor connected to the engine or chassis which acts as an interlock. Clutch switch, sidestand switch, etc.

Dave has a neat little pocket oscilloscope which we could use to look at the coil primaries. What I'd bring over to look at the secondaries is a bit bigger, but my thinking at present is that a sensor is signaling the ECU to not allow the coils to fire. What that is specifically has to be determined.

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #193 on: August 26, 2024, 07:55:30 PM »
Into the manuals a bit.

There are three specific tests I'd like to perform. One is an ECU power/ground inspection (requires needle adapters for the DMM and it just happens that I ordered a set recently.).

Next is a stick coil primary voltage test. Also requires needle adapters. There's something very interesting on Page 3-87 of the 08-09 Service Manual, at the top.

Error codes for the stick coils. What jumps out at me is "52". I recall earlier in the thread that the shop said something about code 1652? Code 16 simply doesn't exist or is reserved. 52, on the other hand, implies a power problem with coil #2. There's a possible correlation here.

Lastly is peak primary voltage (requires a few more tools - I bought the harness adapter). I'd really like to get a look at this on one of my lab scopes.

More manual study is in order. Now to focus on the coil power side of things. 

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #194 on: August 26, 2024, 08:11:54 PM »
And a look at the coil supply circuits gives me a few areas to look at.

Dave's gonna cuss. Bodywork has to come back off (again).  :rotflmao:

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #195 on: August 26, 2024, 09:12:47 PM »
 :goodpost:   :thumbs:  Great work BJ - I'm proud of you.   ;D   :chugbeer:   :banana

I'll send you a PM with a colour wiring diagram for the gen 1, courtesy of Fred H.

Yes, that code 1652 is a mystery.  I dunno how/what they used to discovered it - if in fact they did.


EDIT: there is no option to attach files to as PM here so I've sent it via COG forum.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2024, 05:36:24 AM by Freddy »
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline dl1911

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #196 on: August 27, 2024, 05:27:55 AM »
Bagger John, you tell me when you want to work on it further and I will have plastics removed and ready for your arrival. I cannot Thank You enough for all this effort

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2024, 07:02:21 AM »
Bagger John, you tell me when you want to work on it further and I will have plastics removed and ready for your arrival. I cannot Thank You enough for all this effort
I need to buy a peak detector adapter for the DMM. Between that and your pocket scope we should be able to determine whether or not the coil primaries are getting voltage and if there's an issue with the ECU or coil power feeds.

A little electronic theory for those following along:

The ECU fires the plugs by bringing lines 1, 2, 26 and 27 to ground (corresponding to stick coils 1 through 4). If one was misfiring I'd suspect the coil itself or possibly the ECU. All four not firing plus the FI/Security light flashing likely means the ECU detects a system flaw (or lack of power) and is preventing any ignition operation. Page 3-88 of the service manual contains several areas of interest. One of these is the Run/Stop switch. Today's project is to examine the switch schematic and find out if it's a double pole type. If it is, one side of the switch (which supplies coil power) may not be making contact when closed...but this is a SWAG at the moment. More as I study the manual.

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2024, 08:10:34 AM »
Schematically, the switch is shown as an SPST. I'm wondering if it's actually a double pole. Testing voltage at the ECU will rule this section of the circuit out anyway so that's the next area of focus.

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2024, 06:22:40 PM »
 :banana   :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
The best substitute for brains is .............what?