Finally they figured out the TPS problem. DUH!

[gPink]

I'll ping Rick and/or Jim and see if we can get a definitive answer.

[B.D.F.]

Hysterical!

Hopefully you do see what your mistake was and where exactly you made it.... hint: it had / has nothing to do with any laws whatsoever.

Let us hope you learned your lesson. 

At first I did not understand how this thread de- railed so badly because it is not about KiPass. But then upon further reflection, the TPS system on a C-14 IS PART of the overall KiPass system so I guess there is enough of a link to cause such a breakdown.

Back ONTOPIC: If the bike shows data sometimes but they displays '---' during the same ride, it is most likely to be a bad TPS sensor, with a further guess that it is some type of power interruption w/in the sensor such as a loose battery connection. Once a TPS is activated, it continues to send a signal for some amount of time around three minutes, which is ample time for the G-force sensor in the sensor to re- activate the sensor and keep it powered up continuously. In fact, this is the first time I have heard of a TPS cutting in and out.  Now, that said, of course it <could> be the receiver / processor but that is highly unlikely because the OP is only having trouble with one sensor; all parts of the TPS system on the bike are shared by both the front and rear sensors, so it is doubtful that any fault on the bike- side of the system would only affect one sensor's reading.

I believe the front sensor is at fault. The easiest test I can think of would be to swap the front and rear sensors and see if the problem on the bike's display migrates to the other end (yeah, there should be an Easy Boys! in there but I am not exactly sure where to put it (Boys!)). A little labor intensive to swap the sensors but it can be done with the tires and wheels still on the bike in less than an hour.

Brian

I posted the above link on the COG site last week in an effort to help a guy out. I was asked yesterday by a COG official to remove the link in my post as it violates COG posting rules as pertains to copyright infringement. WTF?

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/auxiliary-fob-issue-can't-program-it-even-with-the-code!/msg591172/#msg591172

Who here thinks that Kawasaki would have an issue with us posting such things?

[Conrad]

snip...
Hysterical!

Hopefully you do see what your mistake was and where exactly you made it.... hint: it had / has nothing to do with any laws whatsoever.

Let us hope you learned your lesson. 

At first I did not understand how this thread de- railed so badly because it is not about KiPass. But then upon further reflection, the TPS system on a C-14 IS PART of the overall KiPass system so I guess there is enough of a link to cause such a breakdown.

Brian

I do and I did and I have.   

[jwh20]

Back ONTOPIC: If the bike shows data sometimes but they displays '---' during the same ride, it is most likely to be a bad TPS sensor, with a further guess that it is some type of power interruption w/in the sensor such as a loose battery connection. Once a TPS is activated, it continues to send a signal for some amount of time around three minutes, which is ample time for the G-force sensor in the sensor to re- activate the sensor and keep it powered up continuously. In fact, this is the first time I have heard of a TPS cutting in and out.  Now, that said, of course it <could> be the receiver / processor but that is highly unlikely because the OP is only having trouble with one sensor; all parts of the TPS system on the bike are shared by both the front and rear sensors, so it is doubtful that any fault on the bike- side of the system would only affect one sensor's reading.

I didn't see where the new OP (as this thread was already hijacked) said that the reading was intermittent.   He said that after the dealer replaced the module and registered it, there is still no reading from the sensor.  So I'll stick with what I said before as to the possible causes but I'm still leaning toward the "human error" probability with the dealer registering the wrong ID in KDS3 and the sensor is not detected.

[lather]

My front sensor is consistently intermittent since the battery was replaced last year. The nice thing I'd no low batt warnings.

[jwh20]

My front sensor is consistently intermittent since the battery was replaced last year. The nice thing I'd no low batt warnings.

In that case it's quite possible the battery wasn't soldered in properly.  The connections are originally covered with some conformal coating that can make it tricky to solder a new battery in if that isn't cleaned off well.

[B.D.F.]

I have included the first post in this thread. You are correct in that he did not say the TPS reading(s) were intermittent but in fact were slow to show for the front sensor. I believe I may have been confusing the OP's post with Lather's posts....

So, if the TPS reads at all, for any length of time, I do not believe it could be a programming problem. If one TPS is slow to read initially, again I would blame the sensor and not the system because only one sensor is showing that behavior (front). Again though, the recommendation to swap the sensors would still prove where in the system the problem is located (the sensor or any part of the bike's electronics). Or just replacing the front sensor if the dealer and Kawasaki will do that.... and they probably will though they may resist a bit.

Now Lather has a different problem where his tire pressure disappears after it is engaged yet while he is still riding. Again, I believe that is a problem with the sensor itself and not any part of the bike for the same reason- only one sensor is showing the problem. And swapping sensors would again prove the source of the problem.

By the way: now that these bikes have been around for quite a while, I would think used, original- style TPS's would be available from the usual salvage sources at reasonable prices. Certainly I would not pay too much for a used TPS sensor of unknown quality, and it would take KDS hardware / software to program the bike to recognize a different sensor, but salvaged sensors might be a path to get a working TPS system on the bike again for a reasonable price.

There are also after- market, real- time tire pressuring systems for well under $100 (for four (4) wheels no less) that may also be a viable 'fix'. I have no experience with them and do not know if they work well or not but they certainly are affordable and easy enough to install.

Brian

Iv had both TPS replaced under warranty on my 2011. I recently had valves and plugs done and ever since my front TPS delays showing up on the digital display sometimes for over 10 minutes. Both tire pressure readings should display rather quickly. The display does not show the battery low indicator just --. I would assume that the sensor uses bluetooth to transfer data and I wonder if there is a small antenna under the hood that might have gotten kinked or broken. Once the reading comes up on the digital display it will stay until the bike is shut off. Then it will take another 10 minutes to reappear. Any ideas on why this is occurring?

I didn't see where the new OP (as this thread was already hijacked) said that the reading was intermittent.   He said that after the dealer replaced the module and registered it, there is still no reading from the sensor.  So I'll stick with what I said before as to the possible causes but I'm still leaning toward the "human error" probability with the dealer registering the wrong ID in KDS3 and the sensor is not detected.

[jwh20]

After 2 months waiting, Kawasaki finally approved a TPS replacement on my front tire. This was accepted under my extended warranty.  TPS replaced and now doesn't work at all. Dealer stumped as they were able to register the TPS with the ECM but will not show up on the display. Situation went from bad to worse. So the dealer opened a new inquiry and waiting for instructions to follow up. Now 4 weeks later nothing from Kawasaki. Really disappointed in their response to this warranty claim. Am I the first owner with this problem?

I guess this was the one I was going on.  But I see now that it initially worked intermittently and now is not working at all.  I agree, it's not a registration problem but rather a defective sensor.  Lather's issue was a battery replacement but in this case the dealer replaced it with, PRESUMABLY, a factory new module.  Perhaps not...

But in any case it's the dealer's responsibility to make this right whether it was a warranty replacement or a regular service replacement.

[maxtog]

There are also after- market, real- time tire pressuring systems for well under $100 (for four (4) wheels no less) that may also be a viable 'fix'. I have no experience with them and do not know if they work well or not but they certainly are affordable and easy enough to install.

It is certainly a lower-cost alternative for someone whose sensors are not under warranty and still wants to have a TPS system and doesn't care that he/she would have to mount [and possibly wire up if not battery operated] a separate receiver/display unit somewhere.  I know it would irritate me to not have it integrated to the rest of the existing system.  But it would be the lesser of two evils (if I one have the money, the choice would be no TPS or a third-party system).

The "holy grail" would be a third party transmitter that had externally chargeable or replaceable batteries and worked with the Concours' receiver/computer display.  But I don't think that is going to happen.

[maxtog]

I guess this was the one I was going on.  But I see now that it initially worked intermittently and now is not working at all.  I agree, it's not a registration problem but rather a defective sensor.

I agree, it sounds like it is just defective.  Either intermittent or not transmitting at the correct power level so it can be "seen" all the time.

Lather's issue was a battery replacement but in this case the dealer replaced it with, PRESUMABLY, a factory new module.  Perhaps not...

I don't think a dealer would ever attempt to replace the batteries in any TPS.  Their only action would be to replace the sensor with whatever Kawasaki gives/sells them.  At this point, it is just the new model.

But in any case it's the dealer's responsibility to make this right whether it was a warranty replacement or a regular service replacement.

Yep.  It is a pitty it is just so incredibly labor intensive every time.

[lather]

In that case it's quite possible the battery wasn't soldered in properly.  The connections are originally covered with some conformal coating that can make it tricky to solder a new battery in if that isn't cleaned off well.

Possible sure but I doubt it. I have done 5 now successfully, using tabbed batts with the narrow ends fed through the holes, easy boys! When this one failed I sent it to Fred.  Same result.

[jwh20]

Possible sure but I doubt it. I have done 5 now successfully, using tabbed batts with the narrow ends fed through the holes, easy boys! When this one failed I sent it to Fred.  Same result.

In that case there is probably a fault in the unit itself.  A bad solder joint on the PCB or a cracked trace on the board.  It happens...

[maxtog]

In that case there is probably a fault in the unit itself.  A bad solder joint on the PCB or a cracked trace on the board.  It happens...

I have an idea- we can pot all the electronics in epoxy and then it will keep things from failing!!!!  [running and hiding now while people throw shoes at me....]

[lather]

You  bring up a point for discussion so I  won't throw a shoe. Are the potted units better? Are they giving  the low batt warning in cold weather?

[maxtog]

You  bring up a point for discussion so I  won't throw a shoe. Are the potted units better? Are they giving  the low batt warning in cold weather?

I don't think any of us know the exact reasons the new model is potted.  But there are a number of possibilities on which I would speculate, these being the most likely:

1) To prevent copying
2) To prevent people from replacing the batteries
3) To prevent damage from vibration
4) To prevent damage from humidity/liquid infiltration
5) To help prevent thermal expansion damage (questionable)

The first two are convenient side-effects (from the manufacturer's point of view) of the potting.  Read as much cynicism in it as you like   Potting electronics that are used in motor vehicle applications is certainly not uncommon.   By "better" I assume you mean more reliable or longer lasting.  So yes, in some ways being potted is better.  Certainly not for people who want to replace the batteries, though.  And the units are not just potted but a different design.... so they could be better or worse in other ways that we just don't know.  We certainly don't have enough experience yet to know if they actually last any longer or are more reliable.

As for your last question- the reason the sensors will eventually start giving a low battery warning in cold weather is just the nature of most batteries, including lithium cells.  Colder temp = less chemical reaction = lower voltage/power.  So I don't think being potted will change that behavior.  Having a larger battery will help, so would being more efficient (if it has better electronics that require less power) but, eventually, it will probably behave the same as the unpotted version when the battery gets weak.

[jwh20]

As you noted, potting is common in these types of applications.  I think they switched manufacturers from the original style to these newer ones which are made by Schrader, a company that makes a lot of these for automotive applications also.  The Kawasaki system is proprietary in that it has an ID code.  Automotive systems don't usually do this, they use wheel-located antennas to pick up each wheel so there is no coding involved.  Why?  Well one reason is that you rotate tires on a car and that would be a major PITA if you had to go to the dealer and get your TPMS modules re-programmed.  The ID system used by Kawasaki lets them use only a single antenna that is located in the KiPass ECU.  So it figures out front from rear using the ID that the module broadcasts.

The potting doesn't really prevent copying.  It's fairly easy to hack it out and if you really wanted to copy, all you'd need to do is source the same ICs that Schrader uses, figure out the protocol, and implement it.  But it would be a lot of work for very little potential reward.  Say it cost you $50K (a very LOW estimate) to reverse engineer the system and they cost say $50 each to build.  How many would you have to sell to break even?  Who would you sell them to?  Dealers?  Not likely, they don't care what they cost!  So it's just the unfortunate few of us who might want to buy a replacement.

I think the potting is mainly for physical protection of the assembly.  While inconvenient from a battery replacement viewpoint, these newer one are a lot sturdier than the older ones which are easily trashed a careless tire changer.

[B.D.F.]

Yes, I believe they are but not because they are potted; in fact, it is the other way around: the new units are better and also happen to be potted, exactly like the millions and millions sensors already in use in autos.

Long ago and far away, the internal (Easy Boys!) TPS was invented and marketed by the gazillion. One of the main, if not the main manufacturer in the world, was and is Schrader (just like the valve in a tire stem). Along came Kawasaki and decided to integrate TPS into the new- fangled version of the Concours but for some strange reason, went to a relatively unknown company in France to produce them. Schrader TPS sensors have always been potted because that is how it should be done. The French versions (LDL I believe) were never potted because.... well, I do not know why. Anyway, after Kawasaki suffered a phenomenal (in the world of mass production, 1% is phenomenal) number of TPS sensor failures, they looked around to see if anyone else was having any success with then and lo and behold, ALL the auto companies were having success, just not with LDL brand sensors. So Kawasaki 'jumped ship' and went to Schrader. But of course instead of just buying the regular sensor, they instead opted for the proprietary communication version which only they sell, so what should be a $20 sensor costs more than ten times that. The newer sensors do not use the same controller wafer (chip) that the LDL version did and hence do not have the low battery problem that the LDL's did (because of the controller they in turn bought from an electronic component manufacturer).

So here we are, stuck with bikes that use a proprietary comm. system, and have to either keep the old sensors working or buy new ones at a hugely inflated cost. That is why I suggest a third option which is an entire after market system altogether; it would not be integrated into the C-14's dash but it DOES work, and four sensors plus the controller / readout is something like $70, or one- third or one- quarter the cost of ONE C-14 TPS sensor.

Or we could all buy BMW's and have much, much bigger, more expensive and more serious things to complain about.

Brian

You  bring up a point for discussion so I  won't throw a shoe. Are the potted units better? Are they giving  the low batt warning in cold weather?

[B.D.F.]

Potting is not only common but is the norm on things like automotive service electronic modules. Potting makes the unit weatherproof, eliminates vibration damage of components (a leading cause of electronic module failure by the way), and stops things like arcing.

Again, the norm is to pot electronic packages; the C-14 had a very unusual TPS sensor on the early models. And potted TPS sensors were the norm in the vehicular world long before the C-14 was introduced.

Brian

I don't think any of us know the exact reasons the new model is potted.  But there are a number of possibilities on which I would speculate, these being the most likely:

<snip>

[jwh20]

Or we could all buy BMW's and have much, much bigger, more expensive and more serious things to complain about.

Hey, if you go to the local BMW dealer here they have an espresso bar in the service lounge.  So you can sip while sitting in an overstuffed chair waiting for

[maxtog]

Hey, if you go to the local BMW dealer here they have an espresso bar in the service lounge.  So you can sip while sitting in an overstuffed chair waiting for

Waiting for your credit card to overdraw....

We moan (me included) about how crazy expensive these TP sensors are on the Concours, but looking at BMW parts (and "reliability") can really put it into perspective