bad braking habit?

[martin_14]

Last weekend in Italy I was riding behind a guy who is a former racing driver. Every single curve he would carry the same speed in the curve, both of us at the limit of the lean angle of the tires, but he kept getting away from me during the ride.
After looking at him with more attention, I realised that he brakes later and leans the bike into the curve in a much more aggressive way, and applies throttle sooner than me on the way out of the curve.
I'd like to focus on the way in the curve here: after following me for a while, he told me that I brake too soon, that my line is too smooth for my own speed. He explained me that I should brake later and harder, that that is all the difference between us. Leaning the bike faster or slower is a matter of trust (on the grip and steering), but the braking thing I can improve it in a blink. He also stated that (and this is the interesting bit for me/us) by braking harder, and therefore less time, the brakes would heat up less, in particular the brake fluid.
For those of us (I'm thinking Steve here) that go to the track every now and then and know how to extract speed of a bike: what do you think?

[VirginiaJim]

Before you change what you are comfortable with in riding, I would take a track or very advanced riding course (if you want to ride like that) from a professional, otherwise you may wind up back in the hospital or worse.  I've seen very bad results from riders trying to push their bikes or their skills beyond their comfortable riding abilities following other riders.  I think the key operative word here is 'former racing driver'....   Oh, and what bike was he riding?

Stay safe, my friend.

[martin_14]

2015 BMW R1200 GS. And it was the first time he rides it. He usually drives an old Yamaha FZR1000 from '94, I think, with which he is truly quick.
But he can drive circles on any bike around most people, it's very frustrating 
We could have swapped bikes and he would have still been quicker than me.

[VirginiaJim]

And there is nothing wrong with that..

[Racer Boy]

As a former racing driver, I will tell you to work up to braking later in a cautious, progressive manner. Don't try to brake like your friend all at once.

[twowheeladdict]

What happens when a racer doesn't get it quite right on the track?  He low sides into the gravel and scrapes up the bike. 

What happens when a rider doesn't get it quite right on the street?  At best slides into a field.  Many more obstacles that will ruin your day, but it is your life.

[elp_jc]

First, 'former racing driver' doesn't meen squat. I know of a couple that don't know how to ride. He obviously has motorcycle track experience. And the technique he's using should only be used at a track, like the gentlemen above stated. You can still practice what's called 'late apex', meaning you lean into the curve later than 'normal', minimizing your arc and lean angle. PLUS maximizing your view of the curve, which is a good practice on the street. But DO NOT try to do that at the limit, or even trail-braking. On the street, all your braking should be done before you enter the curve. And always look into the curve, so you can identify any hazard in advance. I personally like riding at what's called 'the pace', meaning maximum lean angle, but I don't rocket from curve to curve. I also want to enjoy the scenery. And once you learn how to read curves, you can enter them at pretty much the exact speed you want. And don't forget to leave a bit of safety margin for an unexpected obstacle. I removed all 'chicken strips' on my tires on my first trip, and had nary a hiccup. In fact, my goal to judge corner entry is not to use the brakes at all, and I didn't touch them once in the twisties. That's my goal. If you get too hot, since my goal is not to touch the brakes, just a touch is enough to scrub any extra speed. I still lean the bike completely, which is the fun part for me. But in a safe manner. And yes, I've been to a couple of track school camps for both bikes and cars, meaning I'm comfortable pushing this bike (but not a hyperbike) to its limits if needed. THAT is another very important factor. If you don't have the ability to push your bike to maximum braking and maximum lean angle, you're much more likely to crash, especially if pushing the envelope. Finally, many riders can push their bikes following somebody, meaning they're leaving the curve-reading to the guy in front. But when you're on your own, if you don't have that ability, you better get that skill little by little, especially using track techniques like late braking, etc., which require utmost accuracy. And even the best racers get it wrong all the time and crash. Be safe man.

[jimmymac]

Are you kidding  me?

[gPink]

A man's got to know his limitations. 

[Rick Hall]

I'd like to focus on the way in the curve here: after following me for a while, he told me that I brake too soon, that my line is too smooth for my own speed. ...

Does he (has he) ridden a Diversion? Is he old an old fart?

It's been my general experience that most riders can apply more front brake when setting up for a corner. In the corner too. But too much application of the front brake can have disastrous results, especially when leaned over and at the limit of traction.

You ride fine, better than 99% of the riders in EU in my opinion. I couldn't keep up anyway

Investigate taking some racing training. Preferably on someone elses bike.

Rick

[Racer Boy]

Being a former racing driver does mean squat, because the former racing driver has experienced the limits of braking, and working up to them. The mechanics aren't quite exactly the same, but they are pretty close between bikes and cars.

Personally, I recommend finding another way to try to keep up with a quicker rider. Slow in, fast out is a much easier and safer approach. The only time I've crashed on a street bike was trying to keep up with a buddy, and I out-braked myself and ran out of road.

[AlbertaDoug]

A man's got to know his limitations. 

+1


Mine seem to change with age and not being as in invinceable  as I use to be.

[connie14boy]

Last weekend in Italy I was riding behind a guy who is a former racing driver. Every single curve he would carry the same speed in the curve, both of us at the limit of the lean angle of the tires, but he kept getting away from me during the ride.
After looking at him with more attention, I realised that he brakes later and leans the bike into the curve in a much more aggressive way, and applies throttle sooner than me on the way out of the curve.
I'd like to focus on the way in the curve here: after following me for a while, he told me that I brake too soon, that my line is too smooth for my own speed. He explained me that I should brake later and harder, that that is all the difference between us. Leaning the bike faster or slower is a matter of trust (on the grip and steering), but the braking thing I can improve it in a blink. He also stated that (and this is the interesting bit for me/us) by braking harder, and therefore less time, the brakes would heat up less, in particular the brake fluid.
For those of us (I'm thinking Steve here) that go to the track every now and then and know how to extract speed of a bike: what do you think?

One of the things I love best about my 2009 ABS, is that you can modulate the rear brake and trail brake the twisties w/o fear of rear tire lockup and subsequent high sides. The back brake is not linked, and you can scrub as much momentum as you need to- it also seems to settle the front end nicely allowing for a quicker lean in. Warmed-up PR4's are also a requirement- they are just awesome. 

[VirginiaJim]

A man's got to know his limitations. 

That's right, PB.

[gPink]

 

[VirginiaJim]

  Just thinking about that gives me more than a chuckle.

[Kawi Ken]

More copied from The Pace-

The number-one survival skill, after mastering emergency braking, is setting
your corner-entrance speed early, or as Kenny Roberts says, "Slow in, fast out."
Street riders may get away with rushing into 99 out of 100 corners, but that last
one will have gravel, mud or a trespassing car. Setting entrance speed early will
allow you to adjust your speed and cornering line, giving you every opportunity
to handle the surprise. We've all rushed into a corner too fast and experienced
not just the terror but the lack of control when trying to herd the bike into the
bend. If you're fighting the brakes and trying to turn the bike, any surprise will be
impossible to deal with. Setting your entrance speed early and looking into the
corner allows you to determine what type of corner you're facing. Does the
radius decrease? Is the turn off-camber? Is there an embankment that may
have contributed some dirt to the corner?
Racers talk constantly about late braking, yet that technique is used only to
pass for position during a race, not to turn a quicker lap time. Hard braking blurs
the ability to judge cornering speed accurately, and most racers who rely too
heavily on the brakes find themselves passed at the corner exits because they
scrubbed off too much cornering speed. Additionally, braking late often forces
you to trail the brakes or turn the motorcycle while still braking. While light trail
braking is an excellent and useful technique to master, understand that your
front tire has only a certain amount of traction to give.
If you use a majority of the front tire's traction for braking and then ask it to
provide maximum cornering traction as well, a typical low-side crash will result.
Also consider that your motorcycle won't steer as well with the fork fully
compressed under braking. If you're constantly fighting the motorcycle while
turning, it may be because you're braking too far into the corner. All these
problems can be eliminated by setting your entrance speed early, an important
component of running the Pace.
Since you aren't hammering the brakes at every corner entrance, your
enjoyment of pure cornering will increase tremendously. You'll relish the feeling
of snapping your bike into the corner and opening the throttle as early as
possible. Racers talk about getting the drive started, and that's just as important
on the street. Notice how the motorcycle settles down and simply works better
when the throttle is open? Use a smooth, light touch on the throttle and try to
get the bike driving as soon as possible in the corner, even before the apex, the
tightest point of the corner. If you find yourself on the throttle ridiculously early,
it's an indication you can increase your entrance speed slightly by releasing the
brakes earlier.
As you sweep past the apex, you can begin to stand the bike up out of the
corner. This is best done by smoothly accelerating, which will help stand the
bike up. As the rear tire comes off full lean, it puts more rubber on the road, and
the forces previously used for cornering traction can be converted to
acceleration traction. The throttle can be rolled open as the bike stands up.

[maxtog]

Personally, I recommend finding another way to try to keep up with a quicker rider. Slow in, fast out is a much easier and safer approach.

That is exactly what I tend to do.  I know I am nowhere near the limit of the bike, but I don't care.  Although I enter too slowly, I probably do accelerate out of them more than many would.  I love the feeling of letting the acceleration stand the bike bike up and zoom out.  Seems a lot safer.

The only time I've crashed on a street bike was trying to keep up with a buddy, and I out-braked myself and ran out of road.

Yep, I think people trying to keep up with others or impress others in corners is what gets them in trouble the most.  One ends up choking or mistaking (or really finding that limit, by exceeding it).  I can't believe how fast some people often go around corners on the street.  There is so little visibility and so many potential problems on the public roads, I can't imagine it is worth it.  I can't even count how many times I suddenly encountered something on the road during a corner that was not visible going in (bicycle, pedestrian, animal, sand, gravel, water, oil, wood, roadkill, huge pothole, car over the line, etc)....  If one is going really fast, braking is extremely dangerous, as is crossing the line, and there is often nowhere to go.

Scares the crap out of me when thinking about the forces concentrated into those two, tiny little contact patches.  But I think being scared is better than being overconfident.

[martin_14]

I've read about 'the Pace' and the principle of doing a day of curves without touching the brakes, and I love it. It suites my character well because I deeply admire people who can do difficult stuff and make it look easy, and I'd like to hone those skills.
However, I am learning, and this guy knows what he's doing, so I take his advice. He's not interested in the Pace, it's just too slow for him and his way of driving. He is not violent and he never, ever in 800 miles misjudged a corner or even step on the on-coming lane. He really is a good driver.
But his ultimate goal is to go quick, and he takes falls as part of the sport. On the other hand, my goal is to enjoy the drive, which means going quick (just not as him, even if I had the skills)  while keeping the rubber down. I don't take falls as part of the day, and I am rather afraid of falling.
I do push the bike to its limits, I do run out of chicken strips, and I'm always on the rear brake and getting out of curves bringing the bike up by throttle application. But I have a deficit when it comes to braking before the curve. My technique has room for improvement. I know this. So I wanted to discuss it with you guys. So far, it's working. Keep them coming.

@Rick: thanks for your kindness. But let's agree that if an old fart on a Diversion (not saying names!) can follow another not so young fart on a C14, then the guy on the C14 needs to learn a thing or five 

[jimmymac]

Downshift.








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