Author Topic: Speedometer  (Read 5569 times)

Offline lather

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Speedometer
« on: February 19, 2015, 03:49:57 PM »
I went for a 95 mile ride today with my Garmin Nuvi 550 to check the speedometer and odometer correction provided by the Bridgestone T30 GT 190/55 I put on two weeks ago. The speedo is high only 1 MPH showing 61 at 60 indicated by the GPS compared to the speedo showing 64 with a T30 GT 190/50. The GPS trip record says exactly 95.0 miles while the trip odometer shows 94.5.  With various 190/50 tites the odometer would show about 104 miles for every 100 GPS miles.

I am surprised that the strip odometer is actually reading slightly low and the speed is still 1 mph high.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 05:16:59 PM by maxtog »
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 03:55:10 PM »
I went for a 95 mile ride today with my Garmin Nuvi 550 to check the speedometer and odometer correction provided by the Bridgestone T30 GT 190/55 I put on two weeks ago. The speedo is high only 1 MPH showing 61 at 60 indicated by the GPS compared to the speedo showing 64 with a T30 GT 190/50. The GPS trip record says exactly 95.0 miles while the trip odometer shows 94.5.  With various 190/50 tites the odometer would show about 104 miles for every 100 GPS miles.

I am surprised that the strip odometer is actually reading slightly low and the speed is still 1 mph high.

I'm surprised your speedo is that accurate. I assume your using a 55 profile rear tire?

Offline Deziner

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 04:28:48 PM »
While I have the exhaust off I figured wth, so I polished the mid pipes. (Muzzy exhaust)
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Offline lather

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 05:14:14 PM »
I'm surprised your speedo is that accurate. I assume your using a 55 profile rear tire?
Yes sir. By the way, I don't notice much difference in handling.
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Offline tomp

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 07:58:52 PM »
I went for a 95 mile ride today with my Garmin Nuvi 550 to check the speedometer and odometer correction provided by the Bridgestone T30 GT 190/55 I put on two weeks ago. The speedo is high only 1 MPH showing 61 at 60 indicated by the GPS compared to the speedo showing 64 with a T30 GT 190/50. The GPS trip record says exactly 95.0 miles while the trip odometer shows 94.5.  With various 190/50 tites the odometer would show about 104 miles for every 100 GPS miles.

I am surprised that the strip odometer is actually reading slightly low and the speed is still 1 mph high.

I've always read/heard that speedos were set fast to avoid speed limit violation liabilities, but odometers were to be accurate, in stock form, for warranties, accurate mileage numbers ect.  Just curious about your stock odo numbers being off.  tomp
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 07:01:34 AM »
I've always read/heard that speedos were set fast to avoid speed limit violation liabilities, but odometers were to be accurate, in stock form, for warranties, accurate mileage numbers ect.  Just curious about your stock odo numbers being off.  tomp

I've read the same thing but I don't get it. They don't do that with cars. The speedos in my Nissan Titan and my Ford Escape are dead on accurate. In fact I think its more of a problem because I am always adding the 5% even when I know there is LEO around. I've found myself doing it in my truck and have to remind myself. The only bikes I've checked the speeds versus GPS are Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki and they seem to be the same ~5% off. Are other bikes from other countries like that? Harley, BMW, Ducati?

Offline Deziner

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2015, 07:10:28 AM »
With my Electra Glide the speedo was 2 under at 80 with a new Michelin tire.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2015, 07:20:24 AM »
With my Electra Glide the speedo was 2 under at 80 with a new Michelin tire.

Definitely more accurate than any of the Japanese bikes I've owned. My C14 is doing 75 when it reads 79 on a new 50 profile tire. The only reason I can think of for setting a speedo to read faster then the actual speed on a bike versus car is that due to the round tire and flat spot when worn, there is way more variation on a bike from tires then on a car. Even still, 5% off on a new tire is way too much. ~2% as you describe on your Harley sounds way more reasonable. But they should make it accurate for a new tire at full pressure. Then as the tire wears and if pressure is allowed to drop the speedo will read faster than the actual speed. No liability.

Offline lather

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2015, 07:21:21 AM »
I assumed speed and mileage is derived from the same sensor in the ignition system but I have no idea how the readouts are calculated.

It has always seemed to be the online consensus that GPS speed and mileage data are very accurate but I have never seen any expert discussion of it. I believe  the typical Garmin GPS is accurate to within 20 or 30 ft. My Forerunner 305 actually shows the real-time accuracy which varies  a bit but is usually at 18-22 ft. My Nuvi does not give this data but I expect it is similar. Considering such a level of accuracy I would assume that the speed and distance calculations are quite accurate at the mile per hour scale but who really knows?

At any rate, I have always used a GPS with my C14 on any long rides and with a 50 aspect rear tire both the speed and  trip meter has been significantly optimistic compared to the GPS.  About 4%. It does not seem to make sense that with the 55 aspect tire the speed could still be 1 mph high but the trip odometer now slightly low. It probably comes down to error in my observation. As my GPS is currently mounted I cannot see it and the speedometer simultaneously.


I've always read/heard that speedos were set fast to avoid speed limit violation liabilities, but odometers were to be accurate, in stock form, for warranties, accurate mileage numbers ect.  Just curious about your stock odo numbers being off.  tomp
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Offline lather

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2015, 07:23:54 AM »
I've read the same thing but I don't get it. They don't do that with cars. The speedos in my Nissan Titan and my Ford Escape are dead on accurate. In fact I think its more of a problem because I am always adding the 5% even when I know there is LEO around. I've found myself doing it in my truck and have to remind myself. The only bikes I've checked the speeds versus GPS are Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki and they seem to be the same ~5% off. Are other bikes from other countries like that? Harley, BMW, Ducati?
I think my Ducati SuperBike is about 10% high. Either that or I was actually doing 156 in a 55 the other day :o
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2015, 07:38:34 AM »
I assumed speed and mileage is derived from the same sensor in the ignition system but I have no idea how the readouts are calculated.

It has always seemed to be the online consensus that GPS speed and mileage data are very accurate but I have never seen any expert discussion of it. I believe  the typical Garmin GPS is accurate to within 20 or 30 ft. My Forerunner 305 actually shows the real-time accuracy which varies  a bit but is usually at 18-22 ft. My Nuvi does not give this data but I expect it is similar. Considering such a level of accuracy I would assume that the speed and distance calculations are quite accurate at the mile per hour scale but who really knows?

At any rate, I have always used a GPS with my C14 on any long rides and with a 50 aspect rear tire both the speed and  trip meter has been significantly optimistic compared to the GPS.  About 4%. It does not seem to make sense that with the 55 aspect tire the speed could still be 1 mph high but the trip odometer now slightly low. It probably comes down to error in my observation. As my GPS is currently mounted I cannot see it and the speedometer simultaneously.

The location may be 20-30 ft off but the speed is still accurate and gets more accurate as you go faster. This is because it does not need the exact location for speed but rather the rate of change of the relative location. The 20-30 ft error is programed on purpose for military reasons. With proper decoding, GPS is MUCH more accurate than that.

Offline stevewfl

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2015, 07:40:34 AM »
Yeah, people swear by GPS but its not the end game.  Although more accurate than our speedo's by FAR and VERY close, GPS has error too. Many states won't allow "GPS coordinate tracks and time stamps" to be used in court when trying to prove speed within a given distance and time.




The Global Positioning System (GPS) can provide your location, altitude, and speed with near-pinpoint accuracy, but the system has intrinsic error sources that have to be taken into account when a receiver reads the GPS signals from the constellation of satellites in orbit.

The main GPS error source is due to inaccurate time-keeping by the receiver's clock. Microwave radio signals travelling at the speed of light from at least three satellites are used by the receiver's built-in computer to calculate its position, altitude and velocity.

Tiny discrepancies between the GPS receiver's onboard clock and GPS time, which synchronizes the whole global positioning system, mean distances calculated can drift. There are two solutions to this problem. The first would be to use an atomic clock in each receiver costing $100,000. The second is to use some clever mathematical trickery to account for the time-keeping error based on how the signals from three or more satellite signals are detected by the receiver, which essentially allows the receiver to reset its clock. The latter is the less expensive solution used by Navigation device manufacturers.

There is also an intrinsic error source in GPS associated with the way the system works. GPS receivers analyze three signals from satellites in the system and work out how long it has taken each signal to reach them. This allows them to carry out a trilateration calculation to pinpoint the exact location of the receiver. The signals are transmitted by the satellites at a specific rate.

Unfortunately, the electronic detector in standard GPS devices is accurate to just 1 percent of a bit time. This is approximately 10 billionths of a second (10 nanoseconds). Given that the GPS microwave signals travel at the speed of light, this equates to an error of about 3 meters. So standard GPS cannot determine position to greater than 3-metre accuracy. More sophisticated GPS receivers used by the military are ten times more accurate to 300 millimeters.

Other errors arise because of atmospheric disturbances that distort the signals before they reach a receiver. Reflections from buildings and other large, solid objects can lead to GPS accuracy problems too. There may also be problems with the time-keeping accuracy and the data onboard a particular satellite. These accuracy problems are circumvented by GPS receivers which endeavor to lock on to more than three satellites to get consistent data.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2015, 07:50:49 AM »
Yeah, people swear by GPS but its not the end game.  Although more accurate than our speedo's by FAR and VERY close, GPS has error too. Many states won't allow "GPS coordinate tracks and time stamps" to be used in court when trying to prove speed within a given distance and time.




The Global Positioning System (GPS) can provide your location, altitude, and speed with near-pinpoint accuracy, but the system has intrinsic error sources that have to be taken into account when a receiver reads the GPS signals from the constellation of satellites in orbit.

The main GPS error source is due to inaccurate time-keeping by the receiver's clock. Microwave radio signals travelling at the speed of light from at least three satellites are used by the receiver's built-in computer to calculate its position, altitude and velocity.

Tiny discrepancies between the GPS receiver's onboard clock and GPS time, which synchronizes the whole global positioning system, mean distances calculated can drift. There are two solutions to this problem. The first would be to use an atomic clock in each receiver costing $100,000. The second is to use some clever mathematical trickery to account for the time-keeping error based on how the signals from three or more satellite signals are detected by the receiver, which essentially allows the receiver to reset its clock. The latter is the less expensive solution used by Navigation device manufacturers.

There is also an intrinsic error source in GPS associated with the way the system works. GPS receivers analyze three signals from satellites in the system and work out how long it has taken each signal to reach them. This allows them to carry out a trilateration calculation to pinpoint the exact location of the receiver. The signals are transmitted by the satellites at a specific rate.

Unfortunately, the electronic detector in standard GPS devices is accurate to just 1 percent of a bit time. This is approximately 10 billionths of a second (10 nanoseconds). Given that the GPS microwave signals travel at the speed of light, this equates to an error of about 3 meters. So standard GPS cannot determine position to greater than 3-metre accuracy. More sophisticated GPS receivers used by the military are ten times more accurate to 300 millimeters.

Other errors arise because of atmospheric disturbances that distort the signals before they reach a receiver. Reflections from buildings and other large, solid objects can lead to GPS accuracy problems too. There may also be problems with the time-keeping accuracy and the data onboard a particular satellite. These accuracy problems are circumvented by GPS receivers which endeavor to lock on to more than three satellites to get consistent data.

All true but GPS speed at 60mph is still accurate to less than 0.5 mph and as accurate as 0.1 mph. That's more accurate then the width of the needle on your speedo.

Offline Rhino

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2015, 07:57:58 AM »
Now you have me wondering if GLONASS is more or less accurate than GPS.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2015, 10:33:32 AM »
I do not think that is correct. In the olden days, the DOD used to 'dither' the signals from the satellites to make [non US military] GPS readings less accurate. Of course the US military stripped the dithering out of the signal. Funny thing in this story is that dithering was actually turned off so more military units could use the accurate signal during the first Gulf war (1991). The next need for accuracy was that the flight community wanted to use GPS but it was simply not accurate enough to guarantee putting a liner ON the runway every single time. So in addition to the best possible GPS calculated accuracy, another system, this time ground based, was added to reduce the error of the original GPS calculated signal; these systems are continent based and in the US it is called Wide Area Augmentation System (it is the WAAS feature in a road use GPS you can turn ON or OFF). Given this correction, GPS is now accurate enough to put the biggest aircraft onto the smallest able runway in the US directly.

Standard GPS has an expected accuracy of 10 to 15 meters. GPS augmented with WAAS is quite a bit better: 1 meter laterally and 1.5 meters vertically throughout most of the US and Canada.

The accuracy shown is not really accuracy but a thing called circular error probability, which is basically a Gaussian curve showing the likelihood of being w/in the displayed distance of the most likely center or actual position.

For really accurate needs, a thing called differential GPS is used. Expensive, complex and somewhat large, the systems are capable of really impressive accuracy; better than 1/2" CEP. Or, for a 'real life' example, accurate enough to actually measure the average adult male's (Easy Boys!) foot size accurately enough for a comfortable fit.

Brian

The location may be 20-30 ft off but the speed is still accurate and gets more accurate as you go faster. This is because it does not need the exact location for speed but rather the rate of change of the relative location. The 20-30 ft error is programed on purpose for military reasons. With proper decoding, GPS is MUCH more accurate than that.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2015, 10:38:46 AM »
Yep, it is: the Vehicle Speed Sensor located in the bevel gear housing (it actually watches one of the bevel gear teeth 'go by') is used for speed. Speed over time is distance, and the ECU figures out that one too, all from that VSS sensor.

The engine's RPM is calculated from the crankshaft position sensor. Funny thing but in the olden' days, the tachometer used the spark signal to calculate engine RPM. These days, the ECU actually sets the engine RPM by taking over control of when the spark plug actually fires.

Brian

I assumed speed and mileage is derived from the same sensor in the ignition system but I have no idea how the readouts are calculated.

<snip>
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Offline Deziner

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2015, 11:13:36 AM »
Yep, it is: the Vehicle Speed Sensor located in the bevel gear housing (it actually watches one of the bevel gear teeth 'go by') is used for speed. Speed over time is distance, and the ECU figures out that one too, all from that VSS sensor.

Brian


I'm not sure that is correct in all cases. I have worked on vehicles that didn't route the speed sensor through the ECU. The wiring went directly to the speedometer itself.

I haven't done the research for a Concours but, multiple manufacturers have a product to correct electronic speedometers when the consumer changes gearing or wheel size. Might worth a look if one is serious about speedometer accuracy.
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Offline Deziner

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2015, 12:11:47 PM »
After looking at the factory wiring diagram, I don't think the ECU affects the speedometer. There are 3 wires at the speed sensor, a ground, a voltage feed, and a signal wire. The voltage feed comes from the instrument cluster, the signal wire branches off with one end going to the speedo and the other going to the ECU, and the ground goes to, well, ground.

From what I can tell, the ECU uses the info from the speed sensor for the MPG and DTE functions. At some point I'll try to contact some folks I know concerning the use of a speedometer "correction" device and whether or not they think it could be adapted to the Concours in a simple manner.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2015, 01:01:21 PM »
Either way ,the result is the same: the displayed vehicle speed (via the speedometer) is not mechanical in any way, it is a series of pulses from the VSS, which in the case of the C-14, is sensing the passing of the teeth of a bevel gear. Unplug that sensor and ride the bike.... no speedo display. I am probably a bit more familiar with that sensor than some after watching it for a while with an oscilliscope while trying to figure out how to interface a Rostra to the C-14. Some vehicles, such as the Feejer, have too high a pulse train from the VSS requiring a decade counter to reduce it; we lucked out with the C-14 as its output is right at the edge of the Rostra's input range.

By the way, the 'analog displays' of both the speedo and tach are not analog; they are stepper motors being commanded to go to a given rotational position. The fact that there is a needle pointing to a painted number is incidental to their operation. When you turn the ignition on on a C-14, assuming the dreaded KiPass failure has not happened (!!!), the gauges cycling to the stops on both ends of the sweep is how they calibrate themselves to reference zero (which is just below the counter-clockwise stop).

Brian

I'm not sure that is correct in all cases. I have worked on vehicles that didn't route the speed sensor through the ECU. The wiring went directly to the speedometer itself.

I haven't done the research for a Concours but, multiple manufacturers have a product to correct electronic speedometers when the consumer changes gearing or wheel size. Might worth a look if one is serious about speedometer accuracy.
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Offline tomp

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Re: Re: What did you do to your Concours today?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2015, 02:20:55 PM »
The only way to be sure is to travel through a known speed trap at xx miles over the posted speed limit and see what the LEO says you were traveling, according to his/her radar. A citation, fine and insurance increase may come along for the ride too, so consider deeply before trying this method.  I have a 35MPH reader up the road from me, and the C14 reads 37, when the read out is 35.  I have searched for a readout above that speed, but haven't found one.  Asked a local LEO, and he wasn't aware of one either.  It's a conspiracy, I know it is.  The city wants my money.... tp.   ;D ;D ;D >:( 
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