Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)

[Son of Pappy]

Suggestion, and not an easy one to follow.  Someone with a bike that is running as the OPs before "Calibration", hook the KDS up, run a diagnostic.  Do the procedure, re check numbers.

Another, easier idea.  KDS, in hand, get a base reading as it stands on a warm bike.  Do the procedure with a throttle lock stopping the throttle say %20 from true closed.  Without moving the throttle lock, check to get another reading.  Remove the throttle lock, third set of readings, and finally, do the procedure again, and get a final reading.

%20 may be too large of a variance, so maybe %10?

No dog is this mess, again, just curious...

[B.D.F.]

Have not contacted them on this. At this point, the "data" coming in is so... er, "unorganized" that I have no idea what to tell them? If I was to say 'there is a thought that there is a calibration procedure for the ECU regarding throttle position that involves no feedback during or after the calibration process, seems to work less than 1/2 of the time, never results in any negative changes but sometimes positive ones (again, less than 1/2 of the time), and may cause smoother shifting and better cornering' I am afraid it might be looked upon with a jaundiced eye.  I mean, the whole think kinda' sounds like throwing salt over your shoulder, right? It does no harm, may do some good and often seems to do nothing.

But hey, if it works for some, by all means do it (either the 'salt over the shoulder' or the 'throttle calibration' thing). I just cannot bring this to professionals with a serious expectation. Which is why I have said right along, data would be great and I do not know of any. ??

Brian

Looks like several Positive results, many no changes, and zero negatives.  A win win in most books. 

Is there a similar poll on the other forums?  If so, similar results?  Fully getting the no pics/documentation it never happened (2 1286 mile day trips in a seven day period, documented, never filed, THEY happened, and plenty of off road off bike occurrences that never made primetime digits), but based on what I am seeing SOMETHING is happening and it APPEARS nothing negative.  Surely there must be some type of empirical data out there.

Brian, any luck with MJTP at Mama Kaw?

[Son of Pappy]

Skip the cornering and shifting bit, throw in KIPASS is awesome, and you should receive a round trip ticket to the mother ship

If the other forums are having similar reports and someone could crunch the numbers I would think you may have the ammo you seek.

[tomp]

We know that something/changes are going on with this procedure.  Too many positive results to all be a placebo effect.  If this is the case, someone(s) at Kawasaki has to be aware of the whats and why fors, concerning the procedure.  No reason to keep it a secret, if it has been designed as a corrective technique, at least no reason I can see.  We know other companies use something similar for TPS correction, so why not by Kawi for the 14, and possibly other models in their line up of motor vehicles... ?

[Son of Pappy]

Shhhhhhhhh, I just saw a green (subdued, with HP2 on the side) helicopter flying over.  I better put the German, Austrian, and Italian bikes under cover, I think they may be onto me   The Honda and Yami don't run, so they should be safe

[VirginiaJim]

This 'seems' to be working with people that are having issues with the throttle.  Those that aren't don't get any better results from the procedure.  I'm thinking that there is something to it.  The only entity that could confirm it is Kwakers.

[Rembrant]

Suggestion, and not an easy one to follow.  Someone with a bike that is running as the OPs before "Calibration", hook the KDS up, run a diagnostic.  Do the procedure, re check numbers.

Another, easier idea.  KDS, in hand, get a base reading as it stands on a warm bike.  Do the procedure with a throttle lock stopping the throttle say %20 from true closed.  Without moving the throttle lock, check to get another reading.  Remove the throttle lock, third set of readings, and finally, do the procedure again, and get a final reading.

%20 may be too large of a variance, so maybe %10?

I've done all this already, and posted the readings and results, and they were more or less dismissed...lol. It was mentioned that the actual TPS voltages don't really matter...it's "what the ECU does with them"....whatever that means, I'm not really sure.

At the end of the day, I'm glad there are guys that are getting their bikes working much better using this calibration method.

I guess I'll just wait and see if somebody posts up why some C14 riders are seeing good results.

Rem

[lather]

I suggest that this could be about some sort of mechanical hangup in the throttle system - grip, cables, throttle shaft and spring, etc.; due to dirt or grime. The full turn procedure merely "clears" the mechanical hangup.

[B.D.F.]

That idea might have some merit. Thinking about how the sensors work on these things, they are nothing more or less than a long electrical path with a variable placement of the pick-up. When the pick-up is close to one side, the voltage will be very low. At the other end, the voltage will approach full voltage (usually 5 volts but that does not really matter). And everywhere in-between those points, the voltage will vary in proportion to the travel of the pick-up.... or so it is supposed to work. These units are sealed and usually have a pair of wipers along with the contact (the pick-up); one wiper on either side. These wipers pick up any dust or debris given off by the wear of the contact and the resistance element.

Now most of us use throttles on vehicles w/in a fairly narrow range for the most part. And at least some people simply do not use full throttle or even close to it often or perhaps more than rarely. So- it is common to find these sensors with both a wear pattern in a very small portion of the travel as well as debris piled up on both sides of the wiper's limited travel. Now that debris is conductive, and depending on how it builds up, it could and will change the resistance of the entire sensor (not just the area where the debris actually is). So.... it is possible that two or more full sweeps of the throttle serve to clean the face of the resistance element and restore it to the same value it had when stock.

For whatever it is worth, this not only makes sense to me but I believe IS happening on some level for everyone who does not twist the throttle to the WOT position each and every ride. Also, as these are very inexpensive sensors, some are probably better sealed than others so it would have more of an effect on some vehicles. And lastly, it also would explain why this operation cannot cause a bike to run poorly and only improve things if or when it does anything at all.

And if you guys want to throw and old, logic based guy like me a bone (Easy Boys! Not THAT kind!), let's stop calling it a "recalibration" and rather a throttle cycling or something. 'Cause I still do not believe it is, or ever was, any kind of recalibration.

Just a thought....

Brian

I suggest that this could be about some sort of mechanical hangup in the throttle system - grip, cables, throttle shaft and spring, etc.; due to dirt or grime. The full turn procedure merely "clears" the mechanical hangup.

[martin_14]

Well, your thoughts make sense, except that I, for one, use the full throttle daily, and my bike has had the "snatchy" throttle from day one. Now's 99% gone. I have to admit that I don't know why... 

As a bike owner, I don't really care, but as an engineer it's driving me nuts.

[MAN OF BLUES]

Tried this on my bike today but as it was running correctly and very well already, I tried to knock it out of correct adjustment. Opened the throttle about 1/4" at the grip edge, then did the 'calibration' sequence, using that 1/4" throttle open point as 'closed' for both cycles. It made no difference in the way the bike runs or idled as far as I can tell.

Brian

Interesting. It seems as if those of us with great running 08's, like you Jim, and myself, don't see the astounding changes purported, and no change in idle.
BUT, did you actually do the procedure during a ride, with the bike fully up to temp? And then further ride it as a comparo?

I did, and the ONLY thing I found/felt might have changed, was a minute change in the start off ride smoothness, kinda like when we took all the slack out of our throttle cables way back when to make the takeoff smoother, less lurchy. Other than that, I did not attempet to trick the bike by radically changing throtle positions to emulate a new setpoint out of the existing range. Might be something specific between our original programs, and programs applied to later issue bikes. I dunno. I do feel a slight change, and it seems smoother on lof speed controlled takeoffs and manouvers, but that is all. In my book its not a busted myth, and I have to say it is "plausable" a-la-mythbusters.
It was free, didn't degrade my performance, and worthy of trying it, and riding it in a comparo. Simply doing the technique, and listening to idle, ain't telling squat, you have to ride it and try it during a ride. After its done, there is no way to go back to what it "was" to compare again, so the first time changes are what have to be judged.

[Son of Pappy]

More food for thought.  The PCIII and PCV both require "Calibration", it gets the readings from the TPS and it makes a difference, those same readings are being read/sent to the ECU.  Maybe there is a procedure during assembly that has been skipped on some bikes?  Maybe the bikes with PCs installed unwittingly reset (For Brian  )the ECU to the correct reading.

The TPS is a critical part of the ECU and FI.  It doesn't take much to make things bad.

Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off?  Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle to WOT.

I do not have any type of Kawi source/contact, if I did I would be asking them, surely out of curiosity someone will make the call?

[MAN OF BLUES]

To add..
You may recall my reporting a couple years ago of sever Kirby damage down the the wire bundle 3 inches from my TPS, where I had to do on bike harness repair up in there using liquid tape, and electrical tape to restore damaged insulation on those wires. Each wire had bare, and in some cases gnawed strands, possibly reducing their integrety by a small percentage.. we see that often times the plugins also go thru some degraded performance, and may become resistive again, therefore it may have been this effect that was remedied.... folks might want to unplug and replug that harness to see effects also prior to recal procedures... my situation was damage on the TPS side of the connector, therefore my repair was a bit difficult at that time... reaching in there and patching stuff....not fun, but fixed.
Ymmv

[martin_14]

Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off?  Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle...

Hey!!! I shower every second thursday, whether I need it or not 
 

[Rembrant]

Interesting. It seems as if those of us with great running 08's, like you Jim, and myself, don't see the astounding changes purported, and no change in idle.
BUT, did you actually do the procedure during a ride, with the bike fully up to temp? And then further ride it as a comparo?

Just out of curiosity, do you or anybody else have any reason to explain why the bike's temperature would have anything to do with a throttle calibration? I'm trying to understand why there would be a correlation between throttle position and engine temperature...

Just curious. I keep following this thread, waiting for somebody to offer up some type of logical explanation, other than what they "feel" in how the engine runs.

More food for thought.  The PCIII and PCV both require "Calibration", it gets the readings from the TPS and it makes a difference, those same readings are being read/sent to the ECU.  Maybe there is a procedure during assembly that has been skipped on some bikes?  Maybe the bikes with PCs installed unwittingly reset (For Brian  )the ECU to the correct reading.

The TPS is a critical part of the ECU and FI.  It doesn't take much to make things bad.

Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off?  Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle to WOT.

I do not have any type of Kawi source/contact, if I did I would be asking them, surely out of curiosity someone will make the call?

The Dynojet products (PCIII & PC5) don't send or write any information to the ECU. They are more or less dumb, and exist and operate all on their own. They do read the throttle position for reference, but they don't do anything with the TPS voltages, and they don't manipulate the signal in any way. All they do is modify the signal the ECU sends to the injectors...nothing more.

And, like I've mentioned several times previously in this thread, the ECU isn't as smart as people think it is. The TPS signal, nor the ECU's reading of it, is anywhere even close to the resolution of a 1-1000 scale. It's more like a 1-14 scale, that's it. The ECU's fuel map table has only 14 columns (I forget exactly, but I think it's 14). So, the TPS .68v to 3.68v scale is only divided into 14 by the ECU...it's really quite crude...and the PC products are even less refined (they have more like 10 columns). Even if it was off by 1.5%, it wouldn't make any difference that the common man would notice.

Kawasaki would set the WOT TPS voltage first, then the 0% throttle voltage will fall within the correct range...it may vary by several percent on any given bike...it really doesn't matter at that point.

HTH,
Rem

[B.D.F.]

Gee, didn't you like my logical explanation?    You know, the one about wiping the entire surface of the potentiometer with the internal (Easy Boys!) wiper?

 

Brian

<snip>

Just curious. I keep following this thread, waiting for somebody to offer up some type of logical explanation, other than what they "feel" in how the engine runs.

<snip>

[Rembrant]

Gee, didn't you like my logical explanation?    You know, the one about wiping the entire surface of the potentiometer with the internal (Easy Boys!) wiper?

 

Brian

Hahaha...yes, that, and the quote below actually make sense to me...lol.

I suggest that this could be about some sort of mechanical hangup in the throttle system - grip, cables, throttle shaft and spring, etc.; due to dirt or grime. The full turn procedure merely "clears" the mechanical hangup.

[B.D.F.]

Yep. The bike was already ridden when I did the [not a re-calibration but that is what some are calling it] procedure. :-)  Although as Cory pointed out, that would not make any difference other than to set a different 0 (zero) point if the engine was cold enough to engage the fast idle cam and the user was trying to use the idle position of the throttle as a reference point, which I was not doing.

And as you say, my bike has always run correctly and very well- there is nothing to fix on my bike so I was not even bothering to look for that. I was instead trying to miss- calibrate  the works by setting 0 (zero) position at about 1/4" open. I used a piece of tape to return the throttle to that exact position (such as my mark I eyeballs are capable of) repeatedly. Now if anything did respond and react to this procedure, the ECU would have thought that the actual idle point was quite a long way from where the throttle is when it really idles- and that absolutely would have forced the bike to run poorly indeed. But it did not. And I have to say I cannot see any way any calibration procedure could only have the capacity to calibrate the system 'correctly'; if it can actually be calibrated, I would have badly miss- calibrated my bike.

But all of this is merely what I found and again, not data or evidence of any kind. Just more empiracal 'stuff' for the heap really. Data would consist of O2 readings showing the difference of the 'before' and 'after', or put another way, 'calibrated' and 'miss- calibrated'.

Brian

Interesting. It seems as if those of us with great running 08's, like you Jim, and myself, don't see the astounding changes purported, and no change in idle.
BUT, did you actually do the procedure during a ride, with the bike fully up to temp? And then further ride it as a comparo?

[B.D.F.]

Yes, Power Commanders do require a calibration and when one is performing that, one is both extremely aware that it is being done and there is feedback that it actually has been done, on both ends of the throttle position. This is one of several problems I have with this "secret procedure" to re-calibrate the TPS on the bike: it could be done accidentally and that would be disastrous.

But at any rate, no one has to convince me or satisfy me that this actually works. We are all merely discussing it here and not arguing. Besides, I do not want to 'win' but would much rather find out why some people are finding this procedure makes a difference and my original thoughts being right or wrong is irrelevant.

Brian

More food for thought.  The PCIII and PCV both require "Calibration", it gets the readings from the TPS and it makes a difference, those same readings are being read/sent to the ECU.  Maybe there is a procedure during assembly that has been skipped on some bikes?  Maybe the bikes with PCs installed unwittingly reset (For Brian  )the ECU to the correct reading.

The TPS is a critical part of the ECU and FI.  It doesn't take much to make things bad.

Using a scale of 1000, 0 being full closed, 1000 being full open (Made up numbers for simplicity, I aint no stinking engineer) if the ECU is reading %1.5 off?  Once "Reset" the air/fuel ratios are matched and results in a smooth transition from off idle to WOT.

I do not have any type of Kawi source/contact, if I did I would be asking them, surely out of curiosity someone will make the call?

[B.D.F.]

Hey Martin, I thought for sure you were going to tell him engineers make up simple numbers too 'cause making up complicated numbers is harder (Easy Boys!).

 

Brian

Hey!!! I shower every second thursday, whether I need it or not