Author Topic: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!  (Read 51192 times)

Offline Two Skies

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2013, 04:20:28 PM »
Ryan, this is something that I'd like you to comment on... when looking at the guards, I keep thinking that there should be something to discourage the bike from laying further flat/rotating on the contact points on the pavement.  In a drop, this probably isn't a big issue, but in a slide, I keep thinking that a 'plane' for the bike to settle on might be preferable, to prevent damage to the mirrors, brake handles and such.

The other goal here is to increase the height of the upper contact point for the bars higher off the ground, to get closer/above if possible to the bike's center of gravity in a fall.

I've had this happen with my Millerized pegs, where the bike was laying flat on the pegs after a fall, with the tires well off the ground.  The Millerized pegs attach where you have your lower attachment for your guard.  I've ended up replacing my mirrors and brake handles (and have a damaged brake handle currently) due to this (bike rotating on the pegs/coming down harder on the mirrors and handebars).

I've attached a modified photo to show what I was thinking r.e. adding a 'skid plane' to the bars.  I'd like your thoughts on this, and your experience with other bikes with guards r.e. something along these lines.
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2013, 04:42:02 PM »
I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you here.  It is indeed possible to flip the bracket (and lengthen the guard in the process), and still clear the fairing.  I've attached two photos below, showing how you'd design the guard bracket (note the slight rotation clockwise), by either using a spacer to clear the engine mount bolt, or perhaps using a step bracket design (not shown). 
I suppose you're right, it is possible I just don't think it's necessarily worth it. If we were to go that route, the bracket would be sticking out of the fairing and might look a tad goofy from the front because of how far it would have to be spaced in order to clear the engine mount bolt. It'd also be a very tight fit. Also, not only would the lengthened bar be a tad more expensive (although not by much) the extra bracket work, bends, and welds are what would primarily drive up the cost. Is having the auxiliary lighting an extra 3" higher really worth it? Couldn't you always angle the light up very slightly to achieve the same effect without any additional cost? I can't seem to find the photo but a lot of people are fond of those lights that mount to the front axle and those things are way lower than what you could potentially mount to this guard and seem to work okay. Besides, only a small percentage of people who purchase our Canyon Cages add auxiliary lighting. So we'd be punishing a bunch (by having a higher cost) for the benefit of few.

I totally understand where you're coming from and don't mean to argue with you (because I do appreciate all opinions!) but we're also on a very strict time constraint and I don't think spending the time making that change to the top mount is a good way to spend the last few hours we have with the bike. There are other, more important factors we can fine tune in that time I think.

Ryan, this is something that I'd like you to comment on... when looking at the guards, I keep thinking that there should be something to discourage the bike from laying further flat/rotating on the contact points on the pavement.  In a drop, this probably isn't a big issue, but in a slide, I keep thinking that a 'plane' for the bike to settle on might be preferable, to prevent damage to the mirrors, brake handles and such.

The other goal here is to increase the height of the upper contact point for the bars higher off the ground, to get closer/above if possible to the bike's center of gravity in a fall.

I've had this happen with my Millerized pegs, where the bike was laying flat on the pegs after a fall, with the tires well off the ground.  The Millerized pegs attach where you have your lower attachment for your guard.  I've ended up replacing my mirrors and brake handles (and have a damaged brake handle currently) due to this (bike rotating on the pegs/coming down harder on the mirrors and handebars).

I've attached a modified photo to show what I was thinking r.e. adding a 'skid plane' to the bars.  I'd like your thoughts on this, and your experience with other bikes with guards r.e. something along these lines.
Honestly, we've never had that issue with any of our other Canyon Cage designs and they all use the same size tubing and a relatively similar shape that ends up contacting the ground. You'd be surprised the amount of force it takes to get the bike to roll over that initial contact point. Even people that go over at speed usually don't end up hitting their mirrors, exhaust, etc. The guard usually does a fantastic job of protecting the bike. I do agree that those skid plates would certainly make it tougher for the bike to roll over the initial contact point but I think there are more cons than pros with an addition like that. Additionally, I think something like those skid plates might look a tad weird and take away from the aesthetics of the guard.

I know this is a different bike (C14) but the guards are similar in their shape and the way the contact point hits the ground. Check out the video below of how much the bike wants to rest on that guard. The video is showing a guy pushing the bike slightly over the rocking point and the bike springs right back up to resting on the guard. Like I said, it's much more difficult to get the bike to rock over that initial point and more secure than people assume which is understandable based on the look of the guard.

Concours Canyon Cage Contact Point

Anyway, we pretty much have the design set and it's looking pretty darn good I think. We decided to keep the brace because the added strength will certainly come in handy for the people who end up dropping their bike. Also, we were required to move the brace up slightly (3/8", I believe) so it would match the right hand side and I think it actually looks a bit better that way. The right side fairing is slightly different than the left and when we started building the bar for the right side, we realized the brace as we had it on the left wouldn't work unless we moved it up a bit. So, we also moved it up on the left so both sides look identical. Also, we cleaned up a few things, polished the bar, rounded off a few brackets, etc. What do you guys think?













Also, as promised, here are links to a few videos showing the removal and reinstallation of the Canyon Cage once the interior brackets are installed. 25 seconds to remove and right around 45 seconds to reinstall. It doesn't get much quicker than that. That's why I was thinking that it wouldn't be worth another $50-$75 to implement a true "quick-release" feature, especially with our current price point around $225-$250.

Removal: Kawasaki C10 Canyon Cage Removal

Reinstall: Kawsaki C10 Canyon Cage Reinstall
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Offline Two Skies

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2013, 04:55:01 PM »
Ryan,

Keep in mind that the Concours (ZG1000) is top heavy, with the 7.5 Gallon fuel tank contributing to the top-heaviness, as well as the fairing.  Add a trunk on the rear, and this makes them even more top heavy.  The C-14, by comparison, has a lower center of gravity, and has a smaller tank to boot.

While I can appreciate you not wanting to damage the donor bike, I'd suggest you do a lift test to see if you are above the center of gravity or not, and report your findings.

2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2013, 05:07:29 PM »
Ryan,

Keep in mind that the Concours (ZG1000) is top heavy, with the 7.5 Gallon fuel tank contributing to the top-heaviness, as well as the fairing.  Add a trunk on the rear, and this makes them even more top heavy.  The C-14, by comparison, has a lower center of gravity, and has a smaller tank to boot.

While I can appreciate you not wanting to damage the donor bike, I'd suggest you do a lift test to see if you are above the center of gravity or not, and report your findings.

We actually took that into account while designing the guards. That's one reason we made the guard for the C10 further out than the C14. If you look at the photos below of both the C14 and C10 Canyon Cage, you'll notice the one for the 1000 is a good few inches further out which makes it harder for the bike to roll over it. However, we haven't done any serious testing as of yet aside from gently laying the bike over. Doing any testing further than that will require the permission of the owner which I'm not sure we'll get. Of course we'd lay down thick packing blanket and pay for any resulting damage (although damage is very rarely caused) but we'd still need to talk to the owner first which I'll be doing tomorrow morning. I'm guessing we won't be able to do a full-on drop test but a test similar to that of the YouTube video of the C14 to test the roll-over point would be an awesome idea. If we end up doing, I'll shoot some pictures as well as a video.
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Offline Two Skies

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2013, 05:14:26 PM »
We actually took that into account while designing the guards. That's one reason we made the guard for the C10 further out than the C14. If you look at the photos below of both the C14 and C10 Canyon Cage, you'll notice the one for the 1000 is a good few inches further out which makes it harder for the bike to roll over it. However, we haven't done any serious testing as of yet aside from gently laying the bike over. Doing any testing further than that will require the permission of the owner which I'm not sure we'll get. Of course we'd lay down thick packing blanket and pay for any resulting damage (although damage is very rarely caused) but we'd still need to talk to the owner first which I'll be doing tomorrow morning. I'm guessing we won't be able to do a full-on drop test but a test similar to that of the YouTube video of the C14 to test the roll-over point would be an awesome idea. If we end up doing, I'll shoot some pictures as well as a video.

While a drop test would be awesome, I dont think you need to go that far.  Simply grab a front or rear wheel after the bike is laying on the bars, and try lifting the wheel and note the force required.  The bike has a 671 lb or so wet weight, so you may not be able to lift it at all.  However, if the bike is mostly balanced on your bars at that point, and you ARE able to get the wheels off the ground, THEN there may be an issue.  I'd recommend having a pillow on hand for the mirror/handlebar, and an assistant to keep the handlebar from touching the ground if it DOES look like it might go over...

Putting the bike in gear will prevent the rear from rotating of course, and an assistant could apply the front brakes to prevent the front wheel from rotating/make it easier for you to get a secure handhold on the front wheel.

Also, removing the side bag beforehand might not be a bad idea (to prevent damage), although that will lower the center of gravity slightly.  Empty sidebags aren't that heavy, so effect should be minimal, but if you consider a loaded sidebag, that will raise the center of gravity a bit in a real world situation.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 09:31:59 PM by Two Skies »
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2013, 05:19:19 PM »
While a drop test would be awesome, I dont think you need to go that far.  Simply grab a front or rear wheel after the bike is laying on the bars, and try lifting the wheel and note the force required.  The bike has a 671 lb or so wet weight, so you may not be able to lift it at all.  However, if the bike is mostly balanced on your bars at that point, and you ARE able to get the wheels off the ground, THEN there may be an issue.  I'd recommend having a pillow on hand for the mirror/handlebar, and an assistant to keep the handlebar from touching the ground if it DOES look like it might go over...

Also, removing the side bag beforehand might not be a bad idea (to prevent damage), although that will reduce the center of gravity slightly.  Empty sidebags aren't that heavy, so effect should be minimal, but if you consider a loaded sidebag, that will raise the center of gravity a bit in a real world situation.

All great points, Two Skies! We'll see if we can get that done tomorrow morning and I'll certainly report our findings.
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Offline Silverado

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2013, 08:33:28 PM »
I believe you have nailed the dilemma associated with removing and re-installing the guards....Great Job....Very Happy!!   ;D

The design is also on target....however, the suggestion on flipping the upper bracket mounting orientation has merit.  I recognize the timeline association with production and alterations definitely must be weighed against benefits, too! I do somewhat like Two Skies' suggestion.

I'm also very interested in test data.....the Connie is definitely a beast and determined in motion. 

Accolades to the team at MCE for coming up with a good design in such a short time....Thanks also for listening to the customer!   :thumbs:



« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 09:03:59 PM by Silverado »

Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2013, 10:23:14 PM »
I believe you have nailed the dilemma associated with removing and re-installing the guards....Great Job....Very Happy!!   ;D

The design is also on target....however, the suggestion on flipping the upper bracket mounting orientation has merit.  I recognize the timeline association with production and alterations definitely must be weighed against benefits, too! I do somewhat like Two Skies' suggestion.

I'm also very interested in test data.....the Connie is definitely a beast and determined in motion. 

Accolades to the team at MCE for coming up with a good design in such a short time....Thanks also for listening to the customer!   :thumbs:
Thanks, Silverado! We wouldn't have been able to come up with such a good design without all the input from those who participated. So, I sincerely thank you all!

Yea, I agree that Two Skies' suggestions certainly have merit. He's had some good ideas throughout the entire build. Unfortunately we just don't have time to mock a set up with the flipped bracket design. With that said, I don't believe keeping it the way we have it currently will be a deal-breaker for people. It's still a great design and flipping that bracket would really only benefit people who want to mount auxilary lighting and even then it'd be a minimal improvement.
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Offline Two Skies

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2013, 10:30:41 PM »
Hey Ryan!

I appreciate your desire to rush this product to completion, so bear with me on this one more time.

This may seem like beating the dead horse on my part, but your statement r.e. the mounting of driving lights goes against the conventional sage wisdom.

I suppose you're right, it is possible I just don't think it's necessarily worth it. If we were to go that route, the bracket would be sticking out of the fairing and might look a tad goofy from the front because of how far it would have to be spaced in order to clear the engine mount bolt. It'd also be a very tight fit. Also, not only would the lengthened bar be a tad more expensive (although not by much) the extra bracket work, bends, and welds are what would primarily drive up the cost. Is having the auxiliary lighting an extra 3" higher really worth it? Couldn't you always angle the light up very slightly to achieve the same effect without any additional cost? I can't seem to find the photo but a lot of people are fond of those lights that mount to the front axle and those things are way lower than what you could potentially mount to this guard and seem to work okay. Besides, only a small percentage of people who purchase our Canyon Cages add auxiliary lighting. So we'd be punishing a bunch (by having a higher cost) for the benefit of few.

I totally understand where you're coming from and don't mean to argue with you (because I do appreciate all opinions!) but we're also on a very strict time constraint and I don't think spending the time making that change to the top mount is a good way to spend the last few hours we have with the bike. There are other, more important factors we can fine tune in that time I think.
(snip)

If you are mounting Fog Lighting, lower is better.  However, for driving lights, higher is better.  From the IBA page on the subject:
Quote
Mounting The Lights

The best position for driving lights is as high as possible to the eye level of the rider and as far forward as practical. So done, full utilization of light is possible and the lights' ability to provide discernible contrast is enhanced. On the BMW K1100LT series, for example, mount the lights to the fairing in proximity to the mirrors. The underside of the fairing is reinforced for police lights. This places the lights to the inside of the mirrors, and slightly higher than the mirrors themselves, out of harm's way. Placing the lights forward precludes reflections caused by the light striking motorcycle parts before continuing down the road.
http://www.ironbutt.com/tech/auxlights.cfm

the other link I posted earlier mentioned 14 to 30 inches off of the ground for driving lights.  Web Bike World also supports mounting driving lights as high as possible.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/lights/motorcycle-driving-lights/

On the Connie, there are a couple of options, but these may involve undoing the mirrors (not the easiest thing to do) or improvising a bracket underneath the nose.  Your tipover guards are the next highest attaching point, and one that is very convenient to boot, and easy to route wiring to.  THIS is why a few of us keep asking for a higher mount.

I do recognize that with the angled guard support, you will probably need to lower the lower mounting hole a bit in order to clear the angled tube.  I'm thinking that the now unutilized mounting hole on the bottom should be sufficiently clear for this, although without having the guards in hand, I can neither confirm or deny this for certain.

I also don't see where any additional welds would be needed for a longer guard.  It's just a longer center section on the guard, with the same bends as before.

I'm just trying to make clear why there are those of us that want to see the top of the front guard as close as possible to the top of the vent.  It's your product, of course, I'm just trying to suggest how to make it a little more appealing to the customer.

There is another option to clear the engine mounting bolt on the left.  I'll have to look at the right side again to see what you are talking about r.e. the different situation on the right, but essentially you can notch the bracket tab to clear the engine mount bolt head.  More work, admittedly, but not hard to do with a torch, angle grinder, or even a drill bit that is a little larger than the engine mount bolt head, if the tab bracket is placed in a vise, and then the hole is drilled in the appropriate place.  The hole may extend slightly into the pipe depending on how thick the bracket tab is.  Any 'notch' in the pipe due to the protruding engine bolt head would be almost completely invisible to anyone inspecting the pipe, due to it's location inside the fairing scoop.  And, I am reasonably certain that the weld around the rest of the pipe/bracket tab would still be strong enough to hold the guard in place, depending on the strength of the guard tab metal.  See attached image.

Your call, though.  If most people like the guard as is, then it's a non issue.  If more people want to see the upper mount placed higher, though, that should be something to consider r.e. marketability and utility of the product.

I suppose a customer could mount the driving lights on pogo sticks instead of directly to the guard, but that might look silly...

Also, you could market two versions of the product, so that those who are willing to pay extra can purchase the taller option.  Admittedly, your market for this product is not that big to begin with, of course. 

I've noted that a good number of  the 'usual suspects', whom likely have Murphs' bars currently, have not commented so far.
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline Outback_Jon

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2013, 11:04:09 AM »
I've noted that a good number of  the 'usual suspects', whom likely have Murphs' bars currently, have not commented so far.
Maybe because we like how this is progressing without our input?   ;D  The few concerns I've had have been addressed by others comments, so far.  The easy removal is the HUGE attraction for me thus far.

The only issue I'm seeing is that I have LARGE LED driving lights.  (4" or so)  And I don't see how I could mount them without an extremely long bracket off the front of the bars, which would probably make the lights shake a lot.  But I'd probably solve that by putting smaller LED driving lights on. 

The other concern I have is with adding highway pegs.  With how much closer these bars are to the fairing, it doesn't look like highway pegs would be comfortable.  (At least not for me.)  Maybe bolt a set on (or tack weld a couple of mockups) and have someone sit on the bike and see if they work.  Looks to me like the rider's legs would have to almost bend around the fairing to make highway pegs useful.

My other concern, though, is still with the frame/engine shimming.  If the bracket that goes to the top engine bolt doesn't allow for this, it might cause fitment issues on some bikes and be fine on others.  My bike needed a washer between the frame and the engine mount on the left side.  (Without that shim, I was consistently breaking an upper engine mount bolt at least once a year.)  If the "U" section of the upper mounts allowed space for this shim (on both sides) folks that need the shim could easily put it in place on whichever side they needed.  Those that don't need the shim could easily put a washer in just inside the outer portion of the "U", between the spacer that you are providing and the bracket. 
"Outback Jon" Gould *** South Cairo, NY *** COG #9506 *** 2006 C10 "Blueline" *** CDA #0157

Offline Two Skies

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2013, 04:57:44 PM »
Hey Outback John!  Good to see some more input for Ryan!

Ryan, I had one more thought, r.e. the design of the rear bar.

Currently, there is the straight piece that is welded between the upper and lower part of the bar.  In a fall, if the rear bar should end up bending upwards, all that straight piece will likely do is keep the distance between the parts the same, but I don't think it will completely stop an upward bend from happening if sufficient force is applied.

SOOOO, I'm thinking that if this support bar was angled, from the lower outside to the upper inside of the bar, instead of being directly vertical, it might provide much more resistance against such a bend.

Admittedly, the only time I can see this being an issue is in a slide, but a 45 degree inward angle shouldn't be that hard to accomplish.  Not a big deal, but if we are adding diagonal bars already to reinforce the front bars, complementing the angle on the rear bar might look more stylish, and add strength to boot.


On that note, I've said more than enough r.e. the height of the front bar.  While I'm sure others will want to make their preferences known on this issue (i.e. would you pay more for a taller front bar, or is a lower cost more important?), I've said more than enough, and I'll leave well enough alone for now.  I very much do like the 'bones'of the front mounts behind the fairing, those look very strong to me, and I think Ryan and his team have done an excellent job in making those two attachment points quite beefy.

If the donor bike already has the 1.5 MM washer on the front left motor mount (Ryan mentioned that it did), no doubt Ryan and his team have already provided enough space for a shim.  I'd again recommend doing the same on the right side, in case anyone has a frame that is tweaked the other way, and also providing two 1.5 MM washers with the kit, to be located either as a shim or as a spacer at the end between the 'U' as Jon described it and the engine mount.  Either way the gap ends up getting filled.
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2013, 10:18:31 AM »
This may seem like beating the dead horse on my part, but your statement r.e. the mounting of driving lights goes against the conventional sage wisdom.

If you are mounting Fog Lighting, lower is better.  However, for driving lights, higher is better.  From the IBA page on the subject:
the other link I posted earlier mentioned 14 to 30 inches off of the ground for driving lights.  Web Bike World also supports mounting driving lights as high as possible.

On the Connie, there are a couple of options, but these may involve undoing the mirrors (not the easiest thing to do) or improvising a bracket underneath the nose.  Your tipover guards are the next highest attaching point, and one that is very convenient to boot, and easy to route wiring to.  THIS is why a few of us keep asking for a higher mount.

I do recognize that with the angled guard support, you will probably need to lower the lower mounting hole a bit in order to clear the angled tube.  I'm thinking that the now unutilized mounting hole on the bottom should be sufficiently clear for this, although without having the guards in hand, I can neither confirm or deny this for certain.

I also don't see where any additional welds would be needed for a longer guard.  It's just a longer center section on the guard, with the same bends as before.

I'm just trying to make clear why there are those of us that want to see the top of the front guard as close as possible to the top of the vent.  It's your product, of course, I'm just trying to suggest how to make it a little more appealing to the customer.

There is another option to clear the engine mounting bolt on the left.  I'll have to look at the right side again to see what you are talking about r.e. the different situation on the right, but essentially you can notch the bracket tab to clear the engine mount bolt head.  More work, admittedly, but not hard to do with a torch, angle grinder, or even a drill bit that is a little larger than the engine mount bolt head, if the tab bracket is placed in a vise, and then the hole is drilled in the appropriate place.  The hole may extend slightly into the pipe depending on how thick the bracket tab is.  Any 'notch' in the pipe due to the protruding engine bolt head would be almost completely invisible to anyone inspecting the pipe, due to it's location inside the fairing scoop.  And, I am reasonably certain that the weld around the rest of the pipe/bracket tab would still be strong enough to hold the guard in place, depending on the strength of the guard tab metal.  See attached image.

Your call, though.  If most people like the guard as is, then it's a non issue.  If more people want to see the upper mount placed higher, though, that should be something to consider r.e. marketability and utility of the product.

I suppose a customer could mount the driving lights on pogo sticks instead of directly to the guard, but that might look silly...

Also, you could market two versions of the product, so that those who are willing to pay extra can purchase the taller option.  Admittedly, your market for this product is not that big to begin with, of course. 

I've noted that a good number of  the 'usual suspects', whom likely have Murphs' bars currently, have not commented so far.
I apologize, I didn't realize the mounting of fog lights as opposed to drivings lights differed in that fashion because I've personally never had the need for additional lighting but I respect that there are people out there that do require it. It seems as though most people really like the looks of the guards as is and I don't think the additional cost of lengthening that outer bar (or creating its required bracket, more accurately) is worth the extra few inches of height for the driving lights because lights mounted towards the top of the current guard will already be close to 2 feet off the ground (a solid 8 or so inches above the 14" minimum you mentioned for driving lights and already approaching the 30" maximum).

The additional cost wouldn't come from lengthening the bar itself as much as it would the extra labor involved in creating that additional exterior bracket you've come up with to allow the guard to mount over that upper mounting point, if I understand your design concept correctly. Due to our current price point most likely being on the upper end of what most would be willing to spend, I think the additional cost would deter more customers than the additional height would attract. I do appreciate the time you've taken to suggest these changes but this is just one of those "big-picture" decisions that need to be made.

I think making two different sets might be more trouble that it's worth just because, as you've mentioned, the market for such a product is already somewhat slim. I honestly believe the vast majority will be happy with the product we currently have designed, especially if we can keep the cost down as much as possible. Again, I really appreciate the time and effort you've put into making these suggestions and I have taken them to heart but there are a lot of factors I'm trying to keep in mind while doing my best to please the majority, which is never easy.

Maybe because we like how this is progressing without our input?   ;D  The few concerns I've had have been addressed by others comments, so far.  The easy removal is the HUGE attraction for me thus far.

The only issue I'm seeing is that I have LARGE LED driving lights.  (4" or so)  And I don't see how I could mount them without an extremely long bracket off the front of the bars, which would probably make the lights shake a lot.  But I'd probably solve that by putting smaller LED driving lights on. 

The other concern I have is with adding highway pegs.  With how much closer these bars are to the fairing, it doesn't look like highway pegs would be comfortable.  (At least not for me.)  Maybe bolt a set on (or tack weld a couple of mockups) and have someone sit on the bike and see if they work.  Looks to me like the rider's legs would have to almost bend around the fairing to make highway pegs useful.

My other concern, though, is still with the frame/engine shimming.  If the bracket that goes to the top engine bolt doesn't allow for this, it might cause fitment issues on some bikes and be fine on others.  My bike needed a washer between the frame and the engine mount on the left side.  (Without that shim, I was consistently breaking an upper engine mount bolt at least once a year.)  If the "U" section of the upper mounts allowed space for this shim (on both sides) folks that need the shim could easily put it in place on whichever side they needed.  Those that don't need the shim could easily put a washer in just inside the outer portion of the "U", between the spacer that you are providing and the bracket.
I'm glad you're liking the quick-removal feature we've come up with! I was worried that the people clamoring for an actual "quick-release" design (where one section of the bar is milled and slides into another section and is held in place with a smaller bolt) would not be pleased with anything less but it seems as though a big majority of the people really like what we've come up with.

I'm not sure what shape your lights are but perhaps you can mount them to the vertical bar sticking outward instead of up? Although, by looking at the guard, I'm sure you've considered that. However, if you can find the right clamp perhaps there's a way you can get them to work otherwise your only option may be to purchase smaller LED lights, as you mentioned.

I do agree that the guards appear a bit close in for highway pegs but it's difficult to tell for sure until we have a chance to clamp up a set and have someone sit on the bike. We'll probably be testing this out within the next few days so I'll be sure to get some pictures for you guys when we do. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that people will be able to comfortably use highway pegs with this guard because more people than I initially thought add them to our Canyon Cages and it's a pretty big selling point.

We have indeed taken that engine/frame shimming into account and there is sufficient space for those that need it. The bike we used to design the part had this shim in place and we designed the bracket so it would accommodate it. The people who do not currently require that shim piece merely need to insert a small washer when installing the upper bracket. Easy peasy!

Ryan, I had one more thought, r.e. the design of the rear bar.

Currently, there is the straight piece that is welded between the upper and lower part of the bar.  In a fall, if the rear bar should end up bending upwards, all that straight piece will likely do is keep the distance between the parts the same, but I don't think it will completely stop an upward bend from happening if sufficient force is applied.

SOOOO, I'm thinking that if this support bar was angled, from the lower outside to the upper inside of the bar, instead of being directly vertical, it might provide much more resistance against such a bend.

Admittedly, the only time I can see this being an issue is in a slide, but a 45 degree inward angle shouldn't be that hard to accomplish.  Not a big deal, but if we are adding diagonal bars already to reinforce the front bars, complementing the angle on the rear bar might look more stylish, and add strength to boot.


On that note, I've said more than enough r.e. the height of the front bar.  While I'm sure others will want to make their preferences known on this issue (i.e. would you pay more for a taller front bar, or is a lower cost more important?), I've said more than enough, and I'll leave well enough alone for now.  I very much do like the 'bones'of the front mounts behind the fairing, those look very strong to me, and I think Ryan and his team have done an excellent job in making those two attachment points quite beefy.

If the donor bike already has the 1.5 MM washer on the front left motor mount (Ryan mentioned that it did), no doubt Ryan and his team have already provided enough space for a shim.  I'd again recommend doing the same on the right side, in case anyone has a frame that is tweaked the other way, and also providing two 1.5 MM washers with the kit, to be located either as a shim or as a spacer at the end between the 'U' as Jon described it and the engine mount.  Either way the gap ends up getting filled.
The reason we have that support bar between the upper and lower bar of the horseshoe straight is because it looked a bit better that way than angled in (we actually tried going that route on a previous bike) and angling the bar in has surprisingly little effect on how that guard handles applied force. The main part of the rear guard that determines how strong it is the smooth radius of the outer edge and the brackets where it mounts to the bike. This is actually why we beefed up the upper mounting bracket from what we initially designed. The first bracket design was a little weak for our liking so we changed the design a bit and decided to use slightly thicker material. The rear guards we designed for the 2013 FJR1300 utilize very similar design concepts and out of the hundreds we've sold, we've heard nothing but good things about their performance. However, now that you mention it, an inward-angled bar might match a bit better with the support bar we added to the front guard. I'll see what we can do about mocking up a set so we can see how it looks when paired with the front guard.

Regarding the bracket for the right side, we have indeed also made room on that side to accommodate the shim should customers have that shim in place. So, regardless of what side the shim is on (or if there's no shim at all) these guards will still mount up just fine. Additionally, we'll be including a few washers so those that don't already have the shims can still mount up the brackets without having any gaps.
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Offline nosaint7

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2013, 09:29:08 AM »
Like it - Keep us informed as to progress, prices and 1st production run date.  Got a budget to work this into...
current: 2003 C10
past: Yamaha Vstar, Yamaha XS750, Suzuki T500, BSA 650 Lightning (yup - I'm OLD!)

Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2013, 10:32:46 AM »
Like it - Keep us informed as to progress, prices and 1st production run date.  Got a budget to work this into...

As soon as I get any new information, I'll be sure to post it here for you guys to keep you as up-to-date as possible.
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Offline Jwh360

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2013, 06:43:45 PM »
We need an update!!   :popcorn:
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Offline tweeter55

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2013, 07:18:52 PM »
+1  :chugbeer: :popcorn:
Over the years:       1972 Harley Rapido
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Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2013, 08:53:57 AM »
I'll have an update for you guys VERY soon! We got an enormous flood of other orders so we've been a bit backed up as of late. We should be receiving a few sets of finished guards from our powder coaters within the next day or two at which point we have a gentleman loaning us TWO C10s in order to get some photos of the final product installed as well as do some legit drop testing. There's a local guy around here who has 3 C10s, one of which is a parts bike that's pretty beat up. He mentioned that we're more than welcome to install the guards and do some legit drop testing so once we get the bars back, we'll be working on that. I'll be sure to shoot a bunch of photos as well as a video of the drop testing and post it here once it's ready! Stay tuned!
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Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2014, 12:34:40 PM »
Hey everyone! I apologize for the lengthy delay in getting these accessories available. We were closed down over Christmas/New Years and shortly after, there was a family tragedy that required much of my attention over the last few weeks. Anyway, I'm back and we're cranking on getting these guards finished. We finally got the prototypes back from our powder coaters and they really look killer. Check out the photos and let me know what you guys think. Once we get our professional photos finished, we're going to try and get the guards installed on an older C10 used for parts so we can do some legit drop testing. Also, we'll most likely be starting the Group Buy later on this week once everyone has a chance to check out the photos of the finished guards.

Here they are!













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Offline tweeter55

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2014, 01:09:08 PM »
 :popcorn: :chugbeer: :popcorn: :chugbeer:
Looks good so far. Will be anticipating drop test results. Video, I assume?
Over the years:       1972 Harley Rapido
1972 Suzuki T350R  1979 BMW R100RT
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Offline RyanMCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2014, 02:00:58 PM »
:popcorn: :chugbeer: :popcorn: :chugbeer:
Looks good so far. Will be anticipating drop test results. Video, I assume?

I'm definitely going to try and get a decent quality video of the tests for you guys! We'll absolutely take some photos but I'm hoping I can throw a quick video together as well.
MC Enterprises has been manufacturing quality motorcycle products for nearly 45 years! Visit us online at www.MCEnterprises.com!