Author Topic: Range function accuracy  (Read 6647 times)

Offline Rhino

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Range function accuracy
« on: August 12, 2013, 10:18:58 AM »
I installed Brian's low fuel warning eliminator last week. I can actually use the range function now when it is actually needed (thank you Brian!). It's a great concept. Anyway I decided to test it this weekend in a controlled setting. Unfortunately the bike ran out of gas when it said I still had 24 miles range. Disappointing but good to know. I was on ECO fuel map and taking it easy to stretch the range. It was also good to find out the bike doesn't just die. The engine starts missing and surging for a few minutes before total loss of power. I got it to the top of a hill, put it in neutral and coasted down the hill to a gas station. By the time I got to the gas station the engine was not running.  It took 5.75 gallons in up to the bottom of the filler neck with the bike on the side stand.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 11:26:18 AM »
Wow, that is really too far off to be useful and it would seem to me that something is miss-adjusted / broken. Nothing that is w/in your control of course, and nothing any owner could cause but still, something must be off by a significant amount to cause that. The only thing I can think of that could cause this would be a miss calibrated fuel level sensor that is reporting more fuel in the tank than there really is; it would be pretty easy to check that by watching the mileage vs. fuel gauge changes through a tank of fuel.

The bike calculates the remaining mileage in real time so depending on how badly the fuel is sloshing back and forth, and how much the actual current fuel usage is changing, there will be an error of some amount at all times in the reported range. Even so, it should not be that great unless you are drag racing up and down mountainsides. And under those conditions, it would vary a lot in the range it reported between screen refreshes; did the range distance change a LOT before you ran out of fuel?

If it is an [out of adjustment] fuel gauge (nothing to do with the low fuel warning system, the fuel level detector is completely independent from the low fuel warning assembly on the bike), it might be covered under warranty. The low fuel warning eliminator does not interact in any way with the fuel gauge or any part of it so that did not and cannot cause any difficulty or misreading of the fuel gauge. I would be happy to work with you to find the underlying cause of this situation both because of customer satisfaction of course but also because I am curious as to what is going on with what you had happen; I cannot think of a case or condition which would cause such a discrepancy in the reported fuel remaining vs the actual fuel remaining.

At any rate, I will send you my contact info. so we may discuss this and hopefully resolve this at your convenience. And of course please feel free to send the circuit back for a full refund if you want to. There will always be some error between reported range and real range but certainly not 24 statue miles without significant other factors at play (a wildly bouncing range report where the 24 was merely a peak in an otherwise near- zero average, etc. or a defective component in the fuel level sensing system, etc.).

Brian

I installed Brian's low fuel warning eliminator last week. I can actually use the range function now when it is actually needed (thank you Brian!). It's a great concept. Anyway I decided to test it this weekend in a controlled setting. Unfortunately the bike ran out of gas when it said I still had 24 miles range. Disappointing but good to know. I was on ECO fuel map and taking it easy to stretch the range. It was also good to find out the bike doesn't just die. The engine starts missing and surging for a few minutes before total loss of power. I got it to the top of a hill, put it in neutral and coasted down the hill to a gas station. By the time I got to the gas station the engine was not running.  It took 5.75 gallons in up to the bottom of the filler neck with the bike on the side stand.
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KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline sf bay rider

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 12:11:17 PM »
Well said, but I will stick with the low tech gas gauge and idiot light system. Refueling about 1/2 full. It does two things.  One you'll have adequate fuel for travel. Two, adequate rest and rehydration periods, too. Given that we are a safety conscious forum. Speaking  for myself only. IMHO  8)

More as things develop.

Jack
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 12:47:14 PM »
The low fuel warning eliminator does not affect the fuel gauge in any way, shape or form. The fuel gauge functions as it always did. They are two separate and isolated devices, and the warning eliminator does not intrude on the fuel level / fuel gauge system. It still works with the vertical scale of LCD blocks displaying fuel level as it always did.

So again, if you are happy with the bike the way it is, by all means you do not need to buy / add / modify anything at all, including anything I sell. I just want to clear up that mistaken idea (it is turning into an urban legend just like most things KiPass) that any products I sell change the way the fuel system works OTHER than to eliminate the actual warning displayed on the LCD panel.

Everything I produce for a C-14 is because it has eliminated a problem, potential problem or annoyance for me in the use of the bike. But nothing that does or even can detract from the normal function of the bike. That is why, for example, the KiPass bypass is made of such heavy wire, is fully waterproof and uses a fuse instead of a switch: simply because when not being used, these components have the absolute least chance of failure of any available that I am aware of. A fuse used as a switch simply will not fail is ignored for centuries while a normally closed switch may corrode or lose spring tension over time; the fuse is not used to save money and in fact costs me more to use as part of that product than a switch would.

Brian

Well said, but I will stick with the low tech gas gauge and idiot light system. Refueling about 1/2 full. It does two things.  One you'll have adequate fuel for travel. Two, adequate rest and rehydration periods, too. Given that we are a safety conscious forum. Speaking  for myself only. IMHO  8)

More as things develop.

Jack
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Offline sf bay rider

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 02:34:48 PM »
Brian,

I'm not in the least being a critic of your device. I'm just stated I prefer the low tech route.
This approach has never failed me, yet. No offense meant by that, Mate.

Jack
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Offline stevewfl

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 02:41:33 PM »
Seriously, do you think anything on a Kawi is "accurate"?  What made you suspect the range would/should be accurate?

I have 4 Kawasaki's in my garage.  None have anything accurate. On my C14 the fuel gauge, speedometer, and tire pressure sensor gauges are not even "close" to reality  ;D

Makes me wonder if the site  lines on my bikes are actually in the correct place on the oil check glass!
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 02:54:15 PM »
No problem, and absolutely no offense taken.

I merely want to address the idea that the low fuel warning eliminator does not interfere with fuel gauge operation. The bike remains as 'low tech' as it used to be, now even more as the flashing display.... well, won't flash. :-)

When I read your post in this thread, it conveyed the idea to me that you thought the product in some way changed how the bike acts regarding fuel quantity display; someone else had mentioned on the other forum that he liked the removal of the low fuel warning but in the end preferred to use the fuel gauge. These ideas are simply incorrect and I want to address them. Again, no offense taken and in fact I would not take offense if you thought a product of mine was terrible. But I do want to stop the idea from spreading that the low fuel warning eliminator in any changes the fuel gauge function, accuracy or operation because it does not.

So in the end, I want my products to be like KiPass- If they are hated, it is due to the real negative attributes, not because of false beliefs such as they cause the street lights to come on earlier and therefore contribute to global warming....  ;D

Brian

Brian,

I'm not in the least being a critic of your device. I'm just stated I prefer the low tech route.
No offense with meant by that

Jack
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 02:58:26 PM »
Well, so far the range indicators seem to be pretty accurate overall. In fact one enterprising gentleman actually got his range function to indicate 5 miles left and the bike still did not run out of fuel (that is further than I have gone and further than I will probably ever go). There is of course some inaccuracy in the range remaining display because it is a calculated amount, not an absolute, but the bike should absolutely not run out of fuel with the range indicator indicating more than 20 miles remaining.

As far as your other problems with Kawasaki accuracy, I don't really know what to say but can ask Kirby for his take on it if you want.  ;)

Brian

Seriously, do you think anything on a Kawi is "accurate"?  What made you suspect the range would/should be accurate?

I have 4 Kawasaki's in my garage.  None have anything accurate. On my C14 the fuel gauge, speedometer, and tire pressure sensor gauges are not even "close" to reality  ;D

Makes me wonder if the site  lines on my bikes are actually in the correct place on the oil check glass!
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gPink

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 03:00:06 PM »
Seriously, do you think anything on a Kawi is "accurate"?  What made you suspect the range would/should be accurate?

I have 4 Kawasaki's in my garage.  None have anything accurate. On my C14 the fuel gauge, speedometer, and tire pressure sensor gauges are not even "close" to reality  ;D
Makes me wonder if the site  lines on my bikes are actually in the correct place on the oil check glass!
Sounds like a kipass failure to me.

Offline gPink

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2013, 03:04:03 PM »
Two things I'm curious of, if you were not going uphill would you have gotten more of those 24 miles? and if you were not in eco mode if the number would have changed?


Offline stevewfl

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 03:24:40 PM »
Sounds like a kipass failure to me.
Can I humbly disagree on this one topic? The scope of KiPass has been to avoid the bike breaking and me from ever walking as the result.  Kawi design engineers couldn't do any better with the speedo, tire pressure sensors, gas gauge, and the original posters "range" experience  :D

Mad pow-ah of KiPass has lasted me over 79,000 miles, if my bike breaks tomorrow I'll smile its been so good. Can't argue the reliability of these bikes, but they have zero "finesse"

On side note, I suspect if I change to a fresh FOB battery my bike displays be a little more accurate =)
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 04:29:18 PM »
And of course please feel free to send the circuit back for a full refund if you want to.

Nope, don't want a refund. I'm happy just getting rid of the extremely annoying low fuel warning. I rarely ride into what would be reserve on most bikes. But on those occasions I am well aware that I'm low on fuel and typically I know a gas station is not far away and I don't want that flashing low fuel warning EVER! Being able to use the range function was just icing on the cake. But yes will be happy to work with you on trying to understand why it is so off.

Offline maxtog

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 04:47:10 PM »
Seriously, do you think anything on a Kawi is "accurate"?  What made you suspect the range would/should be accurate?

I have 4 Kawasaki's in my garage.  None have anything accurate. On my C14 the fuel gauge, speedometer, and tire pressure sensor gauges are not even "close" to reality  ;D

Makes me wonder if the site  lines on my bikes are actually in the correct place on the oil check glass!

Hmm.  I have found that most everything is reasonably accurate on the C14.  No vehicle I have EVER had, regardless of type or brand had an accurate speedometer or fuel meter.  The C14 is on the closer of those I have used.  Save with odometer.  Tire pressure is within 1psi or so.

Range meter is a bit on the wild site, but it is a total guess because riding style and conditions change constantly.   Again, same I have seen with any vehicle with a range meter.  And I suspect the reason Kawasaki disables the range meter when fuel alarm is triggered is exactly because it can't be all that accurate (especially with one sample/glance) and people will assume it is and then promptly get stranded.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 05:21:38 PM »
I'm thinking the battery should be replaced...  All this bike's evils come from the battery(s).
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 06:27:55 PM »
OK, and thanks for the kind words, but it is still up to you.

I just got off the phone with Rhino and there might be an odd circumstance that allowed this problem to surface. Both he and I will be doing some testing to see how the range function reacts to shutting the ignition off once the bike is at a very low range remaining; it is possible that the minimum range 'resets' to something like one gallon of fuel even if there is less in the tank. My suggestion to anyone who uses one of these things (my low fuel warning eliminators) would be that if you are low in range, say below 50 miles, and shut the ignition off and turn it back on, the range indicator may be inaccurate until the bike is refilled with fuel. In other words, the range function may only be accurate if the last gallon or so of the fuel tank is used in one stretch without the bike being powered off. The entire fuel tank can of course still be used, it is just that the range indicator may become inaccurate if the ECU is powered down with very little remaining fuel in the bike. Special circumstances here that I never suspected might happen; Kawasaki does not have this consideration of course because they do not show the remaining range once the 'low fuel level' is reached but after outsmarting that (or did it outsmart me?), there might be a potential for inaccuracy. Again, none of this applies unless the ignition is turned off with little fuel remaining and possibly not even them. I will report back in this thread when I find out what exactly is going on.

Brian


Nope, don't want a refund. I'm happy just getting rid of the extremely annoying low fuel warning. I rarely ride into what would be reserve on most bikes. But on those occasions I am well aware that I'm low on fuel and typically I know a gas station is not far away and I don't want that flashing low fuel warning EVER! Being able to use the range function was just icing on the cake. But yes will be happy to work with you on trying to understand why it is so off.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Shoe

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 06:44:34 PM »
  :)

The gear indicator and clock seem to be accurate.  ;D
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 09:10:35 PM »
  :)

The gear indicator and clock seem to be accurate.  ;D

Well that depends...  I have had the gear indicator be "blank" several times, I suppose due to a "not completely in gear" situation.

And the clock becomes grossly inaccurate twice a year due to this persistently stupid and insane practice of f***ing with the time that people in this country insist on doing.  (Would you like to know how I really feel about it?)
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Offline martin_14

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2013, 12:50:27 AM »
Well that depends...  I have had the gear indicator be "blank" several times, I suppose due to a "not completely in gear" situation.

And the clock becomes grossly inaccurate twice a year due to this persistently stupid and insane practice of f***ing with the time that people in this country insist on doing.  (Would you like to know how I really feel about it?)

yeah, Max, tell us...
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2013, 04:04:40 AM »
I agree with Max.  My gear indicator is going in all sorts of directions other than the gear it's supposed to be in (sensor needs to be replaced but it isn't quite bad enough to take in) and the clock has either been too fast or too slow.  I can't remember this early in the morning. 
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Range function accuracy
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2013, 04:58:12 AM »
Well that depends...  I have had the gear indicator be "blank" several times, I suppose due to a "not completely in gear" situation.

Mine has done the same thing. It seems that the few times that this has happened was when I downshifted into first after I was already stopped.
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