Author Topic: What size oil filter socket?  (Read 9226 times)

Offline TJ

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What size oil filter socket?
« on: July 23, 2013, 11:49:36 AM »
Title says it all, what size socket fits the Kawasaki OEM filter?
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Offline RBX QB

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 12:23:26 PM »
You mean drain plug? 17mm. My OEM filter didn't have a socket. Had to use a small filter wrench to pull it.

My aftermarket filters (K&N) have a socket. That's 17mm, too.
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Offline tjpgi

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 12:36:50 PM »
Title says it all, what size socket fits the Kawasaki OEM filter?

If you mean an oil filter wrench I use cup style 65mm/14 flutes from AmPro. Works like a charm and I torque the filter per specifications from Kaw and have not had any issues in 5 years. Don't buy a wrench that will adjust or fits 65mm-67mm, too loose. Obtain a 65mm with 14 flutes if this is what you needed to know about.
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Offline TJ

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 01:28:24 PM »
Thanks, 65 it is.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 10:47:34 AM »
....and I torque the filter per specifications from Kaw and have not had any issues in 5 years.....

uh....
DO NOT TORQUE THE FILTER TO 14 FT/LBS

jus' making a comment here.... you do what you want. ::)

and if by chance it is torqued to spec from the factory...here's a tip
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=12651.msg154778;topicseen#msg154778

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Offline tjpgi

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 01:32:29 PM »
uh....
DO NOT TORQUE THE FILTER TO 14 FT/LBS

jus' making a comment here.... you do what you want. ::)

and if by chance it is torqued to spec from the factory...here's a tip
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=12651.msg154778;topicseen#msg154778

My GSXR 1000 calls for 14.5 ft-lbs on its oil filter. With both bikes I have never had a problem removing the filters after being torqued to specs using the above oil filter wrench, but like you say "you do what you want..." 8)
2011 GSXR 1000
2009 Concours ABS
1976 KZ900
1991 Sportster XLH 1200

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 04:19:34 PM »
hand tight is all you need.
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Offline tjpgi

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 07:45:10 AM »
hand tight is all you need.

Perhaps

But one must wonder why the designers and engineers of 2 different manufacturers ( Kaw,Suzuki) of high performance motorcycles have virtually the same recommendations for torquing their oil filters. It seems that other manufacturers also recommend torquing the oil filter from several different countries:

Ducati Multistrada 1200 / MTS1200- 8ft/lbs.
Some Honda motorcycles- 19-20 ft/lbs.
BMW- 8 ft/lbs.

So it seems many motorcycle manufacturers recommend torquing their oil filters. Perhaps their reasoning is based on higher oil pressure or if any leaking occurs during operation of the bike, oil getting on the rear tire may possibly be disastrous. Hand tightening oil filters on trucks and cars seems to be the norm by the respective manufacturers but not on motorcycles. I think a blanket recommendation to hand tighten an oil filter on motorcycles that contradicts the manufacturers recommendations is inviting some problems.
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Offline jonathan

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2013, 08:12:54 AM »
The problem with hand tightening is that some people have bigger hands than others and greater upper body strength. By specifiying a torque value the manufacturers can ensure some consistency.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 08:31:41 AM »
Manufacturers have to give us a quantifiable and repeatable target. They cannot recommend 'hand tight' because that is all over the place depending on the person, the grip and how slippery the surface is.

As far as how tight- isn't it interesting that the spec.'s you give vary by more than 200%? One has to think that one end of that spectrum must be a little.... too much or too little. Unless of course the tightness of the oil filter really is not critical and it will work over a vast range. <insert wry smile here>

And finally, I wonder where all those torque figures came from. A careful study of the max. oil pressure of each bike, combined with the side area of each seal, and that seal's durometer? Also, the friction of the oil filter threads which directly affects the amount of force being put on the filter's seal? Or did they 1) use the previous guy's number (my personal bet) or 2) ask the oil filter manufacturer for his / her guess (less likely) or 3) look at what the other bikes recommend (a good possibility).

The fact is that an oil filter has to be pretty loose to actually leak if a good seal is in place, the mating surface of the filter mount is undamaged and everything was clean when it was put together. On the other side of the coin, you can tighten them until they cry uncle and still nothing bad will happen that way either other than getting it off at the next filter change will be a challenge. I always put my filters on using my right (dominant) hand and a rubber glove (easy boys!) which gives me a lot of grip. I tighten it as much as I reasonably can and this method has never failed. Nothing wrong with using a torque wrench and setting a specific torque either but I would stay to the lower side of the numbers you posted (8 ft. lb. rather than 20 ft. lb.).

Finally, I would not put too much faith in designers and engineers having set standards that are meaningful, correct or even based on any logical thinking; I have been around the block a few times and have seen far more bad guesses than good decisions made on all manner of things. Most specifications come out of a manufacturer's catalog, you run your thumb down the column until you find a number bigger than what you think you need. Other spec's come out of thin air. Some are carefully calculated, verified through empirical testing and monitored once in use in the field. I suspect oil filter torque comes from the first two categories.

Brian

Perhaps

But one must wonder why the designers and engineers of 2 different manufacturers ( Kaw,Suzuki) of high performance motorcycles have virtually the same recommendations for torquing their oil filters. It seems that other manufacturers also recommend torquing the oil filter from several different countries:

Ducati Multistrada 1200 / MTS1200- 8ft/lbs.
Some Honda motorcycles- 19-20 ft/lbs.
BMW- 8 ft/lbs.

So it seems many motorcycle manufacturers recommend torquing their oil filters. Perhaps their reasoning is based on higher oil pressure or if any leaking occurs during operation of the bike, oil getting on the rear tire may possibly be disastrous. Hand tightening oil filters on trucks and cars seems to be the norm by the respective manufacturers but not on motorcycles. I think a blanket recommendation to hand tighten an oil filter on motorcycles that contradicts the manufacturers recommendations is inviting some problems.
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Offline TJ

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 08:35:25 AM »
Cars, trucks, or bikes.............I install the filter hand tight and give it a quarter turn more with a wrench and call it good. Never had one leak in over 40 years. No need to over complicate things.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 09:19:51 AM »
Cars, trucks, or bikes.............I install the filter hand tight and give it a quarter turn more with a wrench and call it good. Never had one leak in over 40 years. No need to over complicate things.

Say what?

"No need to over complicate things."

Dude! That's what we live for here!!!    ;)
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 10:23:23 AM »
Cars, trucks, or bikes.............I install the filter hand tight and give it a quarter turn more with a wrench and call it good. Never had one leak in over 40 years. No need to over complicate things.

+1 no leaks.....ever.
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Offline tjpgi

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2013, 02:02:46 PM »
Just saying...there must be somethin' to torquing OF, if so many manufacturers specify it...cheers! :chugbeer:
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Offline maxtog

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2013, 04:03:06 PM »
Say what?

"No need to over complicate things."

Dude! That's what we live for here!!!    ;)

Yeah, really.

I tend to make anything and everything complicated...
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Offline Tim

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2013, 04:34:27 PM »
I too tighten oil filters to hand tight. I wonder just who has a torque wrench that will do 14 ft. pounds.
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Offline tjpgi

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2013, 04:50:33 PM »
Manufacturers have to give us a quantifiable and repeatable target. They cannot recommend 'hand tight' because that is all over the place depending on the person, the grip and how slippery the surface is.

As far as how tight- isn't it interesting that the spec.'s you give vary by more than 200%? One has to think that one end of that spectrum must be a little.... too much or too little. Unless of course the tightness of the oil filter really is not critical and it will work over a vast range. <insert wry smile here>

And finally, I wonder where all those torque figures came from. A careful study of the max. oil pressure of each bike, combined with the side area of each seal, and that seal's durometer? Also, the friction of the oil filter threads which directly affects the amount of force being put on the filter's seal? Or did they 1) use the previous guy's number (my personal bet) or 2) ask the oil filter manufacturer for his / her guess (less likely) or 3) look at what the other bikes recommend (a good possibility).

The fact is that an oil filter has to be pretty loose to actually leak if a good seal is in place, the mating surface of the filter mount is undamaged and everything was clean when it was put together. On the other side of the coin, you can tighten them until they cry uncle and still nothing bad will happen that way either other than getting it off at the next filter change will be a challenge. I always put my filters on using my right (dominant) hand and a rubber glove (easy boys!) which gives me a lot of grip. I tighten it as much as I reasonably can and this method has never failed. Nothing wrong with using a torque wrench and setting a specific torque either but I would stay to the lower side of the numbers you posted (8 ft. lb. rather than 20 ft. lb.).

Finally, I would not put too much faith in designers and engineers having set standards that are meaningful, correct or even based on any logical thinking; I have been around the block a few times and have seen far more bad guesses than good decisions made on all manner of things. Most specifications come out of a manufacturer's catalog, you run your thumb down the column until you find a number bigger than what you think you need. Other spec's come out of thin air. Some are carefully calculated, verified through empirical testing and monitored once in use in the field. I suspect oil filter torque comes from the first two categories.

Brian

I guess I am the Lone Ranger here but since you love your bike ( Happy Anniversary) and most of us do too, these same engineers and designers must be doing something right. "Whatever works for you" is the best conclusion to reach with this thread I believe. But it seems unusual that designers from at least 3 different countries, Japan, Italy, and Germany all have recommendations about torquing the OF. What we all share here in this forum is basically "anecdotal evidence" for recommendations many times based on our own experience which of course can be quite practical and entertaining at the same time.

Tim I use an inch/lb. torque wrench and convert 14ft/lbs. to 168 inch/lbs.
2011 GSXR 1000
2009 Concours ABS
1976 KZ900
1991 Sportster XLH 1200

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2013, 06:10:55 PM »
I think you missed my point entirely: the manufacturer HAS to specify some quantifiable amount of torque for virtually everything that uses torque on the product. That does not make it correct, practical or necessary but again, no mfg. can say things like 'tighten sufficiently'. Further, they have to come up with some spec. for their own internal (easy boys!) assembly procedures. Any other method would be chaos.

I am not opposed to torquing an oil filter with a torque wrench, nor do I say it is a bad idea. I simply pointed out that the exact torque specified was at best a 'best windage guess' and a number slurped out of thin air at worst.

The only thing I would be opposed to would be excessive worry about something like this. After all, we all have KiPass to keep our terror levels high enough so we do not need to worry about oil filter torque IMO.

I have spent all of my adult life in manufacturing and have had the pleasure of designing many things, both consumer and industrial. I have also had the pleasure of working with and supervising many different people, some truly talented, a very few gifted and virtually everyone who did what needed doing that day, be the level of engineering available sufficient to the task or not. So my belief is that it is more likely that Gunther Wang, the new guy fresh out of school and now working under Jinko Bingdang, who is not paying any attention to Gunther as long as Gunther has not set the building on fire (and maybe not even then), got the job of spec'ing parts of and designing parts of the new fangled C-14 they had to introduce next year. Gunther played a game of pong, looked out the window for a while, smiled foolishly while looking around not quite believing they were actually paying him to do this, and then carefully wrote the specification for tightening the oil filter by copying what Judhow Pingtang had written down for the ZZR 1200 five years before, rather than actually checking on the durometer of the seal, calculating the crush area, noting the pitch of the threads, applying a thread friction factor, and then calculating a 'correct' torque to apply to said filter to generate the 'correct' seal pressure. A similar thing went on in Germany although the Germans took it much more seriously, worried about it, and then used the same number as Mercedes does for their oil filters.

If you doubt any of this, and some of it might be made up, find the tolerance for the torque on the oil filter <chuckle>. What is the torque range? Have you calibrated your torque wrench, and even if you did how would you know it met Kawasaki's stringent but undefined specifications for tolerance? <chuckle twice> So by all means, torque your oil filters to the factory specified number. I am not claiming it is wrong, only 'over the top' regarding effort for absolutely no return. Unless you are a gorilla or Mary Jane Tinklepants, winding that bad boy on there as tight as you can without crushing the filter can will be close enough, save wear and tear on your torque wrench and allow you time to drink one more beer for the day. Now that is a win- win situation IMO.

And if you save enough time, read up on why Air France Flight 447 crashed into the Atlantic: I can give you the short version- the three pilots flying the aircraft 1) did not realize what was happening (!) and 2) apparently could not fly the plane. All those years of collective training, skillfully executed by intelligent, cognizant people and they could not keep a perfectly good plane in the sky due to ineptitude. I remain unimpressed and wary of anything Kawasaki (or anyone else) puts in a service manual and absolutely do not defer to 'them' as being more able to correctly install an oil filter than I am.

Brian (carefully checking each lettter in this post for accccuracy because I have beeeen trained in Englisio and it is unlikiliy I wood make any misteaks)

I guess I am the Lone Ranger here but since you love your bike ( Happy Anniversary) and most of us do too, these same engineers and designers must be doing something right. "Whatever works for you" is the best conclusion to reach with this thread I believe. But it seems unusual that designers from at least 3 different countries, Japan, Italy, and Germany all have recommendations about torquing the OF. What we all share here in this forum is basically "anecdotal evidence" for recommendations many times based on our own experience which of course can be quite practical and entertaining at the same time.

Tim I use an inch/lb. torque wrench and convert 14ft/lbs. to 168 inch/lbs.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline tjpgi

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 08:43:39 PM »
I think you missed my point entirely: the manufacturer HAS to specify some quantifiable amount of torque for virtually everything that uses torque on the product. That does not make it correct, practical or necessary but again, no mfg. can say things like 'tighten sufficiently'. Further, they have to come up with some spec. for their own internal (easy boys!) assembly procedures. Any other method would be chaos.

I am not opposed to torquing an oil filter with a torque wrench, nor do I say it is a bad idea. I simply pointed out that the exact torque specified was at best a 'best windage guess' and a number slurped out of thin air at worst.

The only thing I would be opposed to would be excessive worry about something like this. After all, we all have KiPass to keep our terror levels high enough so we do not need to worry about oil filter torque IMO.

I have spent all of my adult life in manufacturing and have had the pleasure of designing many things, both consumer and industrial. I have also had the pleasure of working with and supervising many different people, some truly talented, a very few gifted and virtually everyone who did what needed doing that day, be the level of engineering available sufficient to the task or not. So my belief is that it is more likely that Gunther Wang, the new guy fresh out of school and now working under Jinko Bingdang, who is not paying any attention to Gunther as long as Gunther has not set the building on fire (and maybe not even then), got the job of spec'ing parts of and designing parts of the new fangled C-14 they had to introduce next year. Gunther played a game of pong, looked out the window for a while, smiled foolishly while looking around not quite believing they were actually paying him to do this, and then carefully wrote the specification for tightening the oil filter by copying what Judhow Pingtang had written down for the ZZR 1200 five years before, rather than actually checking on the durometer of the seal, calculating the crush area, noting the pitch of the threads, applying a thread friction factor, and then calculating a 'correct' torque to apply to said filter to generate the 'correct' seal pressure. A similar thing went on in Germany although the Germans took it much more seriously, worried about it, and then used the same number as Mercedes does for their oil filters.

If you doubt any of this, and some of it might be made up, find the tolerance for the torque on the oil filter <chuckle>. What is the torque range? Have you calibrated your torque wrench, and even if you did how would you know it met Kawasaki's stringent but undefined specifications for tolerance? <chuckle twice> So by all means, torque your oil filters to the factory specified number. I am not claiming it is wrong, only 'over the top' regarding effort for absolutely no return. Unless you are a gorilla or Mary Jane Tinklepants, winding that bad boy on there as tight as you can without crushing the filter can will be close enough, save wear and tear on your torque wrench and allow you time to drink one more beer for the day. Now that is a win- win situation IMO.

And if you save enough time, read up on why Air France Flight 447 crashed into the Atlantic: I can give you the short version- the three pilots flying the aircraft 1) did not realize what was happening (!) and 2) apparently could not fly the plane. All those years of collective training, skillfully executed by intelligent, cognizant people and they could not keep a perfectly good plane in the sky due to ineptitude. I remain unimpressed and wary of anything Kawasaki (or anyone else) puts in a service manual and absolutely do not defer to 'them' as being more able to correctly install an oil filter than I am.

Brian (carefully checking each lettter in this post for accccuracy because I have beeeen trained in Englisio and it is unlikiliy I wood make any misteaks)
:hail: Peace brother :chugbeer:

2011 GSXR 1000
2009 Concours ABS
1976 KZ900
1991 Sportster XLH 1200

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: What size oil filter socket?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2013, 10:01:23 PM »
Thanks, you too.

Brian

:hail: Peace brother :chugbeer:
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com