Guhl's ECU Flash For The Kawasaki Concours 1400 / GTR 1400...Group Buy?

[Rhino]

I've heard pulling the flies causes the traction control to be 'less efficient'. Can anyone quantify how it behaves?

I don't have any personal experience but I remember reading early on 2010 (BC AKA: before crash) someone pulled the flies and said the KTRC is much more abrupt. Without the flies the ECU is interrupting ignition and fuel injection. So I am guessing that it commands closing the secondary's and if the wheel spin does not correct it is then interrupting the spark.

[maxtog]

I've heard pulling the flies causes the traction control to be 'less efficient'. Can anyone quantify how it behaves?

I just posted this in the other thread:

The secondaries are used for traction control, starting/idle, and power control.  By reflashing, it can still do all three- with it mostly changing the power control.  AND the ECU will automatically compensate for the new secondaries map.  AND they tweaked the fuel maps some for better performance.

If you remove the secondaries, you completely lose an important part of the traction control system (although it will still work, just not as effectively nor as smoothly).  Then you also completely lose a part of the starting/idle/warmup system.  And the ECU will *NOT* compensate for the loss of the flies, so I assume the mix will go too lean at points in the map.  And that is dangerous for the engine.  And, finally, it will not tweak the fuel map for better performance.

[pistole]

- the fast idle associated with a cold start is actuated by the primary throttle butterflies, not the secondaries.

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[stewart]

You aren't paying for his time - you are paying for the years of experience he has that enabled him to reach this point.

+1. I accept some discussion on price, its a free world, but you get what you pay for and I was happy paying the asking price for quality product and quality service.

[maxtog]

- the fast idle associated with a cold start is actuated by the primary throttle butterflies, not the secondaries.

If you watch the videos from the other forum site ( http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,28657.0.html ) , you can see that the secondaries open wide up when cold idle and close to almost nothing when the bike gets warm.  I don't exactly understand the logic behind it, but I can't see them doing this without a reason.

Concours 1400 Warm up

[gPink]

Fast idle needs more fuel/air. Secondaries are an obstruction, like a carb butterfly choke. Not conducive to EFI warmup. Mine warms up fine flyless.

[maxtog]

Fast idle needs more fuel/air. Secondaries are an obstruction, like a carb butterfly choke. Not conducive to EFI warmup. Mine warms up fine flyless.

OK.  That makes sense.  So they open them up wide during the fast idle, then snap them shut at low idle, ready for driving away (I guess).   I assume if you try to drive off while fast idle they will still shut as programmed?  (That is the odd part).

[gPink]

Short of visual observation or instrumentation we may never know.

[katata1100]

When you get the ecm back, does it need a few miles to "learn the bike", or does it deliver full power as soon as you get it back and start the bike up?

[stewart]

When you get the ecm back, does it need a few miles to "learn the bike", or does it deliver full power as soon as you get it back and start the bike up?

Results are immediate per the Fly's and updated maps on start up. My basic understanding, our bikes do not have an O2 sensor, so there is no updating of the maps, their static. I think I heard the European bikes do, but I'm not sure To acheive the same result you need a PCV+Autotune, i've read a few articles where racers will flash their bike + install the PCV+Autotune for optimal results.

[katata1100]

Fedex dropped it off 40 minutes ago, i installed and went for a ride.
Impressions-there is life below 4k rpms! Wack the throttle open at 3500rpms and the bike will give a little snap, really move. Tractability is also excellent, you can ride slowly smoothly.
The difference is really pronounced when you flick back and forth from the eco mode. Honestly, I never thought the difference in power was that much different from regular mode and eco mode so I just kept it in eco.
Now, it is pronounced.Twist the throttle at 3500rpm, bike moves. Twist the the throttle at 3500rpms with eco mode and slowly winds up lethargically.
On the freeway, passing is great, rather than down shift, just keep it in 6th and let the torque do the rest.
I'll stick to using eco mode a lot, when traveling, but at least i have reason to switch to regular mode when i have some nice roads to carve up.

[stewart]

Impressions-there is life below 4k rpms!

+1

[jwolffie]

Mine came today

It finally feels like a 1400 now, and ECO mode is my seventh gear now. I used to run ECO in town, not any more.

This was well worth the money!!!!

[maxtog]

It finally feels like a 1400 now, and ECO mode is my seventh gear now.

LOL!  That is a great saying- love it.

[katata1100]

Mine came today

It finally feels like a 1400 now, and ECO mode is my seventh gear now. I used to run ECO in town, not any more.

This was well worth the money!!!!

See, you are like me- eco and regular felt similar so you went with the one that gave the promise of better mpg. Now, I too will probably only use eco for highway driving.
My '91 Katana 1100 used to be my go to bike for city driving simply because it had better low/mid range. Now, the C14 feels like that katana 1100.

[pistole]

Results are immediate per the Fly's and updated maps on start up. My basic understanding, our bikes do not have an O2 sensor, so there is no updating of the maps, their static. I think I heard the European bikes do, but I'm not sure

- hi stewart.

- are you sure that your US bikes have no O2 sensors ? The reason I am asking is not to argue but because in my part of the world (asia) , our bikes comes with a pair of O2 sensors (one on each branch of the 2-1 sections).

- if Guhl's reflash is US bike specific and what you said about your US bikes is correct, then this reflash will not work non-US machines ?

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[gPink]

No O2 sensors on US bikes.

[Rhino]

Fedex dropped it off 40 minutes ago, i installed and went for a ride.
Impressions-there is life below 4k rpms! Wack the throttle open at 3500rpms and the bike will give a little snap, really move. Tractability is also excellent, you can ride slowly smoothly.
The difference is really pronounced when you flick back and forth from the eco mode. Honestly, I never thought the difference in power was that much different from regular mode and eco mode so I just kept it in eco.
Now, it is pronounced.Twist the throttle at 3500rpm, bike moves. Twist the the throttle at 3500rpms with eco mode and slowly winds up lethargically.
On the freeway, passing is great, rather than down shift, just keep it in 6th and let the torque do the rest.
I'll stick to using eco mode a lot, when traveling, but at least i have reason to switch to regular mode when i have some nice roads to carve up.

Exactly! 

[maxtog]

- are you sure that your US bikes have no O2 sensors ? The reason I am asking is not to argue but because in my part of the world (asia) , our bikes comes with a pair of O2 sensors (one on each branch of the 2-1 sections).

- if Guhl's reflash is US bike specific and what you said about your US bikes is correct, then this reflash will not work non-US machines ?

USA C-14's have no O2 sensors.  I am not sure what system is used for the C-14 when it has O2 sensors, but it is most likely going to rely less on maps and more on the data from the sensors (that is the whole point) so I don't think the flash is going to be compatible.

There might be a DIFFERENT flash that would work on the O2 models, adjusting the underlying tables and also the maps for the secondary butterflies are likely the same.  If such as flash exists, I don't know, but have not heard of anything like it.  There would probably be zero chance Guhl would ever develop such a product, though.

[stewart]

- hi stewart.

- are you sure that your US bikes have no O2 sensors ? The reason I am asking is not to argue but because in my part of the world (asia) , our bikes comes with a pair of O2 sensors (one on each branch of the 2-1 sections).

- if Guhl's reflash is US bike specific and what you said about your US bikes is correct, then this reflash will not work non-US machines ?

.

I can confirm we don't have the 02 sensor, I think Asia and European bikes are the only ones which do. Most likely for emission standards and kinda sucks if you ask me.

As for the flash being invalid, I couldn't really say not my area of expertise. But here's what I think and that's just an opinion.

1) The big improvement from the flash is the Secondary Flies opening sooner. I assume this would be the same on both types of bikes. The tweaks to the maps are minor, and if you have the O2 sensor then in theory the bike should take care of that itself. I think.

2) Someone would have to call Don and ask if he saw O2 code in the ECU. Assuming he didn't look, then someone should look up the ECU Part and see if its different on the US bikes vs Asia/Europe. If its a different codebase/flash then it should be a different part to denote it.

3) Assuming its the same....then the big question is.....could Don hack it and enable us to add our own O2 sensor like you do with the Autotune. That would very cool!!!!! But I'm sure that's a pipe dream.

Or someone could ask Fred Harmon on the COG Forum, who's the expert on all this stuff and he probably could call b^!!sh!$ any of this.