New product idea...

[RFH87_Connie]

My wife has had ten knee surgeries on her left knee in the past 10 - 15 years.  A few clean-up or adjustments, a few reconstructions, and two full replacements.  On almost each surgery she has gotten an ice cooler with a 12v motor and a flexible thing to wrap around her knee that has velcro built into it.  They are all exactly the same.  Kind of looks like a blue neoprene sports brace.  I have been eye-balling them for a couple of years now.  I was just thinking of building a pull over vest with one "element" on each side (front and back).  I could then use my same controller (home-made kind of) from the heated jacket liner to give variable speed control to the pump flow.  It would probably need to just run really slow or it would freeze you quickly.  It uses pretty cool couplings (like the one for fuel from the quick release tank).  I would just need to figure out how to connect two of them.  One would be simple - I would just stick it to the inside of my shirt and turn it on.  Maybe just start with one on the chest to see how cold it can get - might be all I need.

The draw backs would be its a 9-pack beer cooler size (if I use theirs) and it requires ice to run.  Maybe being a beer cooler with ice is a plus.

Come on summer.....

[julianop]

Now then, don't you start giving me ideas ;-)

So it needs ice... and there's a 12v motor - which pumps some kind of fluid around the flexible wraps? Is it ice-melt, or a special fluid?

"Pretty cool couplings" what do you mean by that?

Anything else of interest? Details, gimme the details :-)

You don't want a small, cold spot - that could damage your system by super-cooling your skin, or at a minimum make you bilious from uneven core temperature control. The idea is just to carry away the heat the body generates, not to trigger the body to cool itself even more aggressively. More even distribution of a fluid just below body temperature would be far better.

[RFH87_Connie]

It has a pump that is about 2" dia by 5" long with the flexible (and insulated) hoses connected to it.  The hose contains a supply and return.  The pump gets wedged into the cooler (that has a little notch made into the side at the top edge) which then gets ice and water added to it.  I'd guess and say it held 2 gallons.  The lid is put on and locked into place by the handle (like most small coolers do) with the 6' flexible line coming out between the lid and container.  The knee wrap has about a 12" section attached to it.  A part of the coulpler is attached to each end.  They just snap together.  It does have its own flow control twist knob to control the temp.

This is pretty similar to what we have:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BREG-POLAR-CARE-500-COLD-THERAPY-UNIT-NEW-LARGE-PAD-STILL-IN-WRAPS-WORKS-GREAT-/321026869590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abeb14956

Good pictures on the net (scroll thru them):
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=378097&ppid=1122&image=624619612&images=624619554,624619612,624619667,624619714,624619761,624619803,624619872,624619909,624619989,624620071,624620128&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0

[julianop]

Oh I get it now, thanks. The pump simply extracts water from the ice/water mix and pumps it around through the bag. The body transfers heat into the water, so the faster the water flow the more heat is transferred, and the faster the ice is melted, of course.

I don't know how air is purged from the system - if it is at all - but that would have to happen for a similar system on a motor cycle. In that case the piping would have to be thinner and less intrusive, so there would have to be no air in the system to achieve adequate and consistent flow and equal distribution of cooling effect.

I'll think on this a while, thanks for posting the pics and the description.
...

[2fast]

There was a guy that made a forced cooling vest a few years ago and posted it up. It used a plastic cooler, ice and water and a 12V pump to circulate the water through tubing in his vest. I recall it being bulky but functional for several hours. The problem is the bulk of the cooler. I have a trunk where that would have to go.

[julianop]

Yes Brian, that's exactly what came to my mind. The bike is heavy enough without an extra two or three gallons of water (a third again heavier than gasoline, per gallon) sloshing around in the top box.

I mentioned a Peltier Junction solution a short while back. It turns out there are devices (sub-assemblies, actually) that might work with only sufficient fluid in the system to achieve circulation - maybe a pint or two. My research suggests that a total package, including reservoir, pump, heat exchanger, and piping into a vest might weigh between seven and ten pounds - not trival, but not excessive either. The price might be an issue: I can't see the components along costing any less than about $300.

I will look into the idea, though. If the concept of a jacket with flexible tubing has already been hoisted up the flagpole and folks have not laughed it off stage, then I assume people would at least be willing to give it a look.

[nosaint7]

Cooling - see http://www.veskimo.com/  for reference.  That's the product and price point to beat.

[julianop]

Thanks ns7, I'll look into that product line.

[JDM]

Take a look at this.  http://www.ghidinelli.com/2011/02/28/diy-cool-shirt-system

[julianop]

Thanks JDM.

That system, while obviously effective, seems a little bulky for a Connie. The ice water reservoir would take up the whole top box, which you would need to buy if you didn't have one. One problem with circulating water is that you have to lift it from the storage level, so a side mounted system would be too low. The fittings would have to be of greater robustness, too. There would also be a weight imbalance if ice-water storage was on one side only.

When I get around to this project (which certainly won't be till spring 2013 at the earliest, and after I've got the heater controller under way) I'm going to investigate both the ice water solution and the Peltier cooler solution. They would both use the same jacket.

Here's a quick summary of the pros and cons, as I see them:

PELTIER / ICE WATER

More adjustable and consistent / ice water has only one temperature, so only cooling adjustment is water flow
Doesn't need refilling after initial setup / Needs refilling with Ice when cooling is exhausted
Lighter & smaller (circulated water reservoir only) / Heavier (needs ice mass proportional to required duration)
More expensive (Peltier cooler required) / Cheaper (ice reservoir only)
Needs battery power for cooler/ Battery power needed only for pump, and trivial amount for timer/controller
Needs longer pre-cool time / Ice is immediately cold

And a surprise for you, if you don't know about Peltier junctions...

Can also be used in heating mode / only works as cooler.

[JDM]

I have two 90w Peltiers that I am playing with and they seem to heat better than they cool.

[julianop]

I have two 90w Peltiers that I am playing with and they seem to heat better than they cool.

Hmm, interesting. With Peltiers it's all about differential: for effective cooling you need to get the heat away from the hot side, which means good airflow.
What devices do you have? I'd like to hear any other info/experience you can share...

[JDM]

Hmm, interesting. With Peltiers it's all about differential: for effective cooling you need to get the heat away from the hot side, which means good airflow.
What devices do you have? I'd like to hear any other info/experience you can share...

YOU GOT MAIL

[JDM]

julianop, did you get my PM?

[julianop]

julianop, did you get my PM?

Yes, thanks, I did. I was tied up with stuff yesterday, but will certainly get back to you on it. You made some very helpful comments, and I want to talk more about it very shortly. I'm off on a two-day business trip to Ohio today, but I'll be in touch.

Jules.

[julianop]

An update on the deluxe controller project...
My Gerbing jacket liner (sleeved) and controller (two channel, permanent style) arrived today. I'll install it over the next few days and try it out over the course of next week. That should give me some empirical data (ambient temperature, power setting, comfort, battery voltage) upon which to base my own controller design. I won't have heated gloves until Christmas, so I'll wire the existing heated grips to the controller. The jacket and grips together with my twin Hella FF50 driving lights should present a meaningful load for the alternator.

How do I embed pics directly into my posts? I see some folk doing it, and would like to post some of my installation, but I'll be darned if I can find out how to.