New product idea...

[julianop]

I'm looking for input on a project/product I'm interested in developing. All opinions and suggestions are welcome. You can even tell me my idea is dumb, over-complicated, and unnecessary, I won't mind :-)

The problem (correct me if my assumptions are wrong):
The C10 Connie has limited power available from the alternator, and with additional halogen driving lights there's not a lot left for heated gear, especially for two-up winter driving.

The current state of affairs:
Today's heater controllers work on the principle of pulse width modulation (PWM). With this method, a semiconductor switching device called a MOSFET (Metal Oxide Silicon Field Effect Transistor) continuously switches either all of the available voltage heater circuits or none of it. The ratio of "ON" time to "OFF" time - referred to as the "duty cycle" of the applied voltage - determines, over a period of time, the average power applied to the heater circuits. A simple control knob adjusts the duty cycle. The advantage of this method over a rheostat is that as the switch is either fully open or fully closed, the switch itself does not dissipate any power. A rheostat is essentially just another resistor, after all, so it shares (and therefore wastes) some of the power developed by the current through the circuit.
Multiple PWM switches are often packaged in a single system to control, say, jacket and gloves on one circuit and pants and boot pads on another.
The problem with this is that the circuits are independent, and the total power controlled by the system cannot be limited, thus potentially overloading the charging circuit and/or flattening the motorcycle battery. Power management must be done manually, which is not what the cold weather driver wants to be worrying about.

A potential solution:
As, under steady state conditions, the power applied to any individual heating circuit (jacket or gloves or pants or boots) is only applied for a fraction of the total available time (say 25%), then it would conceptually be possible to sequence the available power to each of the heater circuits in turn. This would keep the total power drawn for the charging circuit to a definable limit.
This power sequencing could easily be implemented by an intelligent controller.
So what happens when you turn on the system when all heaters are cold, and you really want maximum power to all zones? What happens if you suddenly take on a passenger who also wants heat?
A controller could be programmed to prioritize power in a pre-defined sequence, such that for example drivers tunic gets first dibs, his gloves next, passenger's tunic (if present) gets next priority, followed, say, by driver's pants, passenger's pants, driver's boots, and passenger's boots (again, just a random prioritization).
Any adjustment to the controls, or the addition or subtraction of any heater circuit - which would be automatically detected - would cause an automatic "re-balancing" of the system to give as close as possible to the desired power to each zone, as and when that power becomes available.
An auxiliary control box (or mountable controls) that controls the passenger controller plugs into the main controller so that the power required by the passenger heater zones is automatically incorporated into the power distribution sequence.
Finally, the total average power drawn by the system could be controlled, either through a manual input, by an input from your lighting circuits indicating that additional power either is or isn't available, and finally by simple monitoring of the battery voltage.
I would tentatively call such a product a "Priority Power Controller".

What do you all think???

[connie_rider]

Your over my head...
My guess: I suspect it would work, but would take longer to heat and the amp draw would be increased during the cycle period to reach a comfortable temp..

But being from Houston,, if (one day) I need heated clothing because of the cold, "I wait and go riding the next day"....

Ride safe, Ted

[T Cro ®]

While the world is always looking for a better mouse trap one must ask is it really needed or is it simply wanted and at what cost?

Install a VOLTAGE meter...

[julianop]

While the world is always looking for a better mouse trap one must ask is it really needed or is it simply wanted and at what cost?

Gee, tough crowd... Well yes, that precisely is my question to the crowd, Tony :-)

To scope this whole thing, this project is intended to provide a capability for people who want to drive for long distances and late into the year. Managing power automatically allows you to focus your attention where it belongs - on the road. In the four years I've been doing my weekly commute between MN and IL in a car I've hit a coyote and a raccoon, causing non-trivial body damage and taking out lights in both cases. Both of those critters were too big to eat in one sitting, and the rule of thumb states that you don't want to hit anything that big on a motorcycle (though I've never seen a coyote or a raccoon ride a motorcycle...). It occurs to me that the statistical probability of a collision increases with increase in miles, distractions and discomfort.

Ted, that if you limit power draw to a fixed amount, then yes, heating everything from cold would take longer, but you would never draw more than the programmed total amount, even on initial warm-up. If battery voltage drops below a certain point - say because aux driving lights are on - low priority zones might be configured to shut off, or the whole heater system could fold back 10 or 15%, leaving you with at least some heat.

My limited experience (granted, that's only 20,000 miles over the past 15 months) tells me that different parts of the body need different treatment: for me, the tunic would be the most important, followed by gloves, then a toss-up between legs and feet. This controller would allow you to manage that.

The whole point of prioritization and voltage monitoring is that the controller will manage and adjust power draw as a function of power demand and availability so you can focus on other things, plain and simple.

[T Cro ®]

Gee, tough crowd... Well yes, that precisely is my question to the crowd, Tony :-)

Well you did ask for opinions right?   

16 year MI resident... Never had any trouble keeping warm and well lite till the ice covered the road to which that did not always stop me either as I then rode the Ural when the urge struck me.

BUT as I said if you actually can build a better mousetrap I'm sure that people will beat a path to your door. As for me I'll be sitting in the car with the seat heater.   


One of the things that I tired of quickly was putting on all this wired gear (gloves, jacket, pants) and awkwardness of the cords and controllers and such it was just not worth the return as you can not safely ride a bike on snow/ice covered roads. If you can build a system that is less complex than putting on diving gear and plugging yourself into the grid then you would have my attension...

[julianop]

Yes Tony, I did ask for opinions, and I know enough to value yours very highly :-)

Once, while musing on strange things during one of my long rides home on a Friday night, I thought about a piped air system from a heat exchanger down in the engine area. That would require precisely zero electrical power at all, though the plastic pipe would feel a little strange inside a Thinsulate jacket. This system could even pipe warm air to the helmet :-)

After I stopped laughing to myself inside my (cold and foggy) helmet, another thing I thought of (to address your lament about wiring and such) was a design for a magnetic power connector. I have a deep fryer in my kitchen that I use for traditional English fish 'n chips once in a while. It has a funky magnetic connector on the back which disconnects if pulled so the fryer won't get pulled off the counter top by accident. This would be a decent idea for use on motorcycles.

On the same subject, I also thought about an electrical heating system that requires only one single power cord to each of the various heated parts, and would connect to a power receptacle at the most convenient and safest location.  A controller would be mounted in a convenient location but would require no wiring other than power.

The magic comes now:

The controller would send high frequency signals right onto the power line (just like with home remote control systems), and miniature electronics in each piece of clothing would identify a unique channel code and take its heat command and power off the power wires.

Magnetic connectors, and just one wire to the bike, period.

This system would even be fully thermostatically controlled, so you don't have to twiddle at all - just set the temperature you want.

So many crazy ideas, so little common sense :-)

[bbroj]

Upgrade your alternator and get LED and HID lighting....

[T Cro ®]

So many crazy ideas, so little common sense :-)

Are you related to Tesla?

They said he was crazy too....

[bbroj]

It does sound like a very feasalbe and functional idea, don't get me wrong. However, it also seems like there are already tried and proven ideas that accomplish essentially the same thing without the complexity, trial and error and possible expense.

[2fast]

I think what you are describing would be useful to many long distance and shoulder season riders. Some of those features might be a bit over the top, and create a lot of expense along the way. I think having a heat troller that would be pulsed (as is already available), but would automatically respond to voltage output drop and cut back on the pulsing would be pretty cool. I often turn stuff down at long stop lights cause I can see what it's doing to my output.
The other part of that is the heat input I need at speed will vary due to the wind cooling, so I often need to turn things down while going slowly through a town. Addressing those items would be attractive to me.

[julianop]

Tony - Yes, I probably am related: I'm certainly at least half as crazy !

bbroj - Yes, lower wattage lighting would indeed be a good way of cutting down on power requirements...

2fast - Thanks for those valuable details, I'll address them specifically below.

With the welcome input of my learned friends, it seems there are three related issues:

1. Improved lighting is good because in addition to improving visibility it also reduces power consumption, thus allowing for more powerful heating.

2. A more intelligent heat controller that responded to supply voltage would reduce drain on the battery & alternator, which would also help reduce voltage fade on lights. (Is that an issue for HIDs, by the way ?)

3. A more intelligent heat controller that responded to other factors would improve comfort.

Now for a bit of brainstorming...

1. A temperature controlled heater would be excellent, if one could position temperature sensors in appropriate places in the clothing items. However, that would increase cost and wiring complexity. A power-rail communication system would be expensive.

2. If the resistance of the heaters changed with temperature, it could be measured to provide a rough idea of temperature. Calibration and consistency might be tough, though, because of variance.

3. To respond specifically to 2fast's observations, a controller could quite easily be programmed to adjust power based on factors such as speed (like windshield wipers on some vehicles) and ambient temperature. Increasing average power as the temperature decreases, and reducing the average power as speed decreases are easy to implement with appropriate, economic sensors.

I'd like to expand on that last point. With the addition of a low priced microprocessor in the heat controller, features like sequenced scanning, prioritization and voltage are "only software", and they cost only development time, which would be recuperated with sales. They are not inherently expensive, it's just that if they are valuable then manufacturers would charge based on features, which has little to do with cost.

So, if I were to build a couple of prototypes of such a system, is there anybody out there who rides in the cold season who would be interested in testing one out for me? I'm thinking it would need a couple of turns of wire around a plug lead to get a speed input (yes I know that's really engine speed, but assuming nobody spends much time in anything other than 6th gear it's certainly good enough for a prototype). It would monitor the 12V supply for low voltage-based fold-back, and it would have a built-in ambient temperature sensor for temperature-based power boost. I imagine it would be about the size of a pack of cigarettes and would therefore easily fit into a tank bag.

[JDM]

Have you though about taking the OEM alternator and re-work it so it put out more amps?.

[T Cro ®]

Have you though about taking the OEM alternator and re-work it so it put out more amps?.

Reworking the stock alternator to put out more juice is really not an option as there is only just so much room inside the case for more wire and iron; plus the cost of re-winding is fairly costly if you can even find a shop willing to do this for you. There have been a couple of guys who have claimed to have had it done over the years but I don't recall any proof of increased output.

If you want more power your best bet is to keep an eye out for a ZZR1200 alternator....

[Vic Salisbury]

Sounds like a grand concept.  Especially with the low output (relatively) of our charging system.

Can't wait to see the results of this!

[datsaxman@hotmail.com]

Julian,

I live in the snow belt in the SoCal mountains.  Laugh if you like...I rode from New Hampshire two weeks ago.  3400 miles in four days, racing Sandy and other storms.  No heated gear, since I was on a new to me ZX1100.  Then 2200 miles last week, SoCal to Cheyenne, WY and back in two days last weekend.  Yes, it snowed.  A lot.  Gerbing was maxed out the whole time, and I froze anyway.  I only run the jacket liner. 

Skeptical about the possibility that ANY amount of info re: speed, ambient temp, etc. would be able to improve on the present feedback system, which is to say, just turning the gain up or down.

Setting rider preference is *still* going to be necessary, whether you call it "Temp" or "gain" or whatever.  If the "improvement" you propose is to have better "set it and forget it" characteristics, I don't change the gain on mine very often already. 

Still...I ride year round, and sometimes with heated gear.  Willing to put a prototype to the test if you like. 

steve

[julianop]

Grinch - thanks for the enthusiasm. I'll post notes on this project as I go.

datsaxman - thanks for the input. Ain't no laughin' at riding 3400 miles in four days; that's 850 miles a day 

So as I try to characterize your riding (as distinct from 2fast's riding) it seems you're often (well, most recently, at least) on the highway at more or less constant speed for long periods. With little variation in conditions it would make sense you don't need much in the way of dynamic adjustment. The engine is rarely at low RPM, so your alternator is churning out enough power to satisfy the needs of your jacket. Is it the sleeved or sleeveless variety, may I ask? If you're cold even with the jacket at max, I wonder if you're simply underheated? An intelligent controller can't help you in that case - it can't add more heat than the maximum available (actually there's a way around that too, but I'm not up for designing an inverter voltage booster just yet!).

Here's my own "test profile". Let me know what you think...

It's mid October, a pleasant, sunny afternoon around 60 F in northern Illinois - Chicago, say. I am going to ride the six hour journey to Minneapolis, where I live, close enough. I leave around 5:30 PM in bright, warm sunshine. By the time I'm half way home it's 8:30 PM and the sun has set; solar heating is long gone. I've been riding for three hours, and I stop for dinner with three more hours to go. As it's only October there's still plenty of moisture in the cool Midwest air, so the dew falls throughout the rest of the evening, maybe even a bit of fog, and it is now cold and damp and I'm not even at the stateline. This is not pleasant on a bike if one is only 175lbs. In the past I'd have had to change clothes half way - add a lining, sweater, balaclava, etc - for the rest of the ride.

I have electric hand grips, but they are not enough for long periods in the cold: I can't grip the handlebars to conduct sufficient heat through my gloves for six hours at a time, and I get cold fingertips. I want electric gloves. My legs get cold too, after four hours, so a little heat (not much) in the legs would be nice.

Finally, the last leg of my trip includes several traffic light stops around 1 AM. I would anticipate that if a system is keeping me warm at 75, then it's going to overheat me at a red light.

I'm hoping that I can put my electric gear on at the start and be done with it. If I have a controller that is properly sensitive to ambient air temperature and is set up for my physiology, I don't have to keep twiddling with the heat as it gets colder, and hopefully I don't have to stop to add more layers.

So the controller would - assuming one's gear is capable of putting out enough heat in the first place - modulate the heat based on three factors: 1) your basic heat setting, 2) the air temperature, and 3) your speed. You would be able to set the compensation level for both those factors. I would anticipate that the jacket heat would have to increase more than the pants or gloves based on speed, and they would all go up and down as a function of temperature.

I agree that setting rider preference is still going to be necessary. My hope is that continual manual adjustment under changing conditions can be reduced, on the premise that when your gear matters most, you'd like not to have to worry about it.

Keep the opinions coming, guys...

[julianop]

Julian, lets say that over time I have learned my Connie needs 12.4 Volts to start in cold weather and I am running along using all the heated gear I have, and the alternator is not keeping up with the electrical demand. Am I reading you correctly in that your controller can be set to drop electrical load if your battery voltage drops to 12.4 volts.

To answer JDM's question.

Yes, exactly. The controller will drop the electrical loads proportionately and progressively, in accordance with the priority you program, but only as far as is necessary to uphold your 12.4 V critical threshold.

For example, if you want to maintain your tunic for as long as possible, you will set that electrical outlet at a higher priority than, say, the pants outlet.

But before it drops loads altogether it will operate in the prioritized sequence mode where it will reduce power progressively until it is forced to drop something. If the unit is set to hold the tunic at 30% for as long as possible, then it will shut down other loads until it is finally forced to start folding back power to the tunic, and eventually shutting it down if it absolutely as to.

I am thinking of this not just as a fancy, over-complicated fargle. People get marginal and have accidents when under strain, and that happens quicker in adverse conditions. I want to give the serious rider a tool that will help to manage his environment under marginal and/or failed conditions as well as normal conditions. For example, if you take a ride to Alaska and your battery surprises you and gets weak when the temperature drops to 20F, your workload is increased. You want all the support you can get. This design is, if you like, a battery monitor with additional responsibility and capability.

One last hint... note that "electrical loads" in the case I described are the heated gear components managed by the controller...  A person might choose to connect some other device to one of the controlled outputs ...  

[JDM]

Julian, it looks like you figured out how to keep us worm, now how about figuring out how to keep us cool.

[2fast]

This would not be for everyone, but I could see having it switch from main headlight to an LED light, linked with a photo electric sensor (similar to the type used on headlight modulators). Obviously, you would not want this to happen at night. This would redirect quite a few watts.

[julianop]

This would not be for everyone, but I could see having it switch from main headlight to an LED light, linked with a photo electric sensor (similar to the type used on headlight modulators). Obviously, you would not want this to happen at night. This would redirect quite a few watts.

Yes indeed you certainly could switch from main headlight to LED DRL; but with a light sensor you could do that irrespective of available power, right? Isn't it always desirable to conserve battery power and "headlight fluid" ?

I could certainly incorporate that feature into the system if you think it would usefully round out the functionality. Come to that, I could even incorporate headlamp and brake light modulators: there's no technical difference between that and a heated clothing controller.

My ultimate target is actually a full, intelligent, fully integrated power management system. I am dissatisfied with the current marketplace: it gives us lots of over-priced little boxes that vie for location space, use a lot of interface space, and don't work together. With six functions you have to pay the operating expenses of six different companies, making it all prohibitively expensive. With even a modest micro-controller chip several functions can be integrated intelligently with an overall savings in space and cost; and the simplification of the user interface would be very convenient, if designed properly (glove-friendly, eyesight friendly, day/night aware, etc). One you've built the box and the user interface for one function, adding another is almost only a matter of software. I fantasize about a head-up display too, but that's for another day!

JDM - I seriously wish!! I suffered a nasty drop this past summer when I passed out at about 15-20mph from fatigue and overheating from dehydration. Fortunately I'd managed to pull in to a wayside just in time, but it was close. I got nicely bruised up when I fell off (onto a grass verge -again, fortunately), and it took over $800 to fix the bike; it could have been much worse.

Actually I really have had some thoughts about a refrigeration system and water flowing around a jacket in plastic pipes, but I don't think it'd be very practical to implement. It would need either a compressor/condenser/evaporator (heavy and power-sucking) or a water-hungry swamp-cooler-type device. There's a technology called "Peltier Junction" used in camping coolers, but I don't think the devices are available in adequate power ratings. In any case it would be difficult to deal with the plumbing reliably and safely.