Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 3784 times)

Son of Pappy

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Gun Control
« on: October 12, 2014, 11:15:16 PM »
http://wagunrights.org/

http://wagunresponsibility.org/about-594/

Please, please, please.  Be civil, discuss and debate the above.

I stand firmly on the pro gun side.  New laws do nothing to curb violence when the old laws are not being enforced.

I have a question to the anti gun members.  How many people have been prosecuted when failing to pass the current background checks?  The felons and mentally (certified) who know they are prohibited from purchasing, owning, or have in their possession?

Let me answer that question for you.

"Nevertheless, NICS performs millions of checks every year, and usually in under two minutes. In 2010, the agency reviewed more than 6 million 4473 forms. Just 72,142 were denied the right to buy a gun.

Among those denials, 47 percent were rejected because of a felony indictment or conviction. Yet, just 44 were prosecuted, and 13 convicted of lying on their 4473 form, according to a report prepared for the DOJ by the Regional Justice Information Service in 2012. That represents just .0002 percent of all denials, and an even smaller percentage of the total number of background checks.

While the background check does deny guns to criminals, very few are punished for trying. And while a majority of lawmakers appear to support the system, there are lingering questions over to what extent it prevents crime. According to a 2000 report published in The Journal of the American Medical Association, researchers found rates of homicide and suicide were not significantly different in states that had implemented the checks versus states that had not."

My argument is simple, if it is about death and killing people, why the attention on guns and not alcohol and cars (Ted Ks car has killed more people than my firearms)?  Far more violent deaths, daily.  We can keep chipping away at our rights, eventually we will end up with none.  Without the 2nd, the first will fall shortly there after. 

Offline Rick Hall

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2014, 11:17:46 PM »

I have a question to the anti gun members.  How many people have been prosecuted when failing to pass the current background checks?  The felons and mentally (certified) who know they are prohibited from purchasing, owning, or have in their possession?

Failing a test, any test, is not a crime.

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Son of Pappy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 11:50:11 PM »
Not a test Rick, an attempt to purchase a weapon they are clearly not allowed to do.  Falsifying a federal document knowingly is a felony. 
4, just 4 prosecuted.  Seems if they are serious they would prosecute these criminals.  IMO it is all about creating a data base, the one they loudly claim they are not building...

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2014, 07:57:23 AM »
 Absolutely NO on universal background checks. Not because the idea doesn't have a certain amount of merit - I don't want to sell a gun to a bad guy - but because it can only be fully implemented with gun registration. In other words, how can the gov't be SURE the transfer of a firearm is legal if they don't know which firearm was transferred? Sure, they'll tell us "no registration" but when problems arise in the UBC system, we'll be told " the only way to be sure is to have the serial numbers on file". And there you go, now the Gov't knows what door to knock on when the time comes. Steve

Offline Nosmo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 11:42:03 AM »
The BIG problems with Washington State's I-594 are that it will:

Create a de-facto registration system by requiring all personal private sales to be recorded/reported/tracked.

Make the simple act of handing your gun to a friend for target practice or some other non-hunting (or maybe sometimes for hunting) (at certain locations, not very well defined) a crime.  Then when your friend hands it back to you, another crime is committed.  The problem there is how to define "transfer".

As always, the devil is in the details, and there are a couple of paragraphs that are poorly written and the proponents say, "Don't worry about it you won't be prosecuted just for loaning/handing your friend a pistol".  But those paragraphs COULD very well be interpreted to mean that action is a crime.

This initiative, like most, is written by people who want to control those who would fall under the effects of the new law, who are NEVER the same people as those who are writing the law.  No one wants to enact a law that will affect THEM, only ones that will affect OTHERS.  This means that these type of things are written by the non-participants.  No different than if a person who has never touched a motorcycle wanted to make it illegal for a motorcycle owner to do something or other, without realizing the affect upon that person and their usage of their motorcycle.

The non-gun-owners have no clue as to the practical aspects of physically handling firearms, how they are carried, used, etc.  This particular initiative is another knee-jerk reaction to something that no one has a solution to, i.e., criminal usage of firearms.  Criminals who sell each other stolen guns won't comply, but they can't understand that.

And I hate it when the media refers to private sales as "the gun show loophole".  Very few gun shows in this state allow sales between non-members.  Washington Gun Collectors requires anyone who wants to buy/sell to be a member, with laminated I.D. card, etc., which requires a background check or CPL.  You cannot bring a firearm into their shows without your membership card.  No vendor there will sell to you (most won't even let you touch a gun) without seeing your card.
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Offline rocknrod

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2014, 12:55:21 PM »
Failing a test, any test, is not a crime.Rick
Making falls statements on a government form and swearing by those statements is however.
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Son of Pappy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2014, 03:32:41 PM »
Nosmo, very well thought out and written statement. 

Thanks!

Offline Rhino

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2014, 04:03:22 PM »
Never mind, I was thinking 591, you were talking 594. Big difference.

Nosmo, is this not the text of the initiative?  http://sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/FinalText_471.pdf

How does it cause all the problems you pointed out?


Initiative Measure No. 591 (I-591)

PROTECT OUR GUN RIGHTS

AN ACT Relating to protecting gun and other firearm rights; adding new sections to chapter 9.41 RCW; and creating new sections.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:

NEW SECTION. Sec. 1. A new section is added to chapter 9.41 RCW to read as follows:

It is unlawful for any government agency to confiscate guns or other firearms from citizens without due process.

NEW SECTION. Sec. 2. A new section is added to chapter 9.41 RCW to read as follows:

It is unlawful for any government agency to require background checks on the recipient of a firearm unless a uniform national standard is required.

NEW SECTION. Sec. 3. The provisions of this act are to be liberally construed to effectuate the intent, policies, and purposes of this act.

NEW SECTION. Sec. 4. If any provision of this act or its application to any person or circumstance is held invalid, the remainder of the act or the application of the provision to other persons or circumstances is not affected.

NEW SECTION. Sec. 5. This act is known and may be cited as the “Protect Our Gun Rights Act.”

— END —

Offline Nosmo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2014, 08:26:53 PM »
The "bad" text in I-594

(4) This section does not apply to:

(f) The temporary transfer of a firearm (i) between spouses or domestic partners; (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located; (iii) if the temporary transfer occurs and the transferee's possession of the firearm is exclusively at a lawful organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or while participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance; (iv) to a person who is under eighteen years of age for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes while under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult who is not prohibited from possessing firearms; or (v) while hunting if the hunting is legal in all places where the person to whom the firearm is transferred possesses the firearm and the person to whom the firearm is transferred has completed all training and holds all licenses or permits required for such hunting, provided that any temporary transfer allowed by this subsection is permitted only if the person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law;
*******************

The problem lies in what is NOT included in the section which enumerates the things that the law DOESN'T apply to.  Some things that are not mentioned:

My handing a pistol to my friend when we are out target shooting in a remote location, DNR land or a private range, (which would not be included in the "established shooting range" description). 

If we are informally target shooting and not part of an "organized competition". 

If you are hunting with a buddy who brings along his 19 year-old son, and you hand him your rifle to look through the scope, even without intent to fire the weapon. He's not under 18, so the exception to the law does not apply.

If I am showing a friend (not a spouse or other family member), my new pistol, at my home, standing in front of my gun safe, and I hand it to her/him, that is a "transfer" in the meaning (perhaps not the intent) of this law.

If my fiance (not yet my spouse nor currently my domestic partner) gives me her pistol for cleaning in her garage after we come back from the range.  That is a "transfer".

In each case, violation would occur when you hand the gun to the other person, and a second violation would occur when they hand it back to you.

As I said above, the non-gun-owning people who write these things do not understand how and why guns may move from person to person.  I doubt if they intended it to be interpreted this way, but that becomes OUR problem and not THEIR problem if the local LEO's and prosecuting attorneys, etc., interpret it that way, then WE have to defend ourselves in court.  During that defense, our other guns and ammo will be confiscated and held pending the outcome of the trial.  It could take months or years to successfully defend ourselves and get our property back.  If found guilty, then we will be convicted felons and never get it back, in addition to jail time and fines.  All this for people who are otherwise law-abiding, caught up in technicalities, meanwhile people will continue to be murdered by real criminals who are still buying and selling stolen guns without going to their local FFL for the transfer paperwork/background check.

The main thing that control people just don't understand:  Criminals don’t obey laws.  Pass as many laws as you want, once someone has declared themselves to be an outlaw, they can do whatever they want.  THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF AN OUTLAW.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 03:47:46 AM »
'The main thing that control people just don't understand:  Criminals don’t obey laws.'

They understand just fine.

Offline Conrad

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 08:41:10 AM »
I thought that gun control meant using two hands? 
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2014, 09:08:27 AM »
Yes, I am a proponent of gun control myself 'A sharp eye and a steady hand'.

Brian

I thought that gun control meant using two hands?
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Offline Pokey

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2014, 02:29:38 PM »
I thought that gun control meant using two hands?


I am still young enough to skillfully control and shoot with one.  ;D
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2014, 03:37:20 PM »
I'll keep that in mind for next year.
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Offline Pokey

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2014, 12:07:40 AM »
I'll keep that in mind for next year.


Seems every year there is always next year.  :P
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2014, 04:36:22 AM »
I hope so, I'm getting older you know...
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2014, 07:17:19 AM »

I am still young enough to skillfully control and shoot with one.  ;D

Even when you have to set your beer down?
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