Author Topic: Heated Grips Report  (Read 5118 times)

Offline George R. Young

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Heated Grips Report
« on: November 10, 2012, 08:58:49 PM »
When the temp. is below 0 deg C, I don't ride for fear of ice. Above 10 deg C, my hands stay warm enough with simple riding gloves. It's in between where my hands get numb and painful and the clutch gets hard to pull. The goal is to be able to ride at just above 0 deg C without thick insulated gloves.

About a year ago I constructed some heated grips.
http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/gripHeaters.html
Today was a perfect day for an extended test, about 5 deg C., really the first chance I've had. I rode for about 10 km with non-insulated riding gloves, then switched on the heaters and rode the same 10 km back home.

I thought that the throttle side would need more power to overcome the extra plastic insulation, so I set it up with 20 W on the right side and about 14W on the left.

Well the throttle side was warmer that the clutch side.

So the next step is to increase to 20 W on the clutch side too.
65 CB160 (67-69), 69 350GTR (69-72), 72 R5, 73 RD350 (73-84), 82 XZ550 Vision (84-03), 01 Concours C10 (03-19), 89 EX250 (11-14), 00 SV650S (14-16), 03 SV650S (19-)

Offline DeansZG

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 07:02:51 AM »

   Great write-up & a nice clean install!   Very stealth, I don't think anyone will notice it unless you mention it to them.
'99 C10 "MissTriss" *sold*
'04 ZZR1200 "Sweet heart" *sold*
'81 GL1100 Interstate "Puttz"*sold*
'00 K12LT..."Battleship Galactica".....

Offline jworth

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 01:17:26 PM »
How much did the aluminum clad resistors cost you and where did you source them?

Offline George R. Young

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2012, 02:30:21 PM »
65 CB160 (67-69), 69 350GTR (69-72), 72 R5, 73 RD350 (73-84), 82 XZ550 Vision (84-03), 01 Concours C10 (03-19), 89 EX250 (11-14), 00 SV650S (14-16), 03 SV650S (19-)

Offline Uded2me

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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 01:55:05 PM »
d e a d
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 09:58:57 PM by knight_mare »

Offline George R. Young

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 06:33:30 PM »
You could for example have a 10 and a 4 ohm in series for low, and short out the 4 ohm for high. It means more wires to get by the resistors.

You might also consider a dimmer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-8A-LED-Light-Dimmer-Brightness-Adjustable-Bright-Controller-Single-Color-/300728464935?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4604d03627
(Haven't tried this myself)
65 CB160 (67-69), 69 350GTR (69-72), 72 R5, 73 RD350 (73-84), 82 XZ550 Vision (84-03), 01 Concours C10 (03-19), 89 EX250 (11-14), 00 SV650S (14-16), 03 SV650S (19-)

Offline julianop

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 06:37:50 PM »
This controller looks, by its description, like a "Linear" type, which adjusts the voltage to the load (the grip heaters in this case). I could be wrong, of course; it could PWM at at high enough frequency that the LEDs would flicker faster than the eye can see (as in modern LED automotive brake/tail lights), but the description does say "constant voltage, constant current", which is not really what you want.

Modern controllers turn the power full on and off rapidly with varying on and off times to achieve the desired average power. This is called "Pulse Width Modulation", abbreviated to "PWM". The advantage is that as the electronics switch is either full on or off there is no power dissipated in the controller (and therefore wasted).

If you are handy and would like a design for a fancier (PWM) controller, let me know, and I'll whip one up for you.

Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline Uded2me

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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 07:06:06 PM »
d e a d
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 09:58:42 PM by knight_mare »

Offline George R. Young

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2012, 08:18:43 PM »
Sure, that sounds like it would work.
65 CB160 (67-69), 69 350GTR (69-72), 72 R5, 73 RD350 (73-84), 82 XZ550 Vision (84-03), 01 Concours C10 (03-19), 89 EX250 (11-14), 00 SV650S (14-16), 03 SV650S (19-)

Offline julianop

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2012, 09:01:45 PM »
Of course that would work, Knight-Mare. It's very simple and effective if you can find space for the wiring.
The only "problem", if it is one, is that your choice of power settings is finite, and has to be done upon assembly. A controller-driven solution is infinitely adjustable, and the only choice you have to make is the maximum power, which determines the value of the resistors.
Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline RFH87_Connie

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 06:17:29 AM »
Just to throw it out there.  I use this (put in a box from Radio Shack) to control my heated jacket liner.  This is what Julianop is refering to.  Probably could handle your needs with no problem.  Mine is over three years old and no problems.  I used a 4-wire trailer connector pigtail coming out of the box to hook everything up so it can be easily removed if necessary.  It doesn't come with a knob either but those were maybe $3 at RS for 5 of them.

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/MX033

You could probably desolder the control pot and mount it wherever you want.  I though of doing that but never did.  This would let you hide the "guts" wherever you want to.
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Offline julianop

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 03:10:58 PM »
Yup, that is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about, RFH87_Connie. Thanks for the link, by the way.

Of course, fancy though it is, this still isn't what knight-mare wants :-)

This PWM business is an area of great interest and some experience for me. I am professionally involved in designing electro-thermal ice protection systems for aircraft, and pulse width modulation is used extensively in that arena.

This leads me to an idea I have for a project/product that I will write up in a separate thread: a multi-channel, "power budgeting" heater controller...
Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline JDM

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2012, 08:23:02 AM »
Yup, that is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about, RFH87_Connie. Thanks for the link, by the way.

Of course, fancy though it is, this still isn't what knight-mare wants :-)

This PWM business is an area of great interest and some experience for me. I am professionally involved in designing electro-thermal ice protection systems for aircraft, and pulse width modulation is used extensively in that arena.

This leads me to an idea I have for a project/product that I will write up in a separate thread: a multi-channel, "power budgeting" heater controller...

When will you be doing this? I feel any knowledge is good knowledge.
If you have seen heaven, I am sure something scared the hell out of you.

Offline julianop

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2012, 10:33:43 AM »
When will you be doing this? I feel any knowledge is good knowledge.

I totally agree, JDM. I've started already, and have a discussion thread already open in this branch of the forum ("New Project Idea...". I would welcome any input from you on the idea in the form of suggestions or experiences, or even criticism and derision ;-)

I have a friend working on a hardware design, his being a bit more up to date on component technology than I am, while I'm working on the software algorithms. I hope to get a prototype together to alpha-test before the end of the slippery season, but that might be optimistic.

The current plan is to modulate power based on three variables: battery voltage, speed, and temperature. At high voltage the systems will drive each heated zone normally, just like any other system, but under low voltage conditions the controller will go into a special mode whereby it dishes out only a limited amount of power, distributed sequentially across all zones so as to minimize drain on the battery. Power would be reduced below the nominal at low speed, and increased above the nominal at high speed. The power would also be increased as ambient temperature dropped and decreased as ambient temperature increased. You can read more in the other thread.

I guess I should file a patent application on this, shouldn't I, rather than blab it all across the Internet and lose it to somebody else   :o

I actually have another trick or two up my sleeve, but I'm not ready to reveal them yet :-)
Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline JDM

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2012, 06:10:57 PM »
I totally agree, JDM. I've started already, and have a discussion thread already open in this branch of the forum ("New Project Idea...". I would welcome any input from you on the idea in the form of suggestions or experiences, or even criticism and derision ;-)

I have a friend working on a hardware design, his being a bit more up to date on component technology than I am, while I'm working on the software algorithms. I hope to get a prototype together to alpha-test before the end of the slippery season, but that might be optimistic.

The current plan is to modulate power based on three variables: battery voltage, speed, and temperature. At high voltage the systems will drive each heated zone normally, just like any other system, but under low voltage conditions the controller will go into a special mode whereby it dishes out only a limited amount of power, distributed sequentially across all zones so as to minimize drain on the battery. Power would be reduced below the nominal at low speed, and increased above the nominal at high speed. The power would also be increased as ambient temperature dropped and decreased as ambient temperature increased. You can read more in the other thread.

I guess I should file a patent application on this, shouldn't I, rather than blab it all across the Internet and lose it to somebody else   :o

I actually have another trick or two up my sleeve, but I'm not ready to reveal them yet :-)

I am not sure this will be of any help to you but the heated grips that I have pull about 1.6 Amps each and the OEM alternator can put out about 26 Amps as I recall. With your new design, what do you see for an Amp draw?
If you have seen heaven, I am sure something scared the hell out of you.

Offline julianop

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2012, 07:00:49 PM »
JDM, it is helpful in that I can use it as a real example.

Here we go, fetch your reading glasses, a calculator, and a cup of coffee...

If you have two grips at a rated current of 1.6A each, battery voltage in the normal range, (let's say above 12.25V - I will determine a more specific cut-off threshold during testing) and controller set to 50%, then the peak current will be 1.6 * 2 = 3.2A, and the average current will be 1.6 * 2 * .5 = 1.6A, just like any other controller.

If the battery voltage drops down below the critical voltage then the duty cycle (which determines average current) applied to the grips will be reduced dynamically such that the average current will drop to the point that the average battery voltage stops falling, or until the pre-programmed minimum current is reached (say for the sake of argument that's 1A, but you'll get to program the actual value yourself.)

Now, if the controller is set to give 100% - or 1.6A to each grip - that's a total of 3.2A, both peak and average (peak and average are always the same at 100%). Again, if the battery voltage drops down to the cut-off threshold, the duty cycle will start to be reduced, this time more harshly until the battery voltage stops falling or until the minimum current is reached.

So  it doesn't matter what the power setting is, the power will be reduced as the battery voltage drops so as to protect the remaining charge in the battery, while attempting to keep your hands warm.

The difference becomes even more significant when you add your electro-thermal jacket to the equation.

Let's say your jacket takes 1.8A. With both the jacket and the grips on at 100% the peak and average current (always the same at 100%) is 1.8 + 1.6 + 1.6 = 5A. If the battery voltage drops down to the "priority threshold" (which is always above the critical fold-back threshold, but let's say it's 12.8V)  the controller will switch into the prioritized sequence mode. The calculated maximum available current (programmable, but let's say 3A) will be divided between the grips and the tunic by sequencing the current through each heater circuit in turn, and also by adjusting the duty cycle (percentage on time). First the grips will get current, then the tunic, then back to the grips. instantaneous current will be 3.2A for grips and 1.8A for the tunic, but the average current (the current that causes the voltage drop) will be 3A. As the battery voltage falls down to the critical threshold, the average current will then start to be reduced until the battery voltage stops dropping or until the minimum current is reached.

As you see, the controller is smart enough to search for the optimum compromise of desired heat level vs safe battery voltage.

Now you see that the controller is making changes based on battery voltage, it should be easy to see how it can make adjustments based on speed. A speed signal from the engine tells the controller how fast you are going, and the controller will - within the limits set by the battery voltage monitor, which always takes priority - adjust the average power to each heated item based on the change in speed from a nominal value. You could set the nominal speed at 40 MPH, and you could program the controller to reduce the power to all items (individually !!) by some value at 0 MPH, and increase it by a value at 70MPH. The tunic could go down to a minimum of 10% at standstill while the pants could shut off altogether. At 70MPH the tunic could go up to 100%, while the gloves could go up to 80%.

Finally, you can see how the same adjustments could be made based on temperature. I've already noticed how several people are sensitive to cold while others are Eskimos. You could have the tunic shut off altogether above 40F, the pants shut off above 35F, while the gloves could stay on right up to 50F if you so choose. At temperatures below 30F you could send the tunic to 100%, the gloves at 80, and the pants to 45%. Below 25F your boots come on at 65%.

Again, all this is limited by the battery voltage, which always has priority, for safety. As the battery voltage drops below the priority sequence threshold each item gets gets rationed power - always in proportion to the percentage demand.

You can clearly see that if we add more heated components- say gloves, pants, boots, and the same again for a passenger - then this automatic monitor and control system starts to make a lot of sense. Instead of twiddling around and arguing with the wife or girlfriend you set the priorities up front.

Of course you'll be able to make temporary changes on the fly: if your significant other/passenger gets cold and grumpy (not good if you want her to keep you warm once you get to the hotel), you will be able to temporarily "bump" the priority of any or all items on the passengers extension controller (which connects to - and is automatically incorporated into the control strategy of - the pilot's controller) to keep the dear lady warm and happy.

Again, while there is plenty of power all heated zones get whatever percentage they are set to; but under high load conditions the system automatically makes adjustments to adopt the best compromise between requested heat and safe battery voltage.

One advantage (specially for for the disbelievers!) is that your settings will never get "lost". The nominal setting you program into the system stays there despite the "bumps". Once you have the system set up to suit your physiology, meteorology, clothing, and riding style, it will always be there for you at a press of the starter.

There are a couple exciting little more little gimmicks, but I'll keep them to myself for now, so as not to give away the farm.

Lastly, let me say, with some concern,  that I'm taking a HUGE risk on this commercial opportunity by sharing all these details. I hope I won't get gazumped by somebody getting to market before me. I'm gambling that by sharing details and getting feedback early, I will get a better product out the door for the good of the motorcycling community. I hope I'm not making a mistake. I will definitely be making a patent application on this device.

I hope this helps. Feel free to post more questions and make more suggestions.

Julian.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 11:15:11 PM by julianop »
Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline JDM

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2012, 09:11:21 PM »
Julian, lets say that over time I have learned my Connie needs 12.4 Volts to start in cold weather and I am running along using all the heated gear I have, and the alternator is not keeping up with the electrical demand. Am I reading you correctly in that your controller can be set to drop electrical load if your battery voltage drops to 12.4 volts.
If you have seen heaven, I am sure something scared the hell out of you.

Offline julianop

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Re: Heated Grips Report
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2012, 10:45:28 PM »
Yes, JDM, that's exactly it. Please go over to my own thread for more info. I've just realized I've rudely hijacked George's thread. I apologize, George, didn't mean to  :(  :-[
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 11:24:42 PM by julianop »
Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.