Clutch wearing?

[jdhreiss]

  I have 98k on my 08 abs and it seems that the clutch lever is engaging further and further out.  I can pull the lever in about 1" and the clutch disengages.  It does not slip.  Could it be that the plates are wearing thin to make this happen.  Other than that, it's all good.

Joe R.
Kelso, wa

[B.D.F.]

Mine also engages when the clutch lever is pretty far out but I have not noticed it change in 76K miles, although it might have and I did not notice it because the change was very slow.

Your clutch plates are certainly worn to some degree after all that use but as long as it does not slip under any circumstances, and the engagement is smooth and predictable (no grabbing, chattering or shuddering), the clutch is operating properly and it is almost certainly in fine condition. That said, it would not be a horrible idea to pull the right side engine side cover, remove the clutch plates and take a look at how much friction material is left. While you (or a mechanic) were in there, it would be worth looking over the alternator too for signs of overheating or insulation cracking. Again, I do not suspect anything is wrong and probably would not bother to even look myself but if you are really concerned about absolute reliability, it would not be out of line to do a quick inspection after all those miles.

Brian

  I have 98k on my 08 abs and it seems that the clutch lever is engaging further and further out.  I can pull the lever in about 1" and the clutch disengages.  It does not slip.  Could it be that the plates are wearing thin to make this happen.  Other than that, it's all good.

Joe R.
Kelso, wa

[Ga. Cycle Rider]

Jd....kinda off your original topic but you rode a sh#t load of miles in a short period. I am curious about your valve clearance checks...if any. I am new to the 14 and would like to know how many times you have had to shim the beast. Also, other than the clutch have you had any other issues bother you enough to lose sleep over. Now that I think about it....with 98k, do you sleep.  Thanks, GCR

[C14_Rider]

  I have 98k on my 08 abs and it seems that the clutch lever is engaging further and further out.  I can pull the lever in about 1" and the clutch disengages.  It does not slip.  Could it be that the plates are wearing thin to make this happen.  Other than that, it's all good.

What you are describing is a symptom of clutch wear for a cable-actuated clutch.  But correct me if I'm wrong (since I may be going out on a limb here), with a hydraulic clutch like the C14 has, clutch wear will not cause this since the system is self-adjusting if it is working right.

When the clutch is engaged, lever released, if clutch plate wear is occurring, the resting position of the slave cylinder will be gradually pushed out by the change in position of the spring loaded pressure plate.  This is accomodated by a small amount of clutch fluid being forced into the reservoir, which means as the clutch wears, the fluid level in the reservoir should increase slightly (may not be noticable, I'm not sure.)  When you pull in on the lever to disengage the clutch, only then does that close the hole that opens to the reservior and make it a closed system where movement of the lever is matched by that of the slave cylinder.

If what you are describing is in fact happening, I would think that would be more of a symptom of the master cylinder piston not retracting far enough to open up the cross drilled hole to the reservoir, thus not allowing the slave cylinder to retract fully over time.  This might happen with something wrong with the master cylinder or the lever.  I suppose there could be so much clutch wear that the slave cylinder is at the end if its possible retraction, but I think usually slave cylinders are designed with more clearance than maximum plate wear, so I would doubt that.  Also a problem with the slave cylinder that is stopping it from retracting with wear could I guess cause the same thing.

[jdhreiss]

 C14 Rider -  I'm going to have to digest your reply, but I think you are correct.  And being in my late fifty's, I do think in a cable clutch world...  ;-)

GaCycle Rider - I have never had the valves looked at.  I have a buddy that has a road race team (ZlockRacing) and he puts more miles a year on his Wee-Strom than I do.  He said with synthetic oils (and not hammering it) valve wear is not that critical.  I get the same mileage (42) as the day I bought it.  Performance remains the same, I have a friend with 5k on his 08 for comparison.  I plan to do a compression test on the next spark plug change (I'm on the 3rd set) just to see.  I'm not advocating going without valve checks, but it works for me.
  I ride alot in Canada - Did the Canadian Rockies 4 times in Alberta, Went to Yellow Knife, Northwest Terroritories, where the Ice Road begins (200 miles of dirt road), and then Eastern Washington/Oregon.  I don't leave alot of vacation time on the books at work, but I do it now in case I can't later on.  Ride safe!

[B.D.F.]

Agreed on the cable actuated clutch symptoms.

As far as the hydraulics being 'hung up' slightly, that would result in the clutch eventually slipping and actually disengaging because as the system warmed up, the fluid would expand and push the slave cylinder further and further open. That is one of the good and bad things about hydraulics- they either work correctly or they begin to fail in some way and it is almost impossible to have them hang at some point in-between.

About the only problems reported on C-14 clutch hydraulics are 1) air in the system, even occurring occasionally without touching the hydraulics (maybe the MC sucks a small air bubble from the reservoir?), and 2) a worn slave cylinder. Several of us have had a problematic worn slave cylinder at high mileage (mine began to act oddly at 50K +), with the biggest symptom being that the clutch engages at different points as the engine warms. Not dangerous but pretty annoying. All have been replaced under warranty as I remember.

This is my slave cylinder with the worn patch clearly visible:

Brian

What you are describing is a symptom of clutch wear for a cable-actuated clutch.  But correct me if I'm wrong (since I may be going out on a limb here), with a hydraulic clutch like the C14 has, clutch wear will not cause this since the system is self-adjusting if it is working right.

When the clutch is engaged, lever released, if clutch plate wear is occurring, the resting position of the slave cylinder will be gradually pushed out by the change in position of the spring loaded pressure plate.  This is accomodated by a small amount of clutch fluid being forced into the reservoir, which means as the clutch wears, the fluid level in the reservoir should increase slightly (may not be noticable, I'm not sure.)  When you pull in on the lever to disengage the clutch, only then does that close the hole that opens to the reservior and make it a closed system where movement of the lever is matched by that of the slave cylinder.

If what you are describing is in fact happening, I would think that would be more of a symptom of the master cylinder piston not retracting far enough to open up the cross drilled hole to the reservoir, thus not allowing the slave cylinder to retract fully over time.  This might happen with something wrong with the master cylinder or the lever.  I suppose there could be so much clutch wear that the slave cylinder is at the end if its possible retraction, but I think usually slave cylinders are designed with more clearance than maximum plate wear, so I would doubt that.  Also a problem with the slave cylinder that is stopping it from retracting with wear could I guess cause the same thing.

[jdhreiss]

C14 Rider - I have had the same situation with the clutch engagement points changing slightly during a ride.  I last changed the brake fluid on 9/15/11.  I also noted that one time I used Castrol Part Synthetic motor oil (in the motor) and the the transmission shifted alot smoother.  I'll try that again and see if it helps.  I'll bleed the clutch again and see if there is any air in it.  Thanks for the info. 

Joe
08 Concours abs.  Cee Bailey Mid euro cut windshield, Heated grips, Muffler opened up and reduced length 6 inches, Garman 660 GPS. 

[C14_Rider]

I'll bleed the clutch again and see if there is any air in it.

I had a dickens of a time bleeding the clutch on a car years ago, I think with the slave cylinder being almost directly below the master cylinder, the small air bubbles in the line were floating up as fast as I was intermittently pushing them back down.  Very frustrating!  I finally emptied the system, got about 6' of clear tubing the size that fits tight on the bleeder at the slave cyl, opened the bleeder a little, attached the tubing to it, stuck a small funnel in the other end (after tapering the end with an exacto IIRC), and hung it from a ladder so it was about 2' above the height of the master cyl, then slowly poured the fluid in the funnel.  Filling from the bottom of the system, the air all came right out the top, and when the master cyl was at the correct level, I shut the bleeder.  Worked perfectly for years after that, no bleeding required.

edit:   ...but keep in mind that this only works well if the line into the slave cyl enters at the top of the cylinder, otherwise air will be trapped in the slave.  From the C14 parts cat pic, it looks like the banjo fitting is not at the top.  So if this method is used, bleeding the slave will still be required.  But there is unlikely to be any air anywhere else in the system to worry about, so the bleeding goes better.

[jimmymac]

Did someone play with the adjuster at the lever?

I keep mine adjusted close to the bar to avoid having to reach so far.

[B.D.F.]

That is called reverse pressure bleeding- where fluid, under pressure, is introduced at the slave cylinder and forced up toward the master cylinder. It usually works fine but it can be difficult to keep removing fluid from the master cylinder as it fills, and the bleeders usually leak at the caliper (slave cylinder) and make a mess.

Brian

I had a dickens of a time bleeding the clutch on a car years ago, I think with the slave cylinder being almost directly below the master cylinder, the small air bubbles in the line were floating up as fast as I was intermittently pushing them back down.  Very frustrating!  I finally emptied the system, got about 6' of clear tubing the size that fits tight on the bleeder at the slave cyl, opened the bleeder a little, attached the tubing to it, stuck a small funnel in the other end (after tapering the end with an exacto IIRC), and hung it from a ladder so it was about 2' above the height of the master cyl, then slowly poured the fluid in the funnel.  Filling from the bottom of the system, the air all came right out the top, and when the master cyl was at the correct level, I shut the bleeder.  Worked perfectly for years after that, no bleeding required.

edit:   ...but keep in mind that this only works well if the line into the slave cyl enters at the top of the cylinder, otherwise air will be trapped in the slave.  From the C14 parts cat pic, it looks like the banjo fitting is not at the top.  So if this method is used, bleeding the slave will still be required.  But there is unlikely to be any air anywhere else in the system to worry about, so the bleeding goes better.

[jdhreiss]

BDF- I'm planning to take a look at that slave cylinder.  Did it bleed down if you held the clutch in for a long time.  The rainy season is upon us out here in Washington, so I'll have alot of time to pull that slave cylinder.  Was that a warranty issue of did you purchase a new one?  Joe

[B.D.F.]

It did not bleed down when being held in that I noticed. The big problem was that the engagement point would change quite a bit from cold to warm- when the bike started off cold, the clutch would engage with the clutch lever still very close to the handlebar. As the engine (and clutch) warmed up, it would move further away from the handlebar. It always worked correctly but it made it somewhat difficult to launch the bike when not fully warm because the clutch would grab sooner than expected.

My slave cylinder assembly was replaced under warranty and there was no charge to me.

The slave cylinder is fairly easy to R & R with the fairings in place. Just be careful of that plastic spacer behind the cylinder as it seems to be fairly fragile.

Brian

BDF- I'm planning to take a look at that slave cylinder.  Did it bleed down if you held the clutch in for a long time.  The rainy season is upon us out here in Washington, so I'll have alot of time to pull that slave cylinder.  Was that a warranty issue of did you purchase a new one?  Joe

[Tactical_Mik]

Had a similar problem with the clutch on my friends much lower mileage (somewhere in the neighborhood of 12K) C14.  We ended up replacing the slave seals as the slave puck did not show signs of wear and that cured the problem.