Manual Cam Chain Tensioner for 09 c14?? or replace with HYDRAULIC ??

[JS_racer]

APE Manual Cam Chain Tensioner for an 09 c14, is that the   APE Manual Cam Chain Tensioner Kawasaki ZX14 (06-11)  KTZX14 ??

thinking of trying one, is this the one to get, or are there other better ones available ??
thanks much

or just get the TENSIONER-ASSY,HYDRAULIC 12048-0047 ??

my local independent mechanic is going to put his ear on my bike noise, it kinda sounds like a chain, but that's relating it to automotive experience, he should have a better idea.
will probably buy the part myself and do the install, screw another 6 weeks to misdiagnose the noise. 
(noise http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg248325#msg248325 )

thanks much for the time

[gPink]

I have not heard anyone being sorry they put the manual on. I think you are correct with the zx part number.

[martin_14]

ask Brian. He did the mod, and he's quite technically versed, so he should be able to help out.

[B.D.F.]

The APE is the only one I know of so I have nothing else to compare it with; not sure if there are any others around or not. ?? At any rate, in the end, it is a nut, a bolt and a locknut so it is really pretty impossible to improve much. The only fault I have found with the APE one is that the threads are not sealed and after a while, a small amount of oil will seep past the threads; this is NOT a leak and mine has not ever dripped in well over 50K miles, but you will see an oil ring around the adjustment bolt after a while. I only mention this because some people have taken it as a flaw or fault when really it does not amount to anything IMO.

Not sure what noise you are trying to fix but the manual cam chain adjuster will only fix the start- up rattle on the C-14, not any kind of continuous cam chain or valve train noise. There should not be any continuous cam chain or <appreciable> valve train noise on a correctly functioning C-14 engine; if there is and a manual CCT fixes it, I would think the original, automatic CCT was faulty to begin with. As far as I know, the stock CCT works fine and will not cause any real problem, it merely backs off a bit too much when there is no oil pressure to allow the chain to slap on the engine block but not enough to allow valve- piston contact or allow the cam chain to jump a tooth. So going to the mechanical unit is only useful for eliminating that 2-3 second start up clatter that all C-14's seem to have (as an added 'no cost' benefit).

Brian

APE Manual Cam Chain Tensioner for an 09 c14, is that the   APE Manual Cam Chain Tensioner Kawasaki ZX14 (06-11)  KTZX14 ??

thinking of trying one, is this the one to get, or are there other better ones available ??
thanks much

or just get the TENSIONER-ASSY,HYDRAULIC 12048-0047 ??

my local independent mechanic is going to put his ear on my bike noise, it kinda sounds like a chain, but that's relating it to automotive experience, he should have a better idea.
will probably buy the part myself and do the install, screw another 6 weeks to misdiagnose the noise. 
(noise http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg248325#msg248325 )

thanks much for the time

[MAN OF BLUES]

APE Manual Cam Chain Tensioner for an 09 c14, is that the   APE Manual Cam Chain Tensioner Kawasaki ZX14 (06-11)  KTZX14 ??

thinking of trying one, is this the one to get, or are there other better ones available ??
thanks much

or just get the TENSIONER-ASSY,HYDRAULIC 12048-0047 ??

my local independent mechanic is going to put his ear on my bike noise, it kinda sounds like a chain, but that's relating it to automotive experience, he should have a better idea.
will probably buy the part myself and do the install, screw another 6 weeks to misdiagnose the noise. 
(noise http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg248325#msg248325 )

thanks much for the time

yep, I agree...
pulling the valve cover off, and the tensioner out, and inspecting both to see if either the chain has strtched, or the tensioner is malfunctioning is just sooooo much of a p.I.t.a.



buy a bolt and nut, and screw it in....
it'll work

until it stops working.

do you reallly think Kaw would spend what they spent, on that mechanism, when they could hqve done a bolt and nut ?? really.... wtf?


oh, I forgot, we have KiPass...


nevermknd

[JS_racer]

from what i have been told, the noise is internal, possibly in the trans.
scheduled to pull the motor and investigate at the end of the season.

[B.D.F.]

Well given that, it does not seem to me that a mechanical CCT will do any good; once the engine is running and the oil pressure is up to normal, the automatic CCT works fine. It would seem that you have some other problem that no CCT is going to address.

Sorry to hear about the internal noise- that is never fast, cheap or easy to repair unfortunately. But the very best of luck moving forward and given a competent mechanic, there is no reason to believe it cannot and will not be fixed correctly.

Please do let us know how this goes.

Brian

from what i have been told, the noise is internal, possibly in the trans.
scheduled to pull the motor and investigate at the end of the season.

[just gone]

from what i have been told, the noise is internal, possibly in the trans.
scheduled to pull the motor and investigate at the end of the season.

So maybe you do have the same problem as mine, only it's noisier?
Just in case it is, and if you are still riding it, skip 4th gear.

If you don't mind me asking, what did all that ineffective clutch work cost you? (not counting the value of the time you couldn't ride)
edit: Nevermind, I see now $160.00.
 I've spent more on a wasted effort, but then there is all that time not riding and it still isn't fixed.

[Rhino]

My OEM hydraulic CCT after about 20,000 miles failed to provide enough tension and my C14 would always rattle at idle. My theory is that my chain stretched just enough to be at the point that the ratchet on the CCT couldn't get the next notch. There is about 1/8" of travel between notches and the slot for the clip. An ape manual CCT completely solved my rattling at idle problem.

[B.D.F.]

Did you by chance check the oil pressure on the bike, at idle and then higher RPMs? The reason I ask is that what you are describing sounds like insufficient hydraulic (oil in this case) pressure to force the CCT out (not that kind of 'out', just forward). If you do have low oil pressure a manual CCT would certainly cure the cam chain rattle but the more serious situation will go merrily along- low oil pressure. Just a thought but it would be something I would check or have checked given your symptoms; the OEM CCT requires a certain amount of oil pressure to actually work. It is fairly easy to do if you have a pressure gauge and <should> be reasonable in cost to have done by a mechanic / dealer.

And of course, the viscosity of the oil you are using and the ambient temp., which in turn affects the running temp. of the bike, all make a difference. So perhaps if you were using a 5W- XX or even a 10W- XX weight oil and you are in a very hot environment, that alone might cause low enough oil pressure at idle even if everything is otherwise perfect.

Way back in the olden days, early Honda 750 Fours (K1 and K3s as I remember) used to do that a lot- generate very low oil pressure at idle. So much so that after a few years and miles, the oil light would come on whenever the bike was idling and then stutter and flash its way to off as the engine's RPMs picked up. I do not know what the oil pressure light point was on the Hondas but on older GMs it was 4 PSI.... which really is pretty low. That said, I never heard of a 750 four actually 'wearing out' or having any serious internal problem (Easy Boys!).

Brian

My OEM hydraulic CCT after about 20,000 miles failed to provide enough tension and my C14 would always rattle at idle. My theory is that my chain stretched just enough to be at the point that the ratchet on the CCT couldn't get the next notch. There is about 1/8" of travel between notches and the slot for the clip. An ape manual CCT completely solved my rattling at idle problem.

[Rembrant]

Way back in the olden days, early Honda 750 Fours (K1 and K3s as I remember) used to do that a lot- generate very low oil pressure at idle. So much so that after a few years and miles, the oil light would come on whenever the bike was idling and then stutter and flash its way to off as the engine's RPMs picked up. I do not know what the oil pressure light point was on the Hondas but on older GMs it was 4 PSI.... which really is pretty low.

Brian

Brian,

I never did check the oil pressure on a C14, but I seem to recall the low oil pressure switch is pretty low...like 3-4 psi iirc.

I rebuilt a crashed Kawi ZRX1200R a few years ago and had a temporary oil pressure gauge installed for the initial fire-up, etc.

You'll see the gauge in the video below...it was running around 10 psi at idle, and when it got good and hot, it would dip down into the 7-8 psi range, or lower. I have no idea, but I assume the C14 is roughly the same...just thinking out loud...

Gauge just to the right of the Carbtune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy0_1q1UF7Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXjHFaBJ7aw

[Rembrant]

Oh, and BTW...my 08 C14 timing chain rattled for a few seconds on cold starts for the several years I had it, but my 2010 c14 never made a sound.

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, it really does not matter what the oil pressure in the entire system is as long as all the bearings (hydrodynamic bearings, not any kind of roller or ball bearing) are full; the dynamics of the spinning shaft actually provide all the pressure needed to suspend the shaft above the saddle (I want full credit for refraining from any 'Easy Boys!' at least three different times). So it is more of an emotional response really than anything based on how the systems actually work. Still, disconcerting to watch :-)

Brian

Brian,

I never did check the oil pressure on a C14, but I seem to recall the low oil pressure switch is pretty low...like 3-4 psi iirc.

I rebuilt a crashed Kawi ZRX1200R a few years ago and had a temporary oil pressure gauge installed for the initial fire-up, etc.

You'll see the gauge in the video below...it was running around 10 psi at idle, and when it got good and hot, it would dip down into the 7-8 psi range, or lower. I have no idea, but I assume the C14 is roughly the same...just thinking out loud...

Gauge just to the right of the Carbtune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy0_1q1UF7Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXjHFaBJ7aw

[AlbertaDoug]

Oh, and BTW...my 08 C14 timing chain rattled for a few seconds on cold starts for the several years I had it, but my 2010 c14 never made a sound.

Curious about your 2010, my 2014 has 29000kms and has the rattle at startup!

[maxtog]

Oh, and BTW...my 08 C14 timing chain rattled for a few seconds on cold starts for the several years I had it, but my 2010 c14 never made a sound.

Yeah, my 2011 doesn't make this noise either.... at least not yet...

[banditrider]

My '08 with 126,000km on it definitely has the rattle at start-up.  Mostly it stops after 1-2 seconds or if I give the throttle a little blip.  Wondering if I need to look at replacing it given my mileage?  It definitely does quit rattling quickly so is there anything wrong with it?

[VirginiaJim]

The noise is normal.  I have it as well.  You can try replacing the adjuster with another one and if it does fix the noise or not, let us know.

[B.D.F.]

C-14's generate the 'start- up rattle' because the cam chain adjuster works on engine oil pressure; it is oil pressure that forces the piston out to take up the slack in the chain. The CCT retracts a bit, until the next tooth on the ratchet, when there is no oil pressure such as when the engine is not running. So at start- up, the cam chain is a little loose and seems to bump against the engine's side case until oil pressure builds enough to take the slack out. Usually, these bikes will not make the start- up noise, or not make it nearly as much if the bike is on the centerstand or standing straight rather than leaned over on the sidestand; I believe this is because while the chain is still loose, it does not move to the side and tap against the engine casing.

At any rate, this is a very common situation with a C-14 and nothing to worry about as long as the noise goes away w/in, say, 5 seconds of starting. A manual cam chain tensioner eliminates the situation altogether because it does not use oil pressure for anything so it is not any looser at start- up than it is when running. So really the only reason to bother with a manual CCT IMO is if the noise is bothersome, or if it results in some other horrible side effect such as a Harley owner suggesting you get that clanking fixed.... 

Brian

My '08 with 126,000km on it definitely has the rattle at start-up.  Mostly it stops after 1-2 seconds or if I give the throttle a little blip.  Wondering if I need to look at replacing it given my mileage?  It definitely does quit rattling quickly so is there anything wrong with it?

[Rhino]

Good feed back. No I never checked the oil pressure and I will look into it. And I do use Rotella T6 5w40. And I moved to Austin last year. But I did have the problem in CO. My bike always seems louder on the start up rattle than other C14's. I don't always use Rotella, I have put Mobile MC 10w40 in and don't remember any difference with the Mobile 1. It could very well be idle oil pressure. But in any case, I still think the ratchet mechanism on the OEM CCT is woefully inadequate. As you well know, there is almost 1/8" between the teeth and another 1/8" slot for the spring. Way too much slop IMO. If the ratchet were properly functioning, than at high oil pressure at high RPM, it should lock tight enough for no rattle to occur at 0 oil pressure.

Did you by chance check the oil pressure on the bike, at idle and then higher RPMs? The reason I ask is that what you are describing sounds like insufficient hydraulic (oil in this case) pressure to force the CCT out (not that kind of 'out', just forward). If you do have low oil pressure a manual CCT would certainly cure the cam chain rattle but the more serious situation will go merrily along- low oil pressure. Just a thought but it would be something I would check or have checked given your symptoms; the OEM CCT requires a certain amount of oil pressure to actually work. It is fairly easy to do if you have a pressure gauge and <should> be reasonable in cost to have done by a mechanic / dealer.

And of course, the viscosity of the oil you are using and the ambient temp., which in turn affects the running temp. of the bike, all make a difference. So perhaps if you were using a 5W- XX or even a 10W- XX weight oil and you are in a very hot environment, that alone might cause low enough oil pressure at idle even if everything is otherwise perfect.

Way back in the olden days, early Honda 750 Fours (K1 and K3s as I remember) used to do that a lot- generate very low oil pressure at idle. So much so that after a few years and miles, the oil light would come on whenever the bike was idling and then stutter and flash its way to off as the engine's RPMs picked up. I do not know what the oil pressure light point was on the Hondas but on older GMs it was 4 PSI.... which really is pretty low. That said, I never heard of a 750 four actually 'wearing out' or having any serious internal problem (Easy Boys!).

Brian

[B.D.F.]

Yes, agreed- there is far too much room for the plunger to 'back up' when there is no oil pressure. The teeth on the ratchet themselves are pretty fine and I believe fully close enough not to allow the rattle but the snap ring wire has 3/16" worth of movement and that is the root cause of all the noise.





This is how far the plunger can be pushed back due to the wide slot the lock ring rides within.



The slot can be seen in the CCT body at the left of the above photo. Making that 1/2 the size that it is would cure the problem IMO.



Brian

Good feed back. No I never checked the oil pressure and I will look into it. And I do use Rotella T6 5w40. And I moved to Austin last year. But I did have the problem in CO. My bike always seems louder on the start up rattle than other C14's. I don't always use Rotella, I have put Mobile MC 10w40 in and don't remember any difference with the Mobile 1. It could very well be idle oil pressure. But in any case, I still think the ratchet mechanism on the OEM CCT is woefully inadequate. As you well know, there is almost 1/8" between the teeth and another 1/8" slot for the spring. Way too much slop IMO. If the ratchet were properly functioning, than at high oil pressure at high RPM, it should lock tight enough for no rattle to occur at 0 oil pressure.