URGENT - Battery/Charging problem ???

[vannooch]

Has anyone here fun into this problem?  There is a fellow Concours rider having problems out on the road.

http://zzrbikes.com/threads/82077-URGENT-Battery-Charging-problem

[chap]

My guess would be a shorted battery. If he can disconnect his battery and boost the bike should keep running from Alternator power. if it wont maybe the regulator is bad, and possibly the alternator. I am not sure if there is a specific fuse in the alternator field cct, Hopefully he gets it figured out. maybe a member is close by and can go and help.

[VirginiaJim]

Yep...SBD...Sudden Battery Death.  I've had it happen to me but not on the C14.  Replace the battery.

[reesedp]

When my battery shorted internally I saw CRAZY things happen upon the pressing of the go button!!  Windshield moved, gauges tweaked out, and I'm pretty sure I saw part of the movie "Ghost" playing on the display!  I think it was the pottery scene...

[vannooch]

Haven't heard what the outcome was as of yet, but the general consensus was that the battery was the issue, will let you know.

[MAN OF BLUES]

Haven't heard what the outcome was as of yet, but the general consensus was that the battery was the issue, will let you know.

I'm not joining that forum just to giva an answer, so if you could go there for me, tell all the folks that they need to LOAD test the battery...an internal break in the tie bars will give you 12+ volts, but as soon as you ask the battery to "work" i.e. crank the starter or power something, the break will not carry amperage... thus it won't start....

man, simply swapping batteries with someone would tell him that right off...
lots b/s talk there, and nobody had a real clue. Dealer Tech included.....

[Richard. Wales UK]

I'm not joining that forum just to giva an answer, so if you could go there for me, tell all the folks that they need to LOAD test the battery...an internal break in the tie bars will give you 12+ volts, but as soon as you ask the battery to "work" i.e. crank the starter or power something, the break will not carry amperage... thus it won't start....

man, simply swapping batteries with someone would tell him that right off...
lots b/s talk there, and nobody had a real clue. Dealer Tech included.....

Yep, load test is the way to go, or just measure the voltage then turn stuff on / hit the starter, if the voltage crashes then the battery has had it.
The other thing that worried me was the suggestion to run the bike without a battery, this is a bad idea, and could destroy the regulator.

Richard

[Daytona_Mike]

The other thing that worried me was the suggestion to run the bike without a battery, this is a bad idea, and could destroy the regulator.

Richard

I have heard this before but do not understand why this could be.  We always did this on cars as a test and never ever heard of this issue and how would that differ form say boosting the bike and the battery was open internally, that would be exactly the same as no battery. A fully charged battery draws no load and that would be the same as 'no battery'. There is no such thing as a  'battery presence sense circuit' therefore I am not buying it just yet.
I am open to  listening as to how 'no battery' can hurt  the mosfet. I have run  bikes  before with battery unhooked and saw no increase in heat from the regulator. I did a mosfet conversion on my KLR650 and ran it with no battery and saw a drop in temperature.
If I had a battery that was 'shorted' internally as opposed to 'open' internally I would prefer to run the bike without the battery to get it somewhere as that would be much easier and better on  the regulator. A dead battery that cannot be charged is much worse on a regulator than 'no battery'.
 

[Richard. Wales UK]

I have heard this before but do not understand why this could be.  We always did this on cars as a test and never ever heard of this issue and how would that differ form say boosting the bike and the battery was open internally, that would be exactly the same as no battery. A fully charged battery draws no load and that would be the same as 'no battery'. There is no such thing as a  'battery presence sense circuit' therefore I am not buying it just yet.
I am open to  listening as to how 'no battery' can hurt  the mosfet. I have run  bikes  before with battery unhooked and saw no increase in heat from the regulator. I did a mosfet conversion on my KLR650 and ran it with no battery and saw a drop in temperature.
If I had a battery that was 'shorted' internally as opposed to 'open' internally I would prefer to run the bike without the battery to get it somewhere as that would be much easier and better on  the regulator. A dead battery that cannot be charged is much worse on a regulator than 'no battery'.

My understanding is its one of those things you will get away with 90% of the time, but the 10% can get expensive, with blown regulators or main engine control ECU etc.
The problems are the battery is relied on by the charging system to smooth the DC output, but the worse problem is the huge spike that may occur at the moment you disconnect the battery with the engine running. Suddenly the system goes from supplying lots of current to very little, and the spike caused in the windings of the alternator can damage things.

Quick search found: -
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump  -  this explains it far more elegantly than me.

http://www.troubleshooters.com/dont_disconnect_battery.htm

It all boils down to "how lucky do you feel"?

Richard

[chap]

My understanding is its one of those things you will get away with 90% of the time, but the 10% can get expensive, with blown regulators or main engine control ECU etc.
The problems are the battery is relied on by the charging system to smooth the DC output, but the worse problem is the huge spike that may occur at the moment you disconnect the battery with the engine running. Suddenly the system goes from supplying lots of current to very little, and the spike caused in the windings of the alternator can damage things.

Quick search found: -
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump  -  this explains it far more elegantly than me.

http://www.troubleshooters.com/dont_disconnect_battery.htm

It all boils down to "how lucky do you feel"?

Richard

I was talking about having the battery disconnected before startup. I can certainly see your point about discnnecting while running. I think with modern alternators etc they put out pretty good DC without the battery to smooth it. But it is advice well received. I'd like to know more about the risks, before I cause any problems.

[Daytona_Mike]

I was talking about having the battery disconnected before startup. I can certainly see your point about discnnecting while running. I think with modern alternators etc they put out pretty good DC without the battery to smooth it. But it is advice well received. I'd like to know more about the risks, before I cause any problems.

I agree about knowing the risks and I read both articles (Steve Litt? a computer programmer? Ok.) and I am still not totally  convinced but certainly more informed. I do recommend caution but also on occasion I require the ability to do  diagnostic testing. Boost the bike with no battery, I still see no harm in that in that. I would rather boost with a dead battery disconnected , check the voltage and then connect a suspect battery while running and check the voltage again. I never heard of a battery smoothing out  current or voltage spikes before. It is not a fast acting capacitor.
I too do not want to ruin anything especially  on someone else's vehicle. Next time I will just shut the engine off before disconnecting or reconnecting the battery just to be safe.