Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: oldsmoboat on July 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
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It gets in the triple digits where I live. Stopped at lights can be brutal with the heat coming off the engine.
Do the coolants or additives that supposedly lower the temp actually work?
It's time for a coolant change anyway.
TIA
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IMO - Temp range on thermostat has more to do with it than any additive.
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IMO - Temp range on thermostat has more to do with it than any additive.
What are you guys in hot climates running?
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Brian Snowberg's heat shields.
sorry, don't have a link, will dig a round to see if I can find it and post it.......
bpsnow AT hotmail DOT com Photo's: http://pets.webshots.com/album/562655840AQZjvN (http://pets.webshots.com/album/562655840AQZjvN)
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It gets in the triple digits where I live. Stopped at lights can be brutal with the heat coming off the engine.
Do the coolants or additives that supposedly lower the temp actually work?
It's time for a coolant change anyway.
TIA
When the ambient temps are in the triple digits there is NOTHING that will save you from getting roasted at traffic lights....
That being said there are some "Snake Oil" additives that can improve the transference of heat into the coolant but engine temps will ultimately be controlled by the T-Stat and the overall effectiveness of the cooling fan. In the end your money will be ill spent as the Concours cooling system is more than adequate for the motor otherwise it would be boiling over and/or overheating.
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Straight water cools better than antifreeze. Boils at lower temp though.
Water Wetter is supposed to help water cool even better.
I don't know if it is possible to run less than 50% and still get good life out of water pump because antifreeze also lubricates. I'm guessing 40% would be ok.
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Probably time to do a search on SiSF's coolant recipe. I've tried 'Engine Ice' which is one of the high dollar special coolants -- not nearly as effective as water with water wetter.
I'm going to take issue with Tony's assertion that the cooling system is "more than adequate". I live in Orlando, and in the summer the only way I know to keep from overheating -- and I mean all coolant puking out, motor trouble overheating -- is to turn the key off and back on at intersections. That shuts off the motor and the headlight, but leaves the tail lights on.
One of these days I'll find a shop to make a custom radiator with more capacity -- and not charge B-2 development costs to do so. No such luck so far.
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It sounds like you might have a cooling issue. I have run around in San Antonio doing stop lights with temps over 100° and never had a problem.
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When the ambient temps are in the triple digits there is NOTHING that will save you from getting roasted at traffic lights....
That being said there are some "Snake Oil" additives that can improve the transference of heat into the coolant but engine temps will ultimately be controlled by the T-Stat and the overall effectiveness of the cooling fan. In the end your money will be ill spent as the Concours cooling system is more than adequate for the motor otherwise it would be boiling over and/or overheating.
That heat you feel is the cooling system doing it's job. When the fan kicks on that is a good thing also. Saves the cooling system from boiling over!!
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I live in central FLA, My temp gauge sometimes goes just a hair past the middle, and that's it.
195* thermostat, Napa Echlin #130 fan switch, switches on and off about 10* lower.
This combo works for me.
Redzg, is you fan working, and are the blades good?(i.e., not melted)
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Probably time to do a search on SiSF's coolant recipe. I've tried 'Engine Ice' which is one of the high dollar special coolants -- not nearly as effective as water with water wetter.
I'm going to take issue with Tony's assertion that the cooling system is "more than adequate". I live in Orlando, and in the summer the only way I know to keep from overheating -- and I mean all coolant puking out, motor trouble overheating -- is to turn the key off and back on at intersections. That shuts off the motor and the headlight, but leaves the tail lights on.
One of these days I'll find a shop to make a custom radiator with more capacity -- and not charge B-2 development costs to do so. No such luck so far.
I think you might have a problem. All I have ever done is change my coolant with 50/50 mix of coolant & water every 2 years, as far as I know the thermostat and fan switch are original (1986 60000 km). Never had a problem on the open road or around town during 40C Australian summer. At just to the right of vertical temp needle (say 5/8 of the gauge) the fan starts and that's where the needle stays.
Regards, Russell
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I also have a FZ1 and a c10, both bikes get HOT. both have shields and such to duct heat away but nothing I have tried makes them cool down any different, I have used water wetter its supposed to cool better Blah not for me, engine ice nope its just as hot.
If its hot out the bike is hot too, when cooler the bike keeps you warmer longer :)) it seems a trade off
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Here in Austin, I've had coolant dumping out with what was a reasonably maintained 50/50 system. Of course, that was with extensive idling (trying to keep a battery up). Since then I've changed to what's been called SiSF's Coolant Cocktail. I had doubts about it, so Steve and I discussed it on the old forums, I emailed the guys at RedLine, etc. Gotta say, I don't think the RedLine guys are snake oil sales guys.
I'll say up front I like the stuff. I just get the feeling (no data) I'm cooler with the stuff in than without. Might be all between my ears, but that's ok. It feels cooler there now whatever the reason ;)
How's it work? Mostly it's from changing most of the coolant from anti-freeze (AF) to water (H2O).
NOTE: The numbers in here are from memory. I didn't go look 'em up again. Double check everything. Do your own math. Ask questions if you can't figger it out.
H2O will hold more heat per volume than nearly anything, and it takes and gives it up more easily too.
AF will lower the freeze temperature and increase the boiling temperature depending on how much a percentage of it's in the coolant. Quality AFs also have corrosion inhibiting chemicals in them. These are what make one AF incompatible with another. AF doesn't hold or transfer heat nearly as well as H20. AF is also slippery as hell. 2nd gear, or even 3rd rolling 'burn outs' are difficult to avoid once your rear tire gets wet with the stuff. The bike still has a weird spot in the seat from that . . .
RedLine Water Wetter (RWW) isn't anti-freeze. It's mostly a 'surface tension modifier'. What that means is the bubbles that form inside a normally operating engine, aka steam pockets, are smaller with the lower surface tension. Unlike the snake oil stuff out there, RedLine has data and SHOWS it! They answer questions! RWW also has corrosion inhibiting chemicals in it, replacing or renewing the stuff in the AF. It doesn't take much to protect the entire cooling system.
So what's The Cocktail? SiSF didn't invent it, but he's the most recent to make it popular with Concours riders. Here's my take on it. Look at the table for your fave flavor of AF. Put enough AF in the system to protect from freezing in the coldest conditions you imagine you'd have the bike in. Here in Austin, I don't worry about it since if it's near freezing the bike it in the garage. I put very little if ANY AF in. Then put in the RWW as directed (4oz?). Top off with distilled or at least de-ionized water. It's cheap at the grocery store. DO NOT use tap water, even the 'softened' stuff - maybe unless it passes through an RO filter first ;)
If you need to put more than about 30% AF in, save your money and don't use the RWW. It will still help, but if memory serves it's less than 10F instead of as much as 30F for 0% AF. IMO not worth the extra expense or hassle.
Temp gage runs lower, comes down faster when rolling after getting hot at a light, etc. I think since this mix gives up heat more quickly everything else, including me, has less chance to get hot. Also I think the fan runs for a shorter period until it cools enough to turn off. That helps too.
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Another thought to throw out here is what is the surface condition of your radiator face? Is it clear, free from road goo and bug guts, what about deep down inside is it clear? Simply put if the air can't flow THROUGH the rad it is not going to work efficiently. Even a coat of paint can interfere with heat transfer if applied too thickly. You can also switch out your plastic cooling fan blade for an Alum one from Muzzy (?) it is claimed to flow mo air than the plastic one.
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You could install a toggle switch in the system that bypasses the temp. switch, and when you see your about to get in to a lot of stop and go, just turn the fan on early to help keep the temp. down. HTH JD
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In the 75 or so really hot days a year in Dallas, I would leave the lower fairings and belly pan off the bike. Never had any engine overheating. My cooling system was stock and I just used Peak antifreeze from the auto parts store mixed 50/50 with clean water. The fairings hold the engine, radiator and exhaust heat and vents it right on your legs. The bike never overheated, but the rider sure did any time the traffic stopped. I am told that ceramic coating the inside of the exhaust pipes help, but I never got around to it.
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I have had my pipes ceramic coated -- don't think that helped nearly as much as advertised.
To my mind, I shouldn't have to do anything to keep the gage away from the red -- other than normal maintainence and such, of course. My radiator is clear both inside and out, the fan blade is original and in good shape, the thermostat is proper and functional, and the fan switch operates as it should. None the less, in hot weather sitting at long red lights I can watch the needle climb and climb. If I let it, it will climb into the red, and coolant will begin to puke out the overflow. None of which should happen, if the system were adquate for the ambient conditions.
In every other way, my 2K is a pick of the litter bike. Low vibrations, good power, responded wonderfully to the SiSF exhaust cam gear, etc. Oh, alcohol has caused plugged pilots about three times now, but that's my fault.
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I believe the bike is running normally. Just looking for ideas to cool it down during these hot spells. If the coolant actually cools it by the 40-50 degrees they claim, that would have to make a difference.
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I believe the bike is running normally. Just looking for ideas to cool it down during these hot spells. If the coolant actually cools it by the 40-50 degrees they claim, that would have to make a difference.
Where did you find this 40-50 degree claim? On the water side generally the heat exchange is at most 15 degree between in and out of an engine.
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I have had my pipes ceramic coated -- don't think that helped nearly as much as advertised.
To my mind, I shouldn't have to do anything to keep the gage away from the red -- other than normal maintainence and such, of course. My radiator is clear both inside and out, the fan blade is original and in good shape, the thermostat is proper and functional, and the fan switch operates as it should. None the less, in hot weather sitting at long red lights I can watch the needle climb and climb. If I let it, it will climb into the red, and coolant will begin to puke out the overflow. None of which should happen, if the system were adquate for the ambient conditions.
In every other way, my 2K is a pick of the litter bike. Low vibrations, good power, responded wonderfully to the SiSF exhaust cam gear, etc. Oh, alcohol has caused plugged pilots about three times now, but that's my fault.
Well, something is not right, witness other folks that are OK in hotter temps than here. Have you looked at the cooling fan? they are known to sometimes get melted blades. This would cut down the air flow a bunch. Muzzy makes a metal fan for the C-10...
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Where did you find this 40-50 degree claim? On the water side generally the heat exchange is at most 15 degree between in and out of an engine.
http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/Engine_Ice_High-Performance_Motorcycle_Coolant/web1001459 (http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/Engine_Ice_High-Performance_Motorcycle_Coolant/web1001459)
Engine Ice has been proven to reduces operating temperatures by as much as 50 degrees Fahrenheit
There is also an oil additive, bottom of this page:
http://www.mondellotwister.com/OilingSystem.htm (http://www.mondellotwister.com/OilingSystem.htm)
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Interesting, at 2:48 in the Engine Ice Video, it says May Make Your Engine Run Cooler. I'd like to see an independent test on this.
Oh, what's that wristband he has on? Looks like the type they give you at beer gardens.
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None the less, in hot weather sitting at long red lights I can watch the needle climb and climb. If I let it, it will climb into the red, and coolant will begin to puke out the overflow. None of which should happen, if the system were adquate for the ambient conditions.
Hmmm, I still think something is not right. Check for blockages/restrictions, fuel pump for worn/corroded blades, fuel pump impeller is firmly attached to shaft and not slipping.
In summer I remove the fairing bottom half and belly pan but that's not the answer. At lights you will get hot and engine temp will rise but should not puke coolant.
Regards, Russell
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I have had my pipes ceramic coated -- don't think that helped nearly as much as advertised.
To my mind, I shouldn't have to do anything to keep the gage away from the red -- other than normal maintainence and such, of course. My radiator is clear both inside and out, the fan blade is original and in good shape, the thermostat is proper and functional, and the fan switch operates as it should. None the less, in hot weather sitting at long red lights I can watch the needle climb and climb. If I let it, it will climb into the red, and coolant will begin to puke out the overflow. None of which should happen, if the system were adquate for the ambient conditions.
In every other way, my 2K is a pick of the litter bike. Low vibrations, good power, responded wonderfully to the SiSF exhaust cam gear, etc. Oh, alcohol has caused plugged pilots about three times now, but that's my fault.
You might want to think about replacing your radiator cap. It may not be able to hold the proper pressure.
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... and the fan switch operates as it should. None the less, in hot weather sitting at long red lights I can watch the needle climb and climb. If I let it, it will climb into the red, and coolant will begin to puke out the overflow.
When my fan switch started to go, it did this exact same thing. It was in fact coming on to late so it really couldn't catch up. As soon as I added extra air by driving, the gauge would go down and all was well. Stop again, and it would sometimes spit some out. In the end, it stopped working so I knew what I needed. A new fan switch (from 1991 Honda Civic DX at $13) fixed the problem. You only loose a few onces of coolant when changing it. Even if you don't need it, its inexpensive.
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You might want to think about replacing your radiator cap. It may not be able to hold the proper pressure.
Don you are so right here as the cap is often the most overlooked item in the list as if it looks good it must be good right...... If the cap is not able to retain the proper pressure the coolant will boil over at a much lower temp. Here at work on two sister barges we have pairs of CAT 3516 diesel engines that from new would boil over on shut down; mind you they did not run hot (180ish) they just suffered from boil over at shutdown. On both barges I installed non-standard pressure caps (higher rating) and the boil over is gone. Oddly enough the barges were built ten years apart yet they both still suffered from the same issues.
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To add a purely scientific perspective to this discussion - with no bike experience - the typical rise in pressure inside a pressurized vehicle cooling systems is about 14psi over atmospheric. For pure water that increases the boiling point around 45 degrees...
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system7.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system7.htm)
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html)
A 50/50 antifreeze mix also increases boiling point by about 11 degrees F...
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system3.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system3.htm)
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Yeah, radiator cap. So obvious and so forgotten. Give it a go.
Regards, Russell