Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: jamiemac on June 08, 2012, 06:21:27 PM
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Years ago, I was a pro car tech, with ASE certifications in bakes, chassis, & a master mechanic certification. I learned the ins & outs of brake work through trial & error, plus a lot of great advice from folks wiser than myself. I have been retired from the car repair business for several years, but it was my thing for almost 25.
Our C14 motorcycles, braking system differs from an automobile system in one major way, & that is weight. Other than that difference, almost all on the things that will affect a car system, will affect a bike system. SYSTEM. That is a word that means to me, that all of our bikes brake parts must work together as a whole to function as intended.
Changing the pads to some folks can mean, just removing the old, & installing the new. On a car, this method can work just fine because the parts are much more robust. The rotors are thick & braced with venting vanes between the two halves. The caliper on a car is large, heavy, & usually has an external boot to keep dust & grime from the piston. The pads are larger, & on some cars can be 1/2 inch thick.
Motorcycle rotors are less than 1/4 inch thick, the calipers are small, multi-piston units, & made of aluminum to save weight, & aid in heat dissipation. The pads on our bike are about 5 or 6 mm thick when new.
Insuring that all of the parts that work together on our bikes is therefore, much more important than on a car.
I hope the few details of My brake job can help folks in the future do theirs.
Here is a shot of the new pads next to the worn ones to show the difference.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3334sm.jpg)
Definitely time.
The replacement of pads is deceptively simple, & it would be easy to neglect some steps that will promote better performance on a bike.
#1 The first thing that needs to be done is get the pad anchor pins loose with the proper sized Allen key.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3339smedit.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3337sm.jpg)
#2 After removing the pins, be sure to take reasonable care with the stainless springs that are designed to hold the pads in place to keep them from rattling. The brakes would probably function without the anti rattle hardware, but would make a lot of noise, & wear uneven.
#3 Here is where doing the bikes brakes take the biggest divergence from doing a car. I always take a solution of warm water, & Dawn dish-washing liquid & an old toothbrush to thoroughly clean the sides of each piston. Removal of all of the dirt is necessary. If it doesn't come off, then I recommend replacing the pistons & seals. They aren't that expensive...although there are 8 of each.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3328edit.jpg)
#4 Once the crud is scrubbed from the piston sides that are visible, lightly squirt them with a little brake clean, then use a blue shop towel or paper towel to clean them to a shine.
#5 I find it much easier to work at cleaning the pistons if You take the two larger caliper mounting bolts out, though it probably has to be done to get to the pistons all the way around.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3340edit.jpg)
#6 After getting everything clean, it is very easy to push the pistons back in wit Your thumb. If one is being difficult, then there is probably still dirt on it somewhere.
#7 When the pistons are back in, temporarily remount the calipers on the bike with the bolts just snug enough to hold the caliper in place so You can access the bleeder screw.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3331crop.jpg)
#8 At this point, it is a good idea to pop the cap off of the master cylinder. take a look at the coloration of the fluid. If Your brakes haven't been flushed in a couple of riding seasons, it is a good idea to do that now, along with the clutch system.
#9 Go ahead and fill the master cyl up wit fresh fluid past the full mark, because during the bleeding process, it will drain back down fairly quickly, & you don't want it to get too low. Getting to low could introduce air into the system, & then things become much more difficult without special tools.
#10 When You have the fluid topped off, attach a piece of 1/4 inch OD clear vinyl tubing to the bleeder screw, & place the other end of the tube in a plastic container. I cut the top off of an old windshield washer fluid container for this purpose.
Tubing purchased at Home Depot plumbing dept.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3335sm.jpg)
2 ft piece of tubing attached to bleeder screw
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3330edit.jpg)
Tubing placed into drain container
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3332sm.jpg)
#11 Now it is time to place a 10mm wrench on the bleeder and open it one full turn. Let the fluid drain into the container, & watch the master cylinder as it drains. keep adding fluid to the master cyl as it gets low, and close the bleeder when the fluid is clear again. remember that the brake caliper is aluminum, & so are the threads of the bleeder screw hole. Gorilla style force is not necessary.
#12 Set the cover back on the master cyl to keep out the dirt, and put the screws back in finger tight for safe keeping.
Remember that brake fluid is harmful to paint. I placed painters plastic over the gas tank of My bike. adding fluid to the master cylinder is invariably a messy job, so a little precaution never hurts.
#13 now is time to install the new pads. There is plenty of room with the pistons pushed back in, & BE SURE TO PUT THE BRAKING MATERIAL SIDE TOWARD THE BRAKE ROTOR! I can't stress that last part enough. I have seen that a lot over the years, so don't get distracted. once the pads are in place, replace the stainless hold down hardware. I recommend cleaning the hardware with a brush, so it can be inspected, but it is not necessary for brake function.
#14 It's time to replace the brake pad pins. Again, remember the the threads are aluminum in the pin holes, so use moderate force when replacing the pins. It may be necessary to reach through the brake rotor carrier to hold the opposing brake pad in place, while simultaneously compressing the spring hardware as You insert the pin. Make sure the pin captures the spring hardware, as well as the hole in each brake pad. The pad will fall through the caliper if the pin is not in the hole.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/IMG_3320edit.jpg)
#15 Once all the pads are installed, make sure the master cylinder is filled to the high indicator, & no further. Overfilling the master could lead to the front brakes sticking in the applied position, leading to premature wear & brake fade.
#16 Now that the pads are installed, check that the caliper mounting bolts are loose enough to allow movement of the calipers, but tight enough that they don't flop around. Allowing this movement will let the calipers center themselves as you pump out the pistons.
#17 Slowly pump the pistons out while keeping an eye on the fluid level. once brake pressure has built up, & the pads are in contact with the rotors, make sure the master cylinder is level, & check the fluid level. If some is needed, fill to the full line, & replace the master cylinder cover, then secure the hold down screws. Remember that the fluid reservoir is plastic so be careful.
#18, now go ahead & tighten up the caliper mount bolts. Check to make sure everything is aligned & parallel to the rotor. A good visual inspection is always a fine idea.
#19 The final step is to test ride & do a pad break in. Perform a couple of light stops to make sure everything is working as it should. Then go for a ride & perform some moderate normal stops. After 4 or 5, Your brakes should be good to go.
Now go home & clean up Your mess.
Any questions, I'll be glad to try & answer them.
Hope this helps. Jamie
So Cal Joe brought up a great issue that I should address. My scoot is a 2008 ABS model, but the newer ones with linked brakes will bleed the same way with 1 exception. That is, that the rear master cylinder controls one of the front brakes, therefore, You need to also fill the rear master cylinder when doing the fluid flush. Even if You don't have an linked brake model, You should do the flush on the rear also. Same as the front.
Thanks for the save, Joe. Mac
Bolt torque specs. Front brake pad pins: 13 ft lb. Front brake caliper mounting bolts: 25 ft lb. No locking agent required.
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Good stuff and great pictures. Thanks.
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OK. Got the rest of the pics up in the original post. I sometimes take for granted that folks know what I'm talking about, so if I didn't explain something clearly, or glossed over something anyone has a question about, give Me a holler.
Mac
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wow, great thread. i m about to do the brake job and your thread is right on
thx
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Nice write up :goodpost: :thumbs: ;D
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Pictures all up.
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:goodpost: Very informative with good pics. Thanks. :chugbeer:
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:goodpost: Well written and easy to understand ..... GOOD JOB! :goodpost:
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Most Excellent! :goodpost:
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Thanks for the move to the right spot, Jim.
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Nice! You should be the writer for some of these service manuals.
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Nice! You should be the writer for some of these service manuals.
I agree.
Everything looks so clean. My tubing is old and yellowed. And my containers are filthy with left over fluids from past jobs. And the calipers look so clean.
The camera shots are in focus.
;) :)
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Thanks for the props fellas. I'm just tryin to help out. I have read where folks have had some issues with noise & sticking after a brake job, & I had the same issue myself many years ago, when I did the brakes on My 85 ZL900. They had single piston calipers, but sure enough, the brakes started sticking, & I had to rebuild the calipers. Hoping I can prevent a few folks from having to do that.
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I really appreciate your post and the thorough job you did pics and all. It tells me that it’s time for my pads to go (up front) I did not know how little was too little but mine are about the thickness of yours.
Thanks
Btw I only have 15K on her and don't ride the brakes, are they worn out too soon?
Fred might have some competition!
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Btw I only have 15K on her and don't ride the brakes, are they worn out too soon?
Fred might have some competition!
15 k is about average. I have worn bikes out in 10k, and got 18k out of a set on My old Connie.
No way am I any competition for Fred. His writeups are awesome. I'm mostly a brake guy. Fred's knowledge amazes Me, as does some of the other folks on here. Just hoping I can contribute My little bit of experience.
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Excellent post. I haven't done my own brakes yet, but this gives me the confidence to give it a try. Thanks. :)
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Most excellent tutorial. Certainly worthy of being in the Wiki. That's the kind of stuff that makes this forum great!
Keep up the great posts, even if Brakes are your only specialty. Just an explanation of a procedure with pictures is usually what people need to get the confidence they need to tackle a job.
One word of caution to folks out there is to be careful where they are spraying Brake Cleaner. It is also harmful to paint, even powder coating (like wheels). It's still the best cleaner for de-greasing the brake parts, but just be cautious of where the over spray is going.
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One word of caution to folks out there is to be careful where they are spraying Brake Cleaner. It is also harmful to paint, even powder coating (like wheels). It's still the best cleaner for de-greasing the brake parts, but just be cautious of where the over spray is going.
Definitely worthy of note. Brake clean is tough on paint and powdercoat finishes. It is however, excellent for getting the grease stains out of cloth upholstery. An old mechanics trick of mine, when one of My technicians would pull a dumbass, and get grease on a customers upholstery, was to spray brake clean on a shop towel, and dab at the grease, & it almost always got it out. Did a better job than a professional shampooing.
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Great write up. Just 1 question. When you flush the brake fluid you are using the gravity method right? With the pads out you don't want to pump the lever. On a linked brake system isn't there is a special way to bleed the system?
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Great write up. Just 1 question. When you flush the brake fluid you are using the gravity method right? With the pads out you don't want to pump the lever. On a linked brake system isn't there is a special way to bleed the system?
Yes! Great question, & I'm glad You brought it up.
Flushing the fluid as part of routine maintenance is with the gravity method. It's not advisable to pump the brake lever with the pads out. If it happens by accident, it wouldn't pop the pistons out, but when the lever returns, it would suck air back in the system. Once air is introduced to the system, then a pressure bleeder may be necessary to get the air back out.
On antilock brakes on some cars, You have to go through a special procedure to bleed the brakes. Most of those complicated systems were made by Bosch, & to say they sucked, would be an insult to things that suck.
Our bikes antilock system is of the solenoid type, & thankfully the solenoids are in the open position when not active, so the fluid will drain with no problem. The linked brake system should bleed the same way, although, for the frt caliper that is linked to the rear brake, it's a good idea to check the fluid level in the rear master cylinder.
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Excellent write up! About the only thing I do different is I use brake fluid to clean the pistons and seals. It cleans them and provides a bit of lubrication. Although I may try the dish soap method... A lot less toxic!
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Excellent write up! About the only thing I do different is I use brake fluid to clean the pistons and seals. It cleans them and provides a bit of lubrication. Although I may try the dish soap method... A lot less toxic!
Brake fluid works good for that, but it will strip the paint off the caliper. Brake fluid is water soluble though, just be sure to clean it off fast.
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wow, great thread. i m about to do the brake job and your thread is right on
thx
Thank you for taking the time to do such a great job explaining the process as I am also getting ready to replace mine.
Thx
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Previous bikes have called for copper grease on the guide pins and the back sides of the brake pad (toward the pistons), C14 shop manual does not. Is this a good practice anyway?
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I've always applied a thin coat of anti-seize on all my brakes' guide pins. I have a real (mental) issue with dissimilar meatls in a hostile environment...
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Thanks for the great post and pictures. I am sure this will help all the diy guys!!!
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Previous bikes have called for copper grease on the guide pins and the back sides of the brake pad (toward the pistons), C14 shop manual does not. Is this a good practice anyway?
It doesn't harm anything. I prefer not to, but other folks do. Just personal preference.
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Update on the brake performance after 5000 miles. EBC pads are doing great. Very progressive feel, & fantastic stopping power. No noise above normal friction noise, & because of the thorough scrubbing of the piston, My calipers are retracting normally with no drag. The EBC pads are definitely a quality item.
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On antilock brakes on some cars, You have to go through a special procedure to bleed the brakes. Most of those complicated systems were made by Bosch, & to say they sucked, would be an insult to things that suck.
Our bikes antilock system is of the solenoid type, & thankfully the solenoids are in the open position when not active, so the fluid will drain with no problem. The linked brake system should bleed the dame way, although, for the frt caliper that is linked to the rear brake, it's a good idea to check the fluid level in the rear master cylinder.
- thanks for that. How did you confirm that the abs on the c14 does not need a special procedure applied to the abs pump to enable bleeding ?
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- thanks for that. How did you confirm that the abs on the c14 does not need a special procedure applied to the abs pump to enable bleeding ?
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Logic. Accumulator type ABS systems are much too large & cumbersome to use on a motorcycle. There would be no place to put it, therefore, logic dictates it is a solenoid type. They are pretty much all the same.
Heheh...Also, it's in the service manual. ;D
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Hello Jamie,
Thanks for that DETAILED brake installation and PICTURES TOO.
I have a 2009 C14 ABS.I replaced the disks in the front with EBC ones and after 4-5000 miles I am experiecing shuddering when I aplly the front brake and keep the pressure on the lever constant. Some say that the stock pads are causing that so I've replace them too. When I installed the disks there was a spacer that goes between the disk and thw wheel. Replacing the stock disks with aftermarket EBC ones do I have to leave the spacer there too???
The reason I am asking is because the Repair BOOK sais that: " the air gap between the Sensor and the wheel speed sensor disc should be 0.7-0.9 mm and I don't have that air gap with the sensor mouted , only at the sensor seat(the hole where the senson goes) and it is about 0.7 only.
Do you have any suggestions??? THANK YOU in advance for any of ideas
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Hello Jamie,
Thanks for that DETAILED brake installation and PICTURES TOO.
I have a 2009 C14 ABS.I replaced the disks in the front with EBC ones and after 4-5000 miles I am experiecing shuddering when I aplly the front brake and keep the pressure on the lever constant. Some say that the stock pads are causing that so I've replace them too. When I installed the disks there was a spacer that goes between the disk and thw wheel. Replacing the stock disks with aftermarket EBC ones do I have to leave the spacer there too???
The reason I am asking is because the Repair BOOK sais that: " the air gap between the Sensor and the wheel speed sensor disc should be 0.7-0.9 mm and I don't have that air gap with the sensor mouted , only at the sensor seat(the hole where the senson goes) and it is about 0.7 only.
Do you have any suggestions??? THANK YOU in advance for any of ideas
I haven't used the EBC rotors yet, but there is at least one person on the forum that has, because I remember reading about his install. I do believe he left the spacer out, but as a measure of safety, I would search for the post about EBC rotors. When you find Him, I would send Him a message, just to make sure. My memory isn't 100% on it.
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Excellent write up! About the only thing I do different is I use brake fluid to clean the pistons and seals. It cleans them and provides a bit of lubrication. Although I may try the dish soap method... A lot less toxic!
Brake fluid works good for that, but it will strip the paint off the caliper. Brake fluid is water soluble though, just be sure to clean it off fast.
nice writeup Jamie, :thumbs:
but I have to add a word of caution here about using brake fluid for anything other than filling the sealed brake system....
Never use brake fluid to lubricate and or clean the brake pistons unless you intend to completly disassemble, clean, and re-assemble the parts in a clean and dry state. You can use it as an assist if you are "polishing" the pistons to remove pits and corrosion, but you must compleltly clean the parts using Brake-Kleen afterwards.....never use it as an assembly lube.
Brakefluid is hydgrophobic, and will suck up moisture, and hold it wherever it exists, therefore if you lube the piston and seals, the area that is exposed to the environment WILL corrode, invisibly inside the piston /bore that you cannot see on the outboard side of the sealed cavity.
not good.
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nice writeup Jamie, :thumbs:
but I have to add a word of caution here about using brake fluid for anything other than filling the sealed brake system....
Never use brake fluid to lubricate and or clean the brake pistons unless you intend to completly disassemble, clean, and re-assemble the parts in a clean and dry state. You can use it as an assist if you are "polishing" the pistons to remove pits and corrosion, but you must compleltly clean the parts using Brake-Kleen afterwards.....never use it as an assembly lube.
Brakefluid is hydgrophobic, and will suck up moisture, and hold it wherever it exists, therefore if you lube the piston and seals, the area that is exposed to the environment WILL corrode, invisibly inside the piston /bore that you cannot see on the outboard side of the sealed cavity.
not good.
Hey MOB, you mean hygroscopic right? ;)
I doubt that the brake fluid has any fear of water...
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nice writeup Jamie, :thumbs:
but I have to add a word of caution here about using brake fluid for anything other than filling the sealed brake system....
Never use brake fluid to lubricate and or clean the brake pistons unless you intend to completly disassemble, clean, and re-assemble the parts in a clean and dry state. You can use it as an assist if you are "polishing" the pistons to remove pits and corrosion, but you must compleltly clean the parts using Brake-Kleen afterwards.....never use it as an assembly lube.
Brakefluid is hydgrophobic, and will suck up moisture, and hold it wherever it exists, therefore if you lube the piston and seals, the area that is exposed to the environment WILL corrode, invisibly inside the piston /bore that you cannot see on the outboard side of the sealed cavity.
not good.
Definitely a good post. Thanks for the additional info!
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Hey MOB, you mean hygroscopic right? ;)
I doubt that the brake fluid has any fear of water...
Or has rabies! LOL ;D
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I too have expirencing some shudder when i apply front brake. On another website , COG Grumpy Goat talked about using a 10 mm allen and brake cleaner to free up the Rivets that hold the disc to the carrier. It seems that they are spring loaded. I did this,and my front brakes are great now and I have minimal shudder. Its 5 times better than before and it took all off 30 minutes to do.
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I too have expirencing some shudder when i apply front brake. On another website , COG Grumpy Goat talked about using a 10 mm allen and brake cleaner to free up the Rivets that hold the disc to the carrier. It seems that they are spring loaded. I did this,and my front brakes are great now and I have minimal shudder. Its 5 times better than before and it took all off 30 minutes to do.
Cool post! Great info.
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My EBC brakes now have about 7K miles on them now. Still working as good or better than new. No brake dragging when moving the bike around in the driveway. Cleaning those brake pistons is important.
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Reading your post and I decided better check my EBC pads after about 15K. Good thing I did as the pads were worn pretty much to their service limit. Cleaned pistons and calipers per your instructions and installed new EBC pads and ready to go. Thanks for the post and the wake up call.
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Excellent! Glad it went well for You.
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Just used this for my first pad change at 25k! Wonderful write up. The pads shuddered just before coming to a complete stop, but only for about 6 or 7 stops. Now they seem to be perfect. Have to go buy the 12 year old a new toothbrush though...
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Just used this for my first pad change at 25k! Wonderful write up. The pads shuddered just before coming to a complete stop, but only for about 6 or 7 stops. Now they seem to be perfect. Have to go buy the 12 year old a new toothbrush though...
Na, it'll clean up. I bet he doesn't even notice. ;)
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An update to this topic, as it seems to be relevant to some issues a fellow member is experiencing. My EBC pads are upwards of 12K miles, and still have some life left. After experiencing some antilock issues, I can confirm, the antilock unit is a solenoid type, and although not meant to be serviceable, it can be repaired, in a limited fashion. Hope the pics and info here helps out.
Mac.