Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Beamer on June 05, 2012, 07:28:41 AM
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I've loved my 09 ABS since it was new, the engine is smooth and strong everywhere in it's power, other than right off idle.
I was wondering what a procedure might be to check / verify a throttle position sensor setting / setup on the throttle bodies. My bike just feels like the flies are not totally in tune with the throttle.
Small, tight, rolling corners in low gears it is very hard to roll on the power from a closed throttle setting.
Things feel better when I have the throttle cables adjusted with zero slop and almost tight enough to hang the throttle, thus leading me to believe that the ECU is just opening the flies slightly late vs what I am doing with the throttle.
In a perfect world yes I would like to just eliminate the flies all-together (with a Fly-Ectomy or Guhl re-flash) but that is just going to have to wait until I can justify spending the funds on something that should function correctly / be calibrated correctly from the factory.
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What is your engine idle speed (after the engine is warmed up)?
If it'd below 1200 RPM, adjust it up. There's an adjustment knob on the end of a cable near (above) the left foot peg.
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Have a look at this.
G2 Throttle Tamer
http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html (http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html) (free shipping right now too)
(http://www.g2ergo.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/2078868b05b307ba62a74538af597e04/t/a/tamer_1_6.jpg)
Lots of us have installed these and for me it made a good bit of difference. It takes care of the 'throttle snatch' for the most part.
G2 Tamer Tube by G2 Ergonomics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r6W62-Ugts#ws)
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try downshifting before the turn so your in the correct gear and it will roll out just fine.
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try downshifting before the turn so your in the correct gear and it will roll out just fine.
I am, it is just the un-forseen that is encountered that would require someone to adjust (a pot hole that might need one to let off and go wider / tighter in the middle of the turn or for example someone stepping off of a curb).
It just seems near impossible to try and run anywhere between Idle and 2000rpm.
Idle is right on between 1100-1200rpm
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For grins and giggles bump it up to 1250. I think you will be pleased with the results. Maintaining the air velocity helps keep things moving.
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i am never riding between idle and 2k rpm, dont know why you would. gd luk.
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i am never riding between idle and 2k rpm, dont know why you would. gd luk.
Living in the suburbs of Minneapolis, riding to and from work I have to spend some time in tight traffic, tight urban streets.
Back to my original question. I am assuming there is not way to verify / calibrate a throttle position sensor?
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Barring all the suggestions above (which actually work quite well), you could also get a throttle sync done. Messing with the throttle sensor adjustment may do more harm than good (seen at least one instance of that by a well meaning Kwak tech). However, input voltage to the sensor from my manual should be 4.75-5.25v.
Sensor is within spec if the output is .63v at idle and 3.91v at full throttle. Idle speed is spec'd at 1100rpm for this test. Resistance test if 4-6k ohms. I would suggest getting a manual if you wish to delve into the nether regions of the bike to do this. I don't recommend messing with it but it's your bike.
From the manual and I quote 'Do not remove or adjust the main throttle sensor. It has been adjusted and set with precision at the factory.' That leads me to believe to give it the sign of the cross and back away.
So long story short.....no.
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i am never riding between idle and 2k rpm, dont know why you would. gd luk.
Indeed. The only time the bike should ever be "riding" between idle and 2K rpm is in first gear, just taking off or maybe creeping in VERY slow traffic. The bike has no power at all in any other gear in that low an RPM.
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dude im sensing its your riding style thats the problem. downshift and raise those rpms, this engine isnt happy unless its over 2500k rpm . this isnt a moped. no offense.
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Bike Cornering Bible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWH_QiXw5n4#)
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I have the same issue in very tight corners that demand very low speed.....I bumped up my idle some adjusted my throttle cables all of which seemed to have helped somewhat...I think I will look into the tamer if I can install it on my 10 with the heated grips. Now entering such corners at higher RPM no.
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Thru my 16 years and 150,000+ miles of riding I have had the privilege to own 6 street motorcycles of my own (along with countless other dirt bikes, ATVs, snowmobiles, etc....) and though I wouldn't consider myself a Kenny Roberts, I would say I am above average on riding skills. Of my previous bikes, none have had this kind of "jerk" or snap when coming off of a closed throttle position.
My reasoning for asking the question is to verify that the machine itself is functioning correctly, so I was looking for some technical information on how everything could be verified prior to considering something is actually "wrong".
I'll be quite honest in the fact that I don't ride around looking at the tach, so I am guessing the RPM level is around 2000rpm. When I ride, my eyes are forward looking at the end of the corners and not 3 feet in front of the bike, but given the poor overall condition of the roads here in Minnesota, you have to make changes and correct mid turn. I haven't had the privilege to memorize every corner within 100 miles of where I live, so sometimes the commitment made to the corner has to be changed, because more often then not there is a pot hole, crack, or length of highway crack-patch that I'd rather not risk crashing over, so correction is required.
I am actually suspect that the ECU is unable to hole the flies at a low throttle position, thus leaving a "gap" in which one can actually modulate the throttle in a position in which the flies are non-functional. Several of the threads I have read about people removing the flies / Guhl flash have actually said this phenomenon goes away. Thus leading me to believe that there might be something to the theory. It is also why a different cam profile on the throttle tube could improve it or correct it.
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So CAL JOE excellent video!!!! now that i have the correct understanding of what im doing it will be easier to explain it to others. The weight ransfer to the rear of the bike to increase contact patch and tighten the turn by increasing throttle was especially helpful to understand. i always felt these things but never understood the physics of them . I Found i was doing some things wrong like focusing where i dont want to go and leaning over too far and too late.
i want to get the bike out now and go for a run .
thanks bro!
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Beamer
i dont know bro , i dont understand your problem . maybe its because i ride more aggressively , i dont know , good luck .
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I have not had much of an issue with throttle response as you have described, and what little existed went away with the cable adjust, and TB synch. The Guhl reflash is nice as well, but was not needed to fix the issue you seem to be having.
Without piling on, I would have to suggest that if you are rolling off the throttle regularly in mid-corner, you might want to re-consider your riding techniques. Whether you are over-running your sightlines or letting your SR's kick in, it doesn't seem to be working well for you. You could also use the friction zone to control the speed instead of the throttle, but that is perhaps more of a band-aid than a cure. I still do not consider myself much of a rider, but I had over 150k and 15 years of riding in before I began to really understand how bikes worked and how to start correcting all the bad habits I had accumulated.
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The TB sync is what my original question was about. If anyone had a procedure for it and / or a throttle position sensor calibration procedure.
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The TB sync procedure is in the manual. Buy one for your bike year. There is no sanctified adjustment for the throttle sensor.
I don't think anyone here has posted a DIY thread on the TB Procedure. There's a guy named Fred on the 'other' forum that sells DVDs on the maint procedure. He recommends the manual as well along with his videos, which are quite good. I have them and along with the manual are very valuable to me.
Threads I found on TB sync using Search... (By golly gee it does work....I'll have to tell Rick.)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2672.45 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2672.45)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4257.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4257.0)
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Thanks Jim, I was going to go searching for those myself (doing a sync now) . You just saved me the trouble.
:)
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Small, tight, rolling corners in low gears it is very hard to roll on the power from a closed throttle setting.
Yes I have been riding for ages and experienced the same thing with my CBR929 and my C-14. Research tells me that it's a characteristic of EFI. These are the 2 first EFI bikes that I have owned. Adjusting the cables is a good start. Bump the idle to 1200. The G2 Throttle Tamer made a big improvement. I did these things to my C-14 but not the CBR929. I did install a Power Commander on the 929 and it fixed the problem. I did the same with the C-14. With the Power Commander and the other fixes it works very smoothly and predictable from throttle closed to partial throttle.
So CAL JOE excellent video!!!!
Indeed! I have the book mentioned in the video. I also took a 2 day class by Keith Code (guy in the video). It was at the Streets of Willow Springs track (also in the video). I have done a lot of MX racing and street riding but learned a ton at the class. I did it with my 929 and will do do the same with my C-14. Highly recommended.
Mark
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Have a look at this.
G2 Throttle Tamer
http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html (http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html) (free shipping right now too)
I try so hard to understand this "throttle tamer" phenomenon. Compared to the ZX4 and track bikes I've had, the C14 touts the tamest throttle I've ever known.
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I try so hard to understand this "throttle tamer" phenomenon. Compared to the ZX4 and track bikes I've had, the C14 touts the tamest throttle I've ever known.
Try harder.
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I try so hard to understand this "throttle tamer" phenomenon. Compared to the ZX4 and track bikes I've had, the C14 touts the tamest throttle I've ever known.
That's just the Mad Power of KPASS that has taken over you Steve. It leaves very little room to understand the things that others can due to it's Mad Power. :o ::) 8) ;D
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That's just the Mad Power of KPASS that has taken over you Steve. It leaves very little room to understand the things that others can due to it's Mad Power. :o ::) 8) ;D
Thanks for helping me understand!
I should've known that mad pow-ah came into this thing somehow, all my other bikes have always lacked it (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/iconhammer.gif)
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I was skeptical about the throttle tamer until I tried it. From mile 1 I noticed a speed control issue
taking off from a stop and making a 90 degree turn such as at an intersection with a stop sign or straight ahead in slow traffic. A line of cars will want to take off slower than a bike wants to go - a bike needs a little speed to balance smoothly, a car don't care. On all my other bikes I used the clutch friction zone but for some reason my C14 does not like its clutch slipped. I defintely have to use a different clutch tecnique. I never considered this a problem, just a adjustment I need to make between different bikes I regularly ride. (I have to adjust my braking technique also because the C14 brakes are so much better)
Removing the flies did not change this low speed issue but the throttle tamer did help it. I also notice that parking lot meanuoevers and U-turns are easier. BTW I have 40 years and 375000 miles experience but I still keep learning how to ride better every day.
Speaking of friction zone I was watching Martin Cardenas dominate the last AMA race and Ralph Shaheen wondered why he was able to brake so much more smoothly than the next two closest contenders. I thought it was very interesting that Scott Russell's response was that it was superior clutch control. I don't seem to hear much about it but maybe clutch control can be as important as throttle and braking.
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:goodpost:
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Helped me understand, thanks lather
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Whoa dudes! I'll get the big head ;)
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Have a look at this.
G2 Throttle Tamer
http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html (http://www.g2ergo.com/g2-tamer-throttle-tubes-1.html) (free shipping right now too)
(http://www.g2ergo.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/2078868b05b307ba62a74538af597e04/t/a/tamer_1_6.jpg)
Lots of us have installed these and for me it made a good bit of difference. It takes care of the 'throttle snatch' for the most part.
G2 Tamer Tube by G2 Ergonomics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r6W62-Ugts#ws)
Worth 2x what I paid for it. Should be OEM part.
Barry
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Speaking of friction zone I was watching Martin Cardenas dominate the last AMA race and Ralph Shaheen wondered why he was able to brake so much more smoothly than the next two closest contenders. I thought it was very interesting that Scott Russell's response was that it was superior clutch control. I don't seem to hear much about it but maybe clutch control can be as important as throttle and braking.
Scott knows his stuff. Clutch control is a hugely overlooked portion of the rider tool kit that most non-racers overlook, based on conversations and what I read on forums.
YMMV,
Barry
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This is a common problem with many bikes, Yamaha FZ bikes were notorious for this and my BMW RR is also a PIA. My '09 Connie did it as well until I tuned it out. Old flat-slide racing carbs were this way as well. The change to vacuum slides fixed this.
What your experiencing is the transition from idle mixture to acceleration mixture mapping. This is a problem with VERY small throttle openings and can be "jerky" when you need fine throttle control.
I suspect that the connie needs to be programmed with more set-points closer together right at small throttle openings but this would require more memory and a complete re-design of the ECU. Another words "more sensitivity".
The only way I got rid of it was by leaning out that area with my PC5 which lessened the initial hit when first opening the throttle.
So no, you're not imagining this problem, it's that you have a very high awareness level and want finesse with the throttle!
Fretka
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The ST1300 is horrible in low/off idle acceleration. Those guys use a Fuel Pressure Regulator to solve the problem along with a Throttle Tamer. I did the same as several have suggested, good cable adjustment/lube and added the Tamer. Definitely helped.
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BTW.... there is a sub-function in the PC 5 called "accelerator pump" that will just about guarantee to make this precise problem WORSE!
I suggest to leave that off.
F.
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My 2007 VFR800 was the snatchiest throttle I have ever dealt with. My fix for it was a fuel pressure regulator from the European Fireblade that runs at a higher PSI (35 to 46 if I remember right). The theory is that there is a tad more fuel coming out of the injectors than the bike is programed for therefore smoothing the transition. Kind of like altering the latency of the injectors by way of programming. It did help a bit. The carbed SV650 I used to have had a very smooth transition, I imagine that with modern FI bikes it boils down to programming. Perhaps the ZX-14 runs a higher pressure regulator that is compatible with the connie's engine?
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I found two things that help with controlling the bike at low speeds, in that somewhat troublesome 1000-2000 rpm area:
1. eliminate gas cable play --> this allows for more predictability on the throttle response
2. mild use the rear brake (I have an '08, so no linked brakes), which pre-loads the drive train and helps with the weight transfer in slow, tight turns.
A better solution has been the PCV, but as you say: the vehicle should work glitch-free from factory.
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Ran the bike around today and i understand your problem now. yes it is annoying . touchy throttle in turns makes it tough to be smooth.
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Ive tried changing how I ride some, putting allot of emphasis on being in the right gear before the corner and being on the gas before the corner. Works fine out in the open road, but for situations like pulling into the alley behind my garage, pulling into parking lots off of a busy street, etc...... you can't avoid it. Just worried about catching the "snap" at the wrong time and dumping the bike.
I found you can duplicate it at 4000+ rpm now when downshifting prior to the corner and having to come back on the gas after letting the clutch out. Thus far the only real solution on how to correct it is to get into the right gear, and then slip the clutch some when letting the clutch out.
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I have the same issues with mine, especially on downhill switchbacks (the 10mph kind). Because 1st gear is so tall, and the deceleration entering the turn causes the drive train slop to be at max, you really have to be careful when you start rolling on the throttle mid turn. That sudden jolt almost caused mine to jump off the outside of the turn.
Also on mine, ECO mode makes it much, much worse.
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I have the same issues with mine, especially on downhill switchbacks (the 10mph kind). Because 1st gear is so tall, and the deceleration entering the turn causes the drive train slop to be at max, you really have to be careful when you start rolling on the throttle mid turn. That sudden jolt almost caused mine to jump off the outside of the turn.
Also on mine, ECO mode makes it much, much worse.
try the rear brake trick, it helps (I don't know with the linked brakes, but with mine it helps).
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try the rear brake trick, it helps (I don't know with the linked brakes, but with mine it helps).
The link breakes (2010-12) are un-linked at speeds below 12 mph.
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With TRACTION CONTROL just turn it WFO coming out of turns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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My 2007 VFR800 was the snatchiest throttle I have ever dealt with. My fix for it was a fuel pressure regulator from the European Fireblade that runs at a higher PSI (35 to 46 if I remember right). The theory is that there is a tad more fuel coming out of the injectors than the bike is programed for therefore smoothing the transition. Kind of like altering the latency of the injectors by way of programming. It did help a bit. The carbed SV650 I used to have had a very smooth transition, I imagine that with modern FI bikes it boils down to programming. Perhaps the ZX-14 runs a higher pressure regulator that is compatible with the connie's engine?
Agreed.... My 08 VFR was the same. No fun in tracfic for sure. My 09 with PC5 though is smooth as butter. PA roads are some of the worst in the nation and never had problems .... Not even the snatchy VFR.
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Im reading this thread with great interest as I've noticed the same thing, or what I call a "Zero Throttle Flat Spot"
I've noticed this taking off from a dead stop mainly. Typically I'm not at Zero throttle when riding however there has been a time or two that I needed to when correcting a miscalculation in cornering speed. (new the to c14, not bikes).
I've taken up the slop in in the cables which helped the mechanical part of this however I feel there is an issue on the ECU end of it and am leaning towards the PC3 to iron out the flatspot.
Not too sure about the throttle tamer as being my solution though
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My '08 has this same jerkiness right at the bottom. The only time I feel it though is if I'm rolling slow like in a parking lot. Very little twist makes her jump.
What has worked for me is that as long as I'm moving be it 1 mph or more I'm in 2nd gear. By running a gear higher I put it under more load and she is smooth.
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The link breakes (2010-12) are un-linked at speeds below 12 mph.
That is good to know. I didn't know that. It may change my mind regarding purchasing another C14 after I'm finished with my 2009. :D I hate linked brakes when doing a full lock turn at low speeds.
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(Quote from: The Pope on June 19, 2012, 11:54:03 am
The link breakes (2010-12) are un-linked at speeds below 12 mph)
That is good to know. I didn't know that. It may change my mind regarding purchasing another C14 after I'm finished with my 2009. :D I hate linked brakes when doing a full lock turn at low speeds.
How are they unlinked? If it's mechanical could you not interrupt that function? And if it is computer controlled would that not be changeable with a reflash?