Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Afm252 on May 26, 2012, 09:22:04 AM
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Went to the dealership to get quote for the 15,000 yesterday. Service manager said I Was "crazy" to consider checking valve intervals at that time, unless I wanted to simply part with $800. Said he was going to push his personal C14 out to at least 25,000. First time I have had this level of "honesty" from a service team at a dealership. Makes me wonder.
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Yeah I wouldnt worry about it until then either.....matter of fact that is exactly what I am doing. ;)
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How would this affect any future warranty work on engine tho if needed ? Just curious.
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It would be arguable since the euro-spec bikes are identical with extended mileage for valve adjustment.
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People at dealerships are not d-bag. Some are really cool. I'm at 21k and also will wait til 25k+.
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If you study warranty laws here in the USA, the only way a warranty can be voided for skipping the 15,000 mile check is if that 15k service was free. They cannot violate your warranty if you do the work, or the work is never done. Its covered in the Magnuson-Moss act under "tie-in"
There are guides everywhere talking about our rights, but this one is semi-decent. http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/warranties/undermag.htm (http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/warranties/undermag.htm)
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I did mine at 15k and the bike ran better. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
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I did mine at 15k and the bike ran better. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
The placebo effect, LOL.
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I did mine at 15k and the bike ran better. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
It's all in your head.... :o
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The placebo effect, LOL.
Nothing makes me feel better than a $700 sugar pill. ;D
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I did mine at approximately 15,000 miles and 13 of the 16 valves were under the minimum tolerance limit. I'm glad that I did it. If you're a gambler.....
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If you study warranty laws here in the USA, the only way a warranty can be voided for skipping the 15,000 mile check is if that 15k service was free. They cannot violate your warranty if you do the work, or the work is never done. Its covered in the Magnuson-Moss act under "tie-in"
I think they CAN void parts of the warranty for non-service, but only if they can prove that the non-service *caused* the problem. Of course, the burden is on them, and something like that is probably very difficult to prove. That is my understanding, anyway.
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You might want to fix the thread title.
Those of us who have done our own valves seem to find more out-of-spec than dealers. I don't have my chart in front of me, but I recall having to buy 4-5 shims even after swapping things around. OTOH, I am extending my 2nd valve adjustment interval to 25k. You do what you want with your own bike, but I would not (and did not) extend the 1st one.
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Wonder just how many cars are technically out of spec and continue to run perfectly fine for many miles, with zero issues? ;)
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Wonder just how many cars are technically out of spec and continue to run perfectly fine for many miles, with zero issues? ;)
Seventeen. Don't push your luck.
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If you study warranty laws here in the USA, the only way a warranty can be voided for skipping the 15,000 mile check is if that 15k service was free. They cannot violate your warranty if you do the work, or the work is never done. Its covered in the Magnuson-Moss act under "tie-in"
There are guides everywhere talking about our rights, but this one is semi-decent. http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/warranties/undermag.htm (http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/warranties/undermag.htm)
I do not believe that is true. What I believe is that legally they cannot deny warranty coverage unless it is determined that the lack of service led to the failure.
BTW, I had two different dealers tell me there was no need to have mine checked until at least 25,000 miles. I had them checked at 29,000 miles and none needed adjustment.
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JJsc6, if you do a search on the Magnuson-Moss act, you'll see that it is true. Its not something I would have invented for purposes of this thread.
The only way Kawi can REQUIRE the service for warranty is to do the service for free, or have applied for a waiver with the FTC. The waiver woudl have to state the service was required for the motorcycle to work properly. If they did nto do this, they cannot require us to pay for the service to keep the warranty in force.
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This is why I love the forum...plenty of great opinions. Bottom line is whatever it takes to keep riding is what matters, at minimum cost of course.
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Nothing makes me feel better than a $700 sugar pill. ;D
Excellent! Pill is on the way and I take Paypal.
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Nothing makes me feel better than a $700 sugar pill. ;D
could be maybe, but an intake sync can do wonders if it out of spec
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could be maybe, but an intake sync can do wonders if it out of spec
My comment was made in jest. I have actually checked my valves twice, the first time I checked them myself around 25,000 miles (previous owner had it done at 15,000) and there were no shims needed since all the valves were smack dab in the middle of spec. Second time was at 42,000 and the dealer did it for $100 since my bike was having the valve cover gasket changed under warranty. They provided me with a shim map that showed the same measurements that I recorded. I am gonna stretch my next valve check to at least 75,000 miles and see what difference there is then.
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I'm at 20K and I was going to have the valves checked to address the ticking noise I posted about before. Instead, I washed the bike and the ticking noise is gone.
(Sentence #2 is true by the way. Don't ask me why the noise went away. I did spray down the accessible parts of the engine.)
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Valve adjust at 15K vs 25K is purely a personal preference. If the factory did a good job, you should be fine waiting for 25K.
However, it's still a gamble that the assembler didn't screw up, or something wasn't seated quite right when they assembled it, causing things to be off by a little.
All things being equal, there shouldn't be much change between new and 25K if everything was done right in the beginning. For most, it's just 'peace of mind'.
I'm guessing the valves would have to be WAY off for you to know they needed adjustment at 15K (without measuring, of course) . Maybe that's just me though.
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My z1000 i took in for its first valve check at 25K. Dealer gave me back the bike with a $900 bill. Said the valves "did not need done" and they spent more time tightening bolts and going over other things.....
Dealer was too lazy to do the work. And justified his bill with labor costs. Don't take a dealers word for it, They can be just lazy too.
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My z1000 i took in for its first valve check at 25K. Dealer gave me back the bike with a $900 bill. Said the valves "did not need done" and they spent more time tightening bolts and going over other things.....
Dealer was too lazy to do the work. And justified his bill with labor costs. Don't take a dealers word for it, They can be just lazy too.
Why would you think they did not check the valves? Or are you saying the dealer TOLD you they did not check the valves? Or was it that you asked for them to be checked, the manual calls for them to be checked, they checked them, and none were out of adjustment so they didn't have to change any shims? Shims don't actually cost much, if anything (because they are reused/swapped). Most of the work of a valve check job is the actual getting to them and checking them. Correcting them is a breeze (or at least it was on my previous bikes).
In general, how would anyone know ANY dealer does the work they claim to be doing, especially when it is internal and/or non-visible stuff.
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Maybe it's just that my mechanic was really persuasive...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cyH_7sPxVcQ/TEM8c9PlS2I/AAAAAAAADdw/OjPnrOP3W8A/s1600/Jordan+Carver+picture+in+Sexy+Mechanic+Photoshoot+%283%29.jpg)
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Yep, that would do it for me...
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Maybe it's just that my mechanic was really persuasive...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cyH_7sPxVcQ/TEM8c9PlS2I/AAAAAAAADdw/OjPnrOP3W8A/s1600/Jordan+Carver+picture+in+Sexy+Mechanic+Photoshoot+%283%29.jpg)
Indeed, sign me up for once a week... :P :-* :)
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I did my initial valve inspection at 36k. None were out of spec although several were on the tight side. I set every valve to the loose end of the spec.
I'll check them again at 65-70k or so. If they haven't moved much, I may never check them again.
As far as the dealer, there's not a factory (Kawasaki) dealer around Savannah that I would trust. There is an indy dealer that I trust, but he'll only do a C14 (or ZX14) in the off season since it takes so much room to spread the parts out.
The nearest Kawasaki dealer did not own a micrometer or even have shims when I was in there last because "we've never needed them".
IOW, they don't actually adjust valves but charge customers for it.
The one Indy dealer I trust puts his initials on the underside of the valve cover just in case the customer claims the valve inspection was never done.
A DIY valve inspection ain't bad. Take your time, make lots of room in the garage to spread the parts out. Allow time to order/exchange shims and take lots of notes.
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every 25,000 - 28,000 for me
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JJsc6, if you do a search on the Magnuson-Moss act, you'll see that it is true. Its not something I would have invented for purposes of this thread.
The only way Kawi can REQUIRE the service for warranty is to do the service for free, or have applied for a waiver with the FTC. The waiver woudl have to state the service was required for the motorcycle to work properly. If they did nto do this, they cannot require us to pay for the service to keep the warranty in force.
I have read bit's and pieces of it, admittedly not the whole thing. I have not seen that in there and I do not believe it. Let's use a hypothetical example. Lets say you burn a valve during the warranty period, but well after the valve adjustment mileage stated in the manual. Do you think that they cannot deny the warranty because you didn't have the valves checked?
Here are a few links of interest...
http://www.lemonlaw-attorneys.com/avoiding-warranty-denial/ (http://www.lemonlaw-attorneys.com/avoiding-warranty-denial/)
http://zembowersautocenter.com/TIPSADVICE/CARDEALERSHIPFORSERVICING/tabid/19156/Default.aspx (http://zembowersautocenter.com/TIPSADVICE/CARDEALERSHIPFORSERVICING/tabid/19156/Default.aspx)
BTW, I just went back and read the article you referenced. I saw what I think you are referring to. The wording is very vague, and I think taken out of context. I'm willing on betting money that a warranty claim can be denied if maintenance was not performed and they can tie said lack of maintenance to the failure.
OK, I just read some more that I found. I think what they are saying is that they cannot require you to have the service done by someone specific (such as the dealer) unless they offer the service for free. But that does not mean the service is not required. It just means that you can take it anywhere you want, or even do it your self as long as it is properly documented.
Here is the wording that indicates that to me...
"The essence of the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge."
Where it says "PARTS OR SERVICE IDENTIFIED BY BRAND". In other words, they cannot require that Ford (Ford being the "brand") cannot require you to have FORD do the service unless they are willing on doing it for free.
From this link.... http://www.301cycle.com/Service_Warranty.html (http://www.301cycle.com/Service_Warranty.html)
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Jim, that is correct. Of course maintainence can be required. They just cannot specify that you have to use their parts or labor unless they include it in the purchase price / offer to do it for free. You would need to be able to offer evidence that you did it yourself or took it to a competent place for service. Many times the law is not based on common sense, but this one comes pretty close.
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The way you guys describe it, it does make sense. Otherwise a person could claim oil changes need to be covered free if they were necessary.
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Why would you think they did not check the valves? Or are you saying the dealer TOLD you they did not check the valves? Or was it that you asked for them to be checked, the manual calls for them to be checked, they checked them, and none were out of adjustment so they didn't have to change any shims?
When i went to pick it up they told me they did not do them. Didn't even pull the valve cover. He instead had a list of times and other items they did to fill the time... I doubt they even knew how to do the check... How many sport bikes survive that long?
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When i went to pick it up they told me they did not do them. Didn't even pull the valve cover. He instead had a list of times and other items they did to fill the time... I doubt they even knew how to do the check... How many sport bikes survive that long?
That is slimy!
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i asked my dealer about the 15k valve check and he said he would be glad to do it. he said he would wait till about 20 to 25 k to do it though as most of the ones he has done at 15k needed nothing done.
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Has anyone seen a situation where not checking valve clearance caused issues?
I have in the dirt bike world, but its not a fair comparison since many brands of dirt bike valves wont last THAT long anyway.
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I would expect the engine to run poorly before burning a valve from being too tight too??? or does it go catastrophically when it does?
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Afm,
since I'm in Europe the manual calls for a first valve inspection at 42000 km / 25000 miles. But since I'm active in this forum I got a bit paranoic and at 15000 miles I asked my dealer about it. He told me not to worry, 42000 km is just fine. This will be happening next Tuesday and I'm looking forward to it. I can only tell you that I can hear the valves at some rpms/engine load and I don't like it (I'm the sort of folk who can hear the grass grow, anyway).
I just came back from a 4200 miles trip through Ireland and Britain, and I got very intimate with the bike, so it might just be that, or the valves really need be looked at.
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I would expect the engine to run poorly before burning a valve from being too tight too??? or does it go catastrophically when it does?
It does not go catastrophically. But it goes very gradually and you will not feel it until damage is done to the internals. Despite what the post above said, damn few people will hear it either (one way or another). There are simply to many other noises, and most of us wear helmets and ear plugs.
On the other hand, even a valve that is out of spec is not necessarily a problem yet. And in today's machinery the likely hood of a problem is not very common. My opinion is to be sure your bike is fully warmed up before running it hard, and is cooled down to "normal" operating temperature before shutting it off. And as always, short trips are the worst thing for an engine.
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And as always, short trips are the worst thing for an engine.
There you go giving good advice again... now I can't ride next door for a beer anymore! :o
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That is slimy!
I would have told the dealer that I am not paying him for "all the other" things he did as that was not what I told him to do... You requested he check the valves and that is what you agreed to pay for if he took it upon himself to check and do a list of other things that "he" felt was needed then that is on him... Now after I told him this and he got pissed then I would have looked at the list and determined how many I felt was worth paying for and perhaps negotiated what I felt was a fair price but he would get the point that you don't do what ever you feel like doing and expect to be paid for it.. You do what the customer ask and any additional items you call and get pre approval for before doing. That is the proper way to do business.
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I would have told the dealer that I am not paying him for "all the other" things he did as that was not what I told him to do... You requested he check the valves and that is what you agreed to pay for if he took it upon himself to check and do a list of other things that "he" felt was needed then that is on him... Now after I told him this and he got pissed then I would have looked at the list and determined how many I felt was worth paying for and perhaps negotiated what I felt was a fair price but he would get the point that you don't do what ever you feel like doing and expect to be paid for it.. You do what the customer ask and any additional items you call and get pre approval for before doing. That is the proper way to do business.
^^^^that
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Afm,
since I'm in Europe the manual calls for a first valve inspection at 42000 km / 25000 miles.
is that 42000km/25000 miles listed in the manual for the c14's in Europe?? if it is then I don't see how they could deny any warranty work here in the US if something happened if you didn't do the check at 15000 miles. as far as I know its the same motor!
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I would have told the dealer that I am not paying him for "all the other" things he did as that was not what I told him to do... You requested he check the valves and that is what you agreed to pay for if he took it upon himself to check and do a list of other things that "he" felt was needed then that is on him... Now after I told him this and he got pissed then I would have looked at the list and determined how many I felt was worth paying for and perhaps negotiated what I felt was a fair price but he would get the point that you don't do what ever you feel like doing and expect to be paid for it.. You do what the customer ask and any additional items you call and get pre approval for before doing. That is the proper way to do business.
+1
I would be *FURIOUS* if a dealer or any contractor of any sort did work I did not specify or authorize. No approval = no pay. And if they did something I want undone, they can pay to undo it, too.
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is that 42000km/25000 miles listed in the manual for the c14's in Europe?? if it is then I don't see how they could deny any warranty work here in the US if something happened if you didn't do the check at 15000 miles. as far as I know its the same motor!
This point has been debated quite a bit. The best reason that I have seen it that US C14's have the shorter valve check interval is due to EPA regs. Or it could just be the fact that Mama Kaw wanted to throw the US dealers a bone and gave them a $500-$800 job that "needs" to be done more often. ;)
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...just sayin' ...my GL1800 had just over 50,000 miles before I had the valves checked...not one needed work, I don't intend on giving a dealer business just 'cause. I'll wait at least 25,000 miles before submitting...just
Dave
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...Despite what the post above said, damn few people will hear it either (one way or another). There are simply to many other noises, and most of us wear helmets and ear plugs...
jjsC6,
I always use earplugs and helmet ;D but I still can hear and tell apart the noises the bike makes. It's even worse when I switch from my noise cancelling headphones to earplugs. The NC headphones filter all those mechanical, constant noises very well, so when I put on the earplugs instead and start the engine, things become very obvious. But as said, I am a compulsive obsessive bastard have a very sensitive hearing. I can't sleep in a room with a wind up watch. I can hear my hamsters using their exercise wheel two rooms away, with the door closed. I can hear when my girlfriend comes home from the way she opens the door downstairs in the building where we live... :-\
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My z1000 i took in for its first valve check at 25K. Dealer gave me back the bike with a $900 bill. Said the valves "did not need done" and they spent more time tightening bolts and going over other things.....
Dealer was too lazy to do the work. And justified his bill with labor costs. Don't take a dealers word for it, They can be just lazy too.
You gotta be kidding me. A real mechanic could tighten every exposed bolt/nut on the entire bike in 30 minutes.
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I think this is now an issue of preference.
When us early adopters were reaching that first 15K mark, there was no history of others we could reference.
Now, I think the pattern is well established.
Many of us have found the valves to be a little on the tight side at the first check, but nothing worrisome.
After that, they appear to stay pretty stable.
Which leads me to believe... the head and valvetrain is well designed, and they don't wander much at all. Kudos to Kawi!
For my own bike. We changed a few shims that first check and everything stayed within spec until the 75k check, when one more was out of spec. (we changed a couple to center them up again)
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It is truly amazing how across the map this issue is. From what I gather from this discussion is when the time is right, the time will be right. Happy ground seems to be about 25000-30000.
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Hey Fella's
I just got my bike back from my dealer from a valve adjustment. The service manager is a good friend . 15 out of 16 needed a shim. Also fixed the cooling fan issue( blown fuse).Hopefully it will not happen again. I have 18000 miles on my 2010. I was going to wait to have the values done until 24000 miles.
C44
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OK,
Here's a question that I haven't seen answered. Given the US has a lower mileage recommendation than Europe does for checking the valves, are the European clearance specs wider in range or are the ranges the same as the US specs?
Jeff
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Hi there, my feedback with this issue:
I just got mine back from the dealer. I'm in Germany so the manual calls for 42000 km/ 26000 miles.
He did the valve job with a bit more than that (45000 km or 29000 miles) since I hit the mark being on a long trip. He found 7 valves slightly on the loose side and changed the shims.
I mentioned before that I heard the valves (a kind of tik tik at 2000-2500 rpm). When I pointed out the noise to my girlfriend she could also hear it, but of course she had no idea what it was. Now the noise is gone, and my gf agrees 8)
And for those of you who think I'm crazy: you're just jealous because the purple little men only speak to me.
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Hi there, my feedback with this issue:
I just got mine back from the dealer. I'm in Germany so the manual calls for 42000 km/ 26000 miles.
He did the valve job with a bit more than that (45000 km or 29000 miles) since I hit the mark being on a long trip. He found 7 valves slightly on the loose side and changed the shims.
I mentioned before that I heard the valves (a kind of tik tik at 2000-2500 rpm). When I pointed out the noise to my girlfriend she could also hear it, but of course she had no idea what it was. Now the noise is gone, and my gf agrees 8)
And for those of you who think I'm crazy: you're just jealous because the purple little men only speak to me.
I am certainly no expert, but I have been told that with modern engines, valves typically go tight over time, not loose. No?
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Valves wear in tighter not looser is correct. This happens because as the valve closes back into the head it wears into the seat area which raises the valve stem in the head which of course decreases the clearance at the shim/bucket/cam interface point.
I will do mine at 15000 and probably never touch it again. I always set all my valves at the far loose end of the spec. It probably doesn't actually make a difference but I feel it frees up frictional losses and revs out nicer......and it stays within spec longer too.