Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: gpzrocker on April 29, 2012, 04:13:36 PM
-
On a ride this weekend I had to do some slab time. A friend confirmed what I thought: on the interstate he sees my swing arm moving side to side. He said he thought it was not my tire, but the whole assembly. At a stop we put it on the center stand and nothing moving, just like when I checked it when I put the Shinko on. I wrote it off as the Shinko, being that I did not notice it with the Avon.
Looked at the diagram, looks fairly simple, although I am used to one swingarm bolt all of the way through, I see one on each side. Correct? and I am assuming from my previous motorcycles and how this all works that the shock linkage could not cause any problem like this, although I am sure those bearings need replaced too.
Gratuitous photo shot of the ride this weekend anyway:
-
When was the last time your swingarm bushing bolts were checked and torqued?
-
I've found it to be a good idea to pull the swingarm, grease the swingarm bearings and torque the pivot bolts as explained in the Factory Service Manual. You will find that there is very little grease in the bearings, if the swingarm has been loose for a while the bearing races could be notched so take a good look at them.
-
I have had the bike for 2 years around 5K miles and never have done the swingarm. Guess it is time. Have only noticed the issue in the last 500 miles or so, so I guess it is time.
-
I clean and grease mine once a year, same as I do the steering head bearings. That is usually around 25,000 to 30,000 miles. It's not a hard job and it gives you a chance to look things over and clean some things up.
-
Are there any parts that could need replaced in there?
Anything specific to look for?
Im thinking I need to look at mine. Have noticed a bit of movement in the back end, and thought it was the tire, but maybe its not.
Do you need to buy any seals or anything when removing the final drive from the shaft? Not really sure how that comes apart, but I assume it has to since its part of the swingarm.
-
I have a tall Rifle windshield on my '94. I had a similar problem with tail wiggle on E-ways. Turned out I did not have enough preload on my fork settings. When I stopped for gas I turn the preload adjusters in (down) until I only had 1 line showing on the adjuster.That cured the wiggle!
Bike had not done the wiggle until I went from the stock windshield to the tall Rifle. I'm pretty sure it was caused by the extra frontal area of the new shield. I read about it someplace and it came back to me that day.
-
I have a tall Rifle windshield on my '94. I had a similar problem with tail wiggle on E-ways. Turned out I did not have enough preload on my fork settings. When I stopped for gas I turn the preload adjusters in (down) until I only had 1 line showing on the adjuster.That cured the wiggle!
Bike had not done the wiggle until I went from the stock windshield to the tall Rifle. I'm pretty sure it was caused by the extra frontal area of the new shield. I read about it someplace and it came back to me that day.
Ill try that too, since I do indeed have a tall Rifle on mine...only trouble is, I cant remember if it did it before or not! Darn CRS anyway...
-
Since the pivots are separated, you don't have to pull the swing arm out to service the bearings, you can do them one at a time -- to a point, anyway. It's been a while since I greased mine -- which were almost dry from the factory -- but I recall doing the L/H side first, then the R/H side. If you haven't looked at the breakdown, bikebandit has a good view of the set-up (attached). Pull the L/H pivot via the three outer screws -- since the outer races are fitted to the swing arm, the pivots are all that hold the bearings in place. Wash the bearing with your favorite solvent -- I like WD-40 -- then pack it with good grease just like it was a wheel bearing. Re-install the pivot and repeat for the R/H side. Bear in mind (pun intended) that the packed grease will have to settle as you install the pivots. The R/H pivot has the adjustment, which is a bit tougher, since you need to preload the pivot, then hold it while applying torque to the lock nut. I find a crow's foot for the nut works well, while allowing a socket for holding the pivot pre-load.
-
They are true bearings, not bushings. Get some extra grease seals ahead of time. I wish they had designed zerk fittings into the system. I did mine about 50,000 miles ago and they do not even need to be readjusted. One you really grease the bearings liberally with good grease, they should be good for the life of the bike. That is unless you store you bike underwater during floods. Good Luck
-
Upgrade to the bronze bushings. I will before too long.
-
I'm sorry, but to me changing from an adjustable tapered roller bearing to a fixed bushing is never going to be an improvement.
-
I'm sorry, but to me changing from an adjustable tapered roller bearing to a fixed bushing is never going to be an improvement.
Most people would think that but in reality it is.
I will doing mine soon , right after I rebuilt the front forks. I am at 100k (no respect) hard miles.
-
The bronze bushings are in the shock linkage....they replace the needle bearings.....good swap to do.....swingarm is the tapered bearings and that would take some major machining and modifications to change to bushings....
-
I'm sorry, but to me changing from an adjustable tapered roller bearing to a fixed bushing is never going to be an improvement.
You might want to read this thread:
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6061.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6061.0)
-
Looks to me like we are discussing 2 different items. Shock linkage bearings and swingarm bearings. So which is it ?
-
What I am talking about is all the above.
-
You're correct -- different subjects. Shock linkage with needle bearings instead of the swing arm tapered roller.
-
Yes, i was referring to the swing arm bearings, but I could see working up both at the same time. I have done the rocker arm bushings before on another bike and see the value of the solid bushings.
Still have not opened it all up yet. Silly life getting in the way.
-
I'm sorry, but to me changing from an adjustable tapered roller bearing to a fixed bushing is never going to be an improvement.
In the swingarm? NO
In the Shock Linkage? YES
Bronze Bushing work as good and better in the "correct" application such as the shock linkages; my rear end will agree.
-
Red,
My shock linkage does not have any bearings that are tapered or adjustable. Mine has cylindrical caged needle bearings that are trapped under a fixed shouldered bolt. In many applications, solid bushings are much better, although it might seem at first glance that the fancier roller elements are inherently better.
Maybe you are talking about the swingarm pivots? Those are Timken-type tapered rollers. Much better there, as the swingarm is load-bearing, both rotational and axial. The shock linkage not so much.
Solid bushings: more contact area, thus lower surface pressure on the bolts. Check out the brinelling on YOUR bolts when you get them apart. Local microwelding on the bolt shank due to high pressure caused by small needle bearing rollers. Here is a link! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinelling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinelling)
More contact area eliminates this problem, and is also the cause of the more solid feel, as the solid bushing resists angular loads better.
-
datsaxman ....this is why Kawasaki says to replace the shock linkage bolts if they show signs of wear, brinelling to use the tech term. If you change the shock linkage bearings out to solid bushings you can reuse the bolts even if they show signs of brinelling.
-
datsaxman ....this is why Kawasaki says to replace the shock linkage bolts if they show signs of wear, brinelling to use the tech term. If you change the shock linkage bearings out to solid bushings you can reuse the bolts even if they show signs of brinelling.
Here is what I did and what I've recommended that others do IF the indentation on the bolts is not too severe. Chuck them in a drill motor by their threads and polish them with a length of emery cloth till they appear smooth and shiny. When you press fit the bushings into place you will most likely find that they compress the ID ever so slightly as this is what they are designed to do. If you use self oiling sintered bronze as we did you do not want to polish their ID as this will smear the surface of the bronze and clog the pores with grit and they will not self lube as well as they should have and shorten their life. The shoulder bolt will likely fit too tight so something has got to give and by spinning them in a drill motor and polishing with emery cloth you will again ever so slightly reduce their OD and soon you will get them to slip fit really nice. As a warning you will find the zerks hard to grease and that will be normal as the clearances are so close fit.
-
Gave my bolts to my local machinest and he made the bushings to fit.....but for cost effectiveness and quality time spent with your drill press...VBG...get the bushings from the supplies mentioned in the other thread.....
-
Gave my bolts to my local machinest and he made the bushings to fit.....but for cost effectiveness and quality time spent with your drill press...VBG...get the bushings from the supplies mentioned in the other thread.....
I'd try it anyway as the bushings are going to compress when you press fit them into the linkage. They just might close up enough to fit the polished bolts. What ya got to loose?
-
Yes, the bolts can be reused with the bushings even if they are damaged.
Yes, the bushings will collapse a bit when installed.
Yes, polishing the bolts is a very good way to improve the fit and reduce the effects of the damage.
Yes, that is what I did! My bolts were rough, but not too badly damaged. Better now!
saxman
-
Just for clarity (or to muddy it up, I never know)... There's a difference between normal wear and the impact damage they're talking about. The bearings don't move around much so you'll get wear marks in the bolt's finish. If you don't feel ridges with the tip of your thumb nail, it's ok.
-
mdr I would say that if you see some wear and just feel the need to run your finger nail across it the bolt needs replacing. In my experience with needle bearings the shaft the bearings are pivoting on needs to harder than the needles and be a very close fit....and the bolts Kawasaki uses are far from that in either case. If you can find a good magnifier look across the bolt from various angles ....if it isn't dead smooth it's toast.
If you mark the orientation of the bolt before undoing the nut and upon removal noting the wear area you may be able to prolong the bolts life by turning the bolt to a new position but really for the cost of the bushings vs the cost of bearings this is a no brainer......and it will be good for as long as you own the bike.
Surprising how nice the ride is when it isn't binding up.....
-
Since the pivots are separated, you don't have to pull the swing arm out to service the bearings, you can do them one at a time -- to a point, anyway. It's been a while since I greased mine -- which were almost dry from the factory -- but I recall doing the L/H side first, then the R/H side. If you haven't looked at the breakdown, bikebandit has a good view of the set-up (attached). Pull the L/H pivot via the three outer screws -- since the outer races are fitted to the swing arm, the pivots are all that hold the bearings in place. Wash the bearing with your favorite solvent -- I like WD-40 -- then pack it with good grease just like it was a wheel bearing. Re-install the pivot and repeat for the R/H side. Bear in mind (pun intended) that the packed grease will have to settle as you install the pivots. The R/H pivot has the adjustment, which is a bit tougher, since you need to preload the pivot, then hold it while applying torque to the lock nut. I find a crow's foot for the nut works well, while allowing a socket for holding the pivot pre-load.
I'm outside now attempting to do this, and I see no way of removing the bearing to clean it while the swingarm is still in the frame. The outter diameter of the bearing cage is larger than the oppening in the frame. At this point, working alone, I'm struggling to get it back together, I can't align the beaging in the window while inserting the pivot shaft. Please explain how you were able to remove the bearing, or if I misunderstood the post. Thanks.
-
I have not dome this but reread this part:
Pull the L/H pivot via the three outer screws -- since the outer races are fitted to the swing arm, the pivots are all that hold the bearings in place. Wash the bearing with your favorite solvent
I think he is saying the bearing comes out the other way? Sorry if this is no help.
Wayne
I'm outside now attempting to do this, and I see no way of removing the bearing to clean it while the swingarm is still in the frame. The outter diameter of the bearing cage is larger than the oppening in the frame. At this point, working alone, I'm struggling to get it back together, I can't align the beaging in the window while inserting the pivot shaft. Please explain how you were able to remove the bearing, or if I misunderstood the post. Thanks.
-
Kzz, having it apart I do not think that is the case. There MAY be enouge room to remove the bearing, but as soon as I pulled the pivot bolt, the whole swingarm shifted (it's on the C stand) so the bearing is no longer centered in the frame opening. I can't get it apart or back together (so far).
-
Leverage on the rear wheel and a jack under the rear shock are getting me colse, but also close to knocking the bike off the stand and on to me, not the desired result!
-
I have not dome this but reread this part:
Pull the L/H pivot via the three outer screws -- since the outer races are fitted to the swing arm, the pivots are all that hold the bearings in place. Wash the bearing with your favorite solvent
I think he is saying the bearing comes out the other way? Sorry if this is no help.
Wayne
the swing arm must be totally removed, to remove the grease seals and tapered bearings. period.
-
the swing arm must be totally removed, to remove the grease seals and tapered bearings. period.
It cetainly seems that way to me! I dropped the rear wheel and have the pivot bolt back in. Now my question is, do I simply finish removing the swingarm since I'm this far into it? I know I'm lacking a torque wrench and the allen socket as well as the socket for the lock nut. I know I can "borrow" the torque wrench from about any retail parts store, not sure about the allen drive and the socket. Time to make a call...
-
Blaise, do you have a manual handy? I am looking at mine as we speak, and that's why I said you have to drop the swingarm. It's a p.i.t.a to get to the bearings, you pretty much have to disconnect the shaft drive, and the whole rear end assemblies come apart, to lube those bearings correctly....
are you in a place with high speed internet?
shoot me a note with your e-mail address...a p/m will do and include your e-mail in there. ;)
-
Yes, I have a manual and am looking at it now. I was following a previous post that stated it could be done with the swingarm in place, as long as you did one side at a time. I'm thinking reassembly at this point, even though the rear wheel and final drive are already off because I lack the proper tools. I would be adjusting the preload by feel instead of proper torque. The local parts store doesn't even loan the torque wrench, forget about the allen drive socket and the lock nut socket. The thing that's killing me is that I have all of this stuff, 700 miles away in my garage :(
-
It cetainly seems that way to me! I dropped the rear wheel and have the pivot bolt back in. Now my question is, do I simply finish removing the swingarm since I'm this far into it? I know I'm lacking a torque wrench and the allen socket as well as the socket for the lock nut. I know I can "borrow" the torque wrench from about any retail parts store, not sure about the allen drive and the socket. Time to make a call...
If you have an Autozone nearby, they had a nice set of the very large Allen sockets for not too much money.
I know some have mentioned getting them at Harbor Freight too, but mine didnt have the sizes I needed....though mine was the front axle bolt.
-
you don't need allen sockets for that job, a key will work, you aren't torquing the allen, just the outer hex locknut...the manual shows the allen wrench being held by 2 fingers during the operation with the special torque adapter tool. :-X...
-
Here's the decision I've made and the way I'm procedeing now. I have the tools to remove and service the bearings, so I am doing that. The swingarm was nearly at the removal point already, just had to remove the shock and disconnect it's linkages, the drive shaft just slides out and stays attached to the bike. I do NOT have the tools for a propper adjustment of the bearings, so I did not and will not touch the adjuster until proper tools are in hand. When I do the adjustment, I will know that the bearings have already been propperly greased.
-
Unless I'm looking at the diagram and reading the manual wrong, it states to "screw in the right pivot shaft and tighten it to the specified torque" (T7, 20 ft-lb).This is after tightening the 3 mounting screws to their torque and before torquing the lock nut. It seems the allen screw, which is actually the pivot itself, is how the bearing preload gets set. Is this not correct?
-
Unless I'm looking at the diagram and reading the manual wrong, it states to "screw in the right pivot shaft and tighten it to the specified torque" (T7, 20 ft-lb).This is after tightening the 3 mounting screws to their torque and before torquing the lock nut. It seems the allen screw, which is actually the pivot itself, is how the bearing preload gets set. Is this not correct?
Install both pivots, torque the 3 fasteners on both pivots, torque the adjuster on the right pivot to 20 foot pounds. Hold the adjuster on the pivot with a hex key to keep it from turning while you tighten the lock nut. A crowfoot of the proper size is likely to cost you as much or more than the special tool.
-
Install both pivots, torque the 3 fasteners on both pivots, torque the adjuster on the right pivot to 20 foot pounds. Hold the adjuster on the pivot with a hex key to keep it from turning while you tighten the lock nut. A crowfoot of the proper size is likely to cost you as much or more than the special tool.
Yup, that's the way I read it. I don't have an allen of that size with me, or my torque wrenches (I have 1/4 drive torque wrench, and it would do the 6 pivot fasteners) so I just left the adjuster alone and repacked the bearings. When I get the proper tools, I will do the adjustment.
-
Did this last night, not hard. My center allen never even thought about moving when torquing the outside nut, so food for thought there. Isn't Ron (Sasmayhem) near you? I can hit up my contacts out that way if you need. Also having a very interesting day long run out of Boone on the 14th: interested?
-
bbroj,
Are you at Tom Pritchard's place? If so, I'm only 20 minutes west of you. As far as tools go, I may not have everything, but I get by. Let me know if there's something you need.
Mike
-
gruff54, yes, that's exactly where I'm staying. Been here going on 4 months now. I appreciate the offer, I have met and worked with other COGers in the area, and the support and comradarie has been great. I volunteered to work tomorow, or I'd ask if you wanted to get together for a ride or to try to perform this relatively simple adjustment. Some weekend , perhaps?
-
bbroj, Just let me know. If I've got time, I'd be glad to.
Mike
p.s. Does Tom let loose with the train horns out there?
-
Sounds good to me. So far, I have yet to hear the train/fire siren. I have seen the fire truck it's mounted to though. Just the siren has a hemi to power it!
-
I think I remember him telling me the hemi-pwered siren was an old roof-top air-raid siren. LOUD doesn't even begin to describe it!