Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: cog4030 on February 22, 2012, 10:16:36 AM
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I'm in the planning stage of adjusting the valves on my C14. In fact I pulled the fairings off last night.
I've done it multiple times on my old 99 C10, but the C14 is a little different =8-)) !!
I've read just about all the threads on both forums and the service manual but still have a few questions.
Do the 4 oil tubes just pull out ?? IE no clamps or brackets holding them in place.
To turn the engine over to get to # 1 and # 4 piston TDC, I'm assuming bumping it with the starter is acceptable or not ??
Thanks in Advance !
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It is a lot different than the C10, you aren't gonna want to be bumping the starter to turn the engine....
you need to remove the cover from the timing wheel... and pay close attention to the actual position and marks, along with scribing marks on the timing gears/cam ends.
This is because if needed for adjusting, you will be pulling the cams.
Pull the sparkplugs out when you get everythiong "unburied", and simply turn the engine over with the crank bolt.
Follow the instructions in the manual....do not deviate.
Keep good records of the measurements.
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Why can't you use the starter to move the cams?
I'd just be doing it to move between #1 TDC and #4 TDC to get the initial clearances.
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
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You can do it anyway you want. Why bother to ask if you are going to argue or ignore good advice?
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I watched Fred's videos on the valve adjustment and still would not try it, I cannot imagine trying to do it from text.
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Yes, the oil tubes just pull out. Check the O-rings on each one though- about 1/4 of mine were nicked. The O-rings are available as an individual part or you can buy them from any bearing store if you use an old one for size.
You can turn the engine over with the starter provided the entire valve train, including the tensioner, is intact and properly tightened. That said, it is unlikely you will hit the mark correctly without having to do it multiple times so it is not worth it in my opinion. As others have said, just use a wrench or ratchet to turn the engine the correct direction (the correct direction only!).
Once any part of the valve train is loosened or removed, including the cam chain tensioner, you should not turn the engine over with the starter. Valves may strike pistons and that will surely turn into a very expensive valve adjustment. The best method is not to use the starter again until the engine is buttoned up and all hoses and wiring is in place.
Brian
I'm in the planning stage of adjusting the valves on my C14. In fact I pulled the fairings off last night.
I've done it multiple times on my old 99 C10, but the C14 is a little different =8-)) !!
I've read just about all the threads on both forums and the service manual but still have a few questions.
Do the 4 oil tubes just pull out ?? IE no clamps or brackets holding them in place.
To turn the engine over to get to # 1 and # 4 piston TDC, I'm assuming bumping it with the starter is acceptable or not ??
Thanks in Advance !
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I'd recommend disconnecting the battery while doing that deed... 8)
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I'm a decent mechanic, but my Concours is at the dealership right now having the valves checked. Some jobs are just worth paying the folks who do it for a living.
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12 pcak of hamms and i could do it myslef, sounds fun.
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Hey Cog, have ya been introduced to Haraldo? I pray this thread stays under 10 pages. But, we are in need of an epic thread to follow along as well as a well intentioned person willing to become the end of all things funny ;D
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What kind of bike does Haroldo ride now? I need to check out that forum to see what he has been up to. I remember reading his valve check thread when I was doing research for my first time and it was a classic. He had me ready to pack up my tools and send my bike to the dealer so I couldn't become Haroldo the second.
@ the OP: Save yourself some trouble and pick up a copy of Fred's DVD's, they will make the job much easier.
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12 pcak of hamms and i could do it myslef, sounds fun.
Not sure if this is humor or irony. But if unintentional, you might not want to combine beer and valves.
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Why can't you use the starter to move the cams?
I'd just be doing it to move between #1 TDC and #4 TDC to get the initial clearances.
You can do it anyway you want. Why bother to ask if you are going to argue or ignore good advice?
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :stirpot: :thumbs: :thumbs: :hitfan:
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I'm in the planning stage of adjusting the valves on my C14. In fact I pulled the fairings off last night.
I've done it multiple times on my old 99 C10, but the C14 is a little different =8-)) !!
I've read just about all the threads on both forums and the service manual but still have a few questions.
Do the 4 oil tubes just pull out ?? IE no clamps or brackets holding them in place.
To turn the engine over to get to # 1 and # 4 piston TDC, I'm assuming bumping it with the starter is acceptable or not ??
Thanks in Advance !
Buy Fred's Videos and a Service Manual bro, trust me.
:-) And For those that laugh: I did it (valve adjust and whatever else I could do other than fock up my brake calipers with brake grease LOL) becuase one day I plan on shedding my XXXXXX salary for a life of coveralls, a tractor, 3 acres out in the middle of nowhere, and a fancy double-wide. I won't have the luxury of paying a dealer to maintain something I can do myself. I love to tinker, but have a mission to learn also. Just sayin', don't knock a man for tryin' (not that I was, but whew, Will Haraldo's misfortunes ever die?)
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Just sayin', don't knock a man for tryin' (not that I was, but whew, Will Haraldo's misfortunes ever die?)
No, they won't. Not as long as the members who were around then and now still remember those posts.
No one is knocking anyone for doing a valve adjust on this bike. It's just a little more complicated than doing a C10's valves (which I have done multiple times). Sound advice would be to listen to what the members say who've done this and follow along with Fred's videos.
I wouldn't do it because I don't have the kind of time it requires to get it right. Too many things to do and not enough time to do it. Kudos to anyone that does though.
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No, they won't. Not as long as the members who were around then and now still remember those posts.
No one is knocking anyone for doing a valve adjust on this bike. It's just a little more complicated than doing a C10's valves (which I have done multiple times). Sound advice would be to listen to what the members say who've done this and follow along with Fred's videos.
I wouldn't do it because I don't have the kind of time it requires to get it right. Too many things to do and not enough time to do it. Kudos to anyone that does though.
Bio chemistry is complicated. valve adjusts are not. They are however tedious and involved.
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That's coming from you.... To me they're complicated. ;)
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And back at 'cha :) : that's coming from you that no one is laughing, to me Haraldo gets clowned mercilessly. Glad he is a standup guy. Does he still frequent here?
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Not very much these days. I still see him pop in from time to time. I certainly don't think Haroldo is being clowned. He went through so much and provided us all the details of what worked and what didn't. Legendary is the word I would use. We learned so much from him.
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I'll be posting another epic thread soon. Tires are starting to wear out so will be time to learn how to change tires. Let's see if I can do without busting a TPM, scratching rims, or mounting backwards :)
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Not very much these days. I still see him pop in from time to time. I certainly don't think Haroldo is being clowned. He went through so much and provided us all the details of what worked and what didn't. Legendary is the word I would use. We learned so much from him.
Yes, legend and lore. Were it not the simple fact that he partakes of the good natured ribbing I would never bring it up. He is one of those rare individuals that likes living with no regrets and takes ownership of all he does. I do wish he would spend more time around here. If anyone knows him and we have pushed the proverbial envelope please let us know. I will doa (Typo ;) ) valve job, I have always wanted to become a legend 8)
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I'm following this thread closely since my salary XXX, and bills XXXX say, You'll be doing these yourself! I'm a few miles short of the recommended service, but I'll check them on time. Its not worth the damage that could occur if my bike happened to be the one that needed adjustment.
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I adjusted my timing chain one day on my Yamaha 750 Special, by bumping the starter a couple of times. The Hayes Manual said turn the engine over, it didn't say how. The chain jumped a notch and the engine ran roughly. I paid dearly for a dealer appointed mech-tech to fix it. I didn't know how to line it all up back then. Like, toss the Hayes into the trash, for one.
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No, they won't. Not as long as the members who were around then and now still remember those posts.
No one is knocking anyone for doing a valve adjust on this bike. It's just a little more complicated than doing a C10's valves (which I have done multiple times). Sound advice would be to listen to what the members say who've done this and follow along with Fred's videos.
I wouldn't do it because I don't have the kind of time it requires to get it right. Too many things to do and not enough time to do it. Kudos to anyone that does though.
The time to do it right is the problem with having the dealer do the job. The guy doing the work is always doing so with one eye on the clock. His attention is also diverted by having other chores to do, interruptions by others, small jobs that crop up and must be done immediately, etc. With very rare exceptions, your valve job will not be done properly at a dealership.
Read my previous post on this subject: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6542.msg77610#msg77610 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6542.msg77610#msg77610)
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That's really a sad state of affairs, isn't it? Can't trust any professional technician to do the job right.... All I know is if they f it up then they pay for it. If I f it up then I pay for it. I'll take the former rather than the latter thank you very much as I don't do that kind of work on regular basis nor do I want to learn how at this time of my life. I do appreciate your thoughts on the subject but I know my limitations and time constraints, of which I have many, so I'll be going to the dealer for that service. Again, congratulations to all that can do that type of work. I can't anymore.
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All the intake and all but two of the exhaust valves were out of tolerance. I am able to move some around and order 7 new shims.
Pulling the stick coils and the buckets off has been the hardest part so far.
Thanks to those who answered my questions...
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Ah! the great checking valves/shims debate revisited.........................
Why are you guys SO FRIGHTENED about doing these shims yourself????????????????
It really isnt that hard, honestly, I think the hardest part is pulling all the fairings off, doing the actual shims is easy.....
And for bumping the cams around by the starter motor, thats a HELL NO!!!!!
Take the plugs out and bump the back wheel (on centerstand) in 6th gear.
After you have worked out if you actually need to change any of the shims, (good tip here.........) ziptie the cam chain to
the cam wheels so it doesnt jump a tooth, and the cams DONT NEED TO COME OUT to do shims.
I have done my 08 (just sold) at 25K and 2 shims needed changing, I have done 3 ZX1400's so in effect!!!!! I do know what
I'm talking about............
As for taking it to the dealer,,,,, kind of on the fence with that one, your BEST BET is to find a good mechanic that knows his $hit and not just a spotty kid that came from being bored at Lowes and decided to learn about mechanics at the local dealership.......... (Ive seen some losers working in the back at motorcycle dealers) I would'nt let them feed my dog nevermind go in my engine..........
The best person in the world to go in your engine is..........................YOU.......
Take a weekend and learn how its done, or, just blow your hard earned money at the stealers............
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Ah! the great checking valves/shims debate revisited.........................
Take the plugs out and bump the back wheel (on centerstand) in 6th gear.
After you have worked out if you actually need to change any of the shims, (good tip here.........) ziptie the cam chain to
the cam wheels so it doesnt jump a tooth, and the cams DONT NEED TO COME OUT to do shims.
The best person in the world to go in your engine is..........................YOU.......
Since this is a forum dedicated to the Kawasaki Concours 14 I must assume that this is the engine you're referring to when offering valve adjustment advice. This engine utilizes a shim under bucket valve configuration. There is absolutely no way to exchange a shim with another in this type of engine without removing the cam that operates that valve. The cams do not need to be removed to measure the clearance with a feeler gauge but it is impossible to get a shim out and replace it with another unless the cam above that particular valve is removed. As for rotating the engine, there is only one proper way to do so with accuracy and that is to turn the crankshaft with a wrench rather than using the rear wheel with the transmission in 6th gear.
As for the best person to do the work. That would be you provided you have both the knowledge of how to do the job, or the ability to learn how to do it plus the inherent ability to actually do it correctly. There are a great many people in this world who are capable of screwing up everything they touch. They just don't have an ounce of mechanical ability and can't even put air in a tire. These folks should just rely on their check book and pay someone else to get anything done. Many others are on the other end of the spectrum and actually can accomplish any task they undertake and do it with great expertise. The vast majority land somewhere between these two extremes and need to decide for themselves where they stand.
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Yes, I was referring to the C14 engine, as for changing shim, again I state, the CAMS do NOT have to be removed, lifted up and carefully placed to the side or lifted up then the bucket lifted up then the shim can be removed, actually that easy, my girlfriend can do it (seriously) she has trouble taking that tank off though!!! lol.
and FYI Kawasaki ZRX 1100 and ZRX 1200 shim s can be used in the C14.
As for using a wrench to turn the motor, I use the rear wheel method because removing the bottom cover WILL need another gasket (even its perfect) and extra oil needed due to the cover being off.
As for the ones that dont know their arse from their elbows............... line the pockets of the dealers then......
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Yes, I was referring to the C14 engine, as for changing shim, again I state, the CAMS do NOT have to be removed, lifted up and carefully placed to the side or lifted up then the bucket lifted up then the shim can be removed, actually that easy, my girlfriend can do it (seriously) she has trouble taking that tank off though!!! lol.
and FYI Kawasaki ZRX 1100 and ZRX 1200 shim s can be used in the C14.
As for using a wrench to turn the motor, I use the rear wheel method because removing the bottom cover WILL need another gasket (even its perfect) and extra oil needed due to the cover being off.
As for the ones that dont know their arse from their elbows............... line the pockets of the dealers then......
Ok Phil, I can't argue with your explanation. We're talking about semantical differences. We express our thoughts differently. To me, removing the cam means pulling the caps and lifting the cam from its assigned place atop the head, whether it is actually just moved aside or taking it out and setting it on the bench. To you it means actually pulling it through the chain and setting it somewhere else while you swap shims. By either definition the cams cannot be left in place and secured by their caps to change shims. Either way, the job will get done. I'm retired and have as much time as I desire to perform the job and I prefer to actually pull either or both of the cams through the chain and then have a lot of room to actually swap the shims.
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Bud, Ok, maybe my English is throwing you a wee bit (raised in UK)
Once the valve cover is off, get a piece of paper and draw a good diagram looking down above the engine which should show
16 drawn holes, now go ahead (with spark plugs out) put it in 6th gear and bump the back wheel and take measurement of every shim gap (bucket to cam) if all within spec.....thats awesome news, if not..............
WRITE DOWN EACH GAP MEASUREMENT FOR EACH SHIM for reference and future reference.
Calculate what shim you will need and order them (or if you have hotcam assortment is even better) if bike gonna be left, put some clean rags in the spark plug holes (to stop any trash or god forbid a shim falling in there)
If your engine does need shims, DRAW or TAKE PICTURES of the oil feed pipes on the right side (above the cams on right) this way when you put it back together you can look at your drawing or pics to get it right, even though they cant go in wrong!
Ziptie camchain to cam sprocket (to stop the chain jumping a tooth or two) do both sprockets.
Unbolt cams EVENLY (I STRESS THIS.................EVENLY) start in the middle loosening them gradually working outwards.
Once the pressure is released you can easily remove the cam holders PUT THESE IN ORDER ON A SHELF AWAY from the bike, I usually have a piece of paper withan arrow POINTING FORWARD then place cam holders in order (yes, they are numbered so you cant mistake the way they go back on....
OK, so all cam are loose now, DO NOT PRY THEM UP in anyway, these suckers are brittle if you pry them wrong and NEVER EVER use a hammer........ lift the cams up just enough to gain access to the bucket, and use a magnet pen to touch the top of bucket and pull straight upwards, this bucket is for this valve NOT ANY OTHER, in other words dont mix the buckets up.
Ok, inside the bucket, flip it upside down and you'll see a shim!!!!!!!! use your finger to pull it out and hopefully theres a number on it (not my luck! it had wore out) its then micrometer time!!!!!!!!
Hopefully, everyone is following me here, no hands up!!!! re read!!!! lol.....
Work your measurements out and order accordingly.......
Once you you have the correct shim, dont take the numbers on it for granted, MEASURE the new one with a micrometer....
If everything is correct, put the shim in the correct hole exactly in the space where the shim sits on top of the valve, it helps if you use a little oil in there too (fingertip)
Once the shim is in the hole/holder push it hard downwards with your finger to seat it.
Lube the correct bucket, and GENTLY....... GENTLY place the bucket over the bucket hole and carefully rock it side to side with very very slight pressure making it slide down until it seats DO NOT FORCE THE BUCKET DOWN........
Now with all the shims that you have changed following the above, replace the cam caps and place them in correct locations.
AGAIN, DONT....... use force bolting them down, work from the middle outwards, this can take upto 20 mins getting the cams to seat EVENLY, once the cam caps are snug and tight (DONT wrench them down hard, just a good snug tight fit will do for now)
Is everyone following me? bcos my fingers are killing me typing all this!!!!!!!
Cut the zipties on the camchain and sprockets, then pull the zipties away from the engine and trash them.
Now, go ahead take the rags out of spark plugs holes and it helps to have a little oil can to pour a little oil on the cams (to help with lubrication) now go ahead and bump the back wheel around a few times (your bike should be on centerstand) once you have turned it a few times, go ahead and measure ALL measurements again with feelergauge.
If your calculations were correct, your a winner.........
Now, use a torque wrench on all cam caps (see manual for specs)
Replace oil feeds on right side (see your drawing or pics that you did)
Once everything is good, go ahead and replace your valve cover and work at your own pace putting your Connie back together and pat your self on the back..................
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Ok, if I mentioned something that displeases anyone with my HELP above, dont jump down my throat.....OK.
I am offering my assistance in everyway that I can, and trying to save you money.....
With that said............. the information sounds technical, it really isnt, honestly it isnt....
And if you really dont feel comfortable doing it yourself, get someone that KNOWS how to do this and if possible you can watch to learn.....
Hope I helped a few out with this thread.....................
Phil.
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If you think thats hard!!!!!! try getting the small tiny bearing out of a Honda 4 wheeler rear drive shaft in the front of the housing...... now thats a mind bender........lol.
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Ok, if I mentioned something that displeases anyone with my HELP above, dont jump down my throat.....OK.
I am offering my assistance in everyway that I can, and trying to save you money.....
With that said............. the information sounds technical, it really isnt, honestly it isnt....
And if you really dont feel comfortable doing it yourself, get someone that KNOWS how to do this and if possible you can watch to learn.....
Hope I helped a few out with this thread.....................
Phil.
Well done Phil, I see no reason why anyone would be offended by your contribution. Your information will probably be all it takes for some of the undecided to summon the courage to jump in and give it a go. Guys like you and me, along with others continue to prove, "Any ass can do it". I also commend you for spending so much time at the keyboard as your comment, "Is everyone following me? bcos my fingers are killing me typing all this!!!!!!!", would only be written by a person who is not a typist. I'm sure many will thank you for your effort.
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THX Bud, I'm all about helping someone out and saving them $$$$$$ I was there one day without $$$$$ and clueless about mechanics.
Many years ago, I would go to my local motorcycle shop and work for free just to learn, Im happy to pass my knowledge on as best as I can.....
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Thx dude, nice primer.
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THX Bud, I'm all about helping someone out and saving them $$$$$$ I was there one day without $$$$$ and clueless about mechanics.
Many years ago, I would go to my local motorcycle shop and work for free just to learn, Im happy to pass my knowledge on as best as I can.....
Depending on where you live, motorcycles can be a mode of daily transportation or just a seasonal toy. I live in Wisconsin and bike shops are few and far between. I basically have a choice between....one. They have two shops 50 miles apart but the upside is they see most of the work done service wise so get (hopefully) good at what they do. Most small shops go out of business here because they don't get enough year round use. If I had a place to do this job it could actually sound like fun but I don't have a good space so if I'm going to do it, it will be done at the ONE dealership I get to deal with. There are several Harley dealerships in the area, perhaps due to the need for constant service but the attitude they have for rice burners is the same that I have for the Cement Wings that they sell. I really appreciate this forum though; it talks about a lot of the things I daily encounter. ;D
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Depending on where you live, motorcycles can be a mode of daily transportation or just a seasonal toy. I live in Wisconsin and bike shops are few and far between. I basically have a choice between....one. They have two shops 50 miles apart but the upside is they see most of the work done service wise so get (hopefully) good at what they do. Most small shops go out of business here because they don't get enough year round use. If I had a place to do this job it could actually sound like fun but I don't have a good space so if I'm going to do it, it will be done at the ONE dealership I get to deal with.
This is hilarious. The BMW rally is held in Wisconsin about every other year. Now I read this and see it's not exactly motorcycle nirvana, it's just because someone that lives there has a lot of power in the BMW group. Ha.
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Bud, Ok, maybe my English is throwing you a wee bit (raised in UK)
Nothing wrong with that......me too.
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Ok, if I mentioned something that displeases anyone with my HELP above, dont jump down my throat.....OK.
Oh, I don't think anyone is going to do that, Phil, are we? :goodpost:
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Having just checked valve clearance on my 08 @ the 36K service interval, I can say the difficulty is not actual valve train, but the access! Who's bright idea was it to put a frame 5" above! :o The Tupperware was an easy removal when compared to my CBR. The Connie has been an excellent bike, never a hick-up so far.
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, I can say the difficulty is not actual valve train, but the access! Who's bright idea was it to put a frame 5" above! :o The Tupperware was an easy removal when compared to my CBR. The Connie has been an excellent bike, never a hick-up so far.
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Exactly what I thought when I took the tank off!!!!! Remember the good ol'e days of the Suzuki GS and Kawasaki Z's, 10 min spark plug changes.......... Now it takes 10 mins pondering how the bloody tank comes off!!!!! lol
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Im doing the valve shims on a Suzuki GSXR 750 right now, I'll take pics and upload here tomorrow, its basically the same set up (upper engine ) as the Connie..
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/feelergaugephil/2012-03-21190334.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/feelergaugephil/2012-03-22170625.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/feelergaugephil/2012-03-22174227.jpg)
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feelergaugephil,
Not to nit pick, as I don't want to discourage your enthusiasm to offer help and suggestions (or anyone else), but there were a few inaccuracies in the information you provided.
The C14 has solid cam gears, so using zip ties to hold the cam chain to the gears doesn't work so well, unless you have something else in mind (please elaborate if so).
The lower cover uses a o-ring, so no gasket worries there. It appears the factory put some additional sealant (Hylomar perhaps) on that cover too, so one might consider doing the same.
As for removing the fuel tank, it does nothing to help with access to the valves on the C14. The fuel tank is nowhere near the work area. Also, the frame above the throttle bodies and valve cover is one piece, completely blocking access from above.
Other than that, great info. Thanks!
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Sure glad I am not gonna dick around with this.
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Made the same decision AH (After Haroldo).
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I wouldn't blame you guys at all. After pulling the plastic and seeing what else had to come off just to get to the valve cover, I can honestly say this is the first job I actually stepped back and questioned if I would have enough time to do it, and get it back together, before I completely forgot where everything came from / goes. Even with keeping things organized on dis-assembly, and taking pictures, there's a lot of little stuff. Plus, lots of things only come out one way, and in a specific order.
It's not back together yet, so I'm not out of the woods till it is. Still, I prefer to know that all tolerances are as good as I can make them, rather than wonder if some shop monkey cut corners on the job. That's my motivation.
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Have heard of motorcycle mechanics who were asked what bikes they would not like to work on, the C14 was near the top of the list.