Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Coomers on February 21, 2012, 09:42:33 PM
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Anybody know how many dBA’s our Conny’s make with a full Area P system at 5000 RPM?
We now have a new bylaw here stating if the bike makes more than 100dBA that you will be fined between $400 – $25,000 for your first offense and up to $50,000 for your second offense.
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A by-law, as in some HOA? Better move out...
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100Db is pretty loud... Check the comparisons here: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html (http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html)
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I want to say it is around 92, we did some testing a coupla years ago and I was right at the acceptable limit for a bike I could ride to classes. I will see if they still have the data. I also know that the db rating is stepped based on displacement, at least in WA State. I'll send off an email after posting ot the folks I work for, should have an answer in a day or two. If I haven't replied back by Friday, shoot me a PM, CRS sucks!!!
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98 to 99 dBA
You know, it's on their website....
http://www.areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php (http://www.areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php)
So, you're doing 5k rpm in a subdivision? If so, then lower the rpms until you leave.
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98 to 99 dBA
You know, it's on their website....
http://www.areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php (http://www.areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php)
So, you're doing 5k rpm in a subdivision? If so, then lower the rpms until you leave.
Could be Maine: http://motorsportsnewswire.wordpress.com/tag/100-dba/ (http://motorsportsnewswire.wordpress.com/tag/100-dba/) but I guess the same applies, lower the RPM ;D
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Thanks for all your replies. According to the website it is 98-99dBA at 5000 rpm. That is awfully close and this may change once I add the ZX14 TB’S that I have on my bench.
This isn’t a HOA it is the city of Oakville just outside of Toronto Ontario, they are taking the lead from another community called Caledon just north of them. The law is if the police suspect that your bike has an aftermarket exhaust, they are allowed to pull you over and test your bike. Depending on the number of cylinders if it is more that 100dBA at 20”at 5000rpm you’re done.
I thought I would be ok then yesterday I ran the bike up to 5000rpm wile on the stand, something I have never done before and was surprised how loud it was. It certainly doesn’t sound that loud while riding.
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That's cause it's all behind you...
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There are several states with noise laws and laws requiring that the exhaust systems be OEM and not altered. But I have yet to see or hear of anyone getting pulled over for it. Not saying it couldn't happen, but the possibility is slim I think.
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I would advise verifying how Area-P measured their quoted value and how the Police will be checking it.
dBA is a standard method for measuring sound pressure level but the value will change depending on how it is measured.
Variables include the distance from the source, the angle relative to the source, and the type of sound.
Some harsher noises may "sound" louder than other softer noises but are in fact the same.
This is due to our perception of what we hear.
Motorcycle engines normally fall into the harsher category but you should be fine.
Most of the bikes this type of legislation is aimed at are the open-piped Hardleys and streetbikes running race mufflers.
If your muffler is sold as street legal then it should be fine.
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Why not ask to have it tested by the police. Then if pulled over you can show the test to the cop.
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I would advise verifying how Area-P measured their quoted value and how the Police will be checking it.
dBA is a standard method for measuring sound pressure level but the value will change depending on how it is measured.
Variables include the distance from the source, the angle relative to the source, and the type of sound.
Some harsher noises may "sound" louder than other softer noises but are in fact the same.
This is due to our perception of what we hear.
Motorcycle engines normally fall into the harsher category but you should be fine.
Most of the bikes this type of legislation is aimed at are the open-piped Hardleys and streetbikes running race mufflers.
If your muffler is sold as street legal then it should be fine.
If it doesn't have an EPA stamp on it, he can still be fined.
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.....Less than 100dBA at 20”at 5000rpm
20 inches....Good luck on that one...... ::)
I believe most ordinances are measured 6-8 FEET from the bike....
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If it doesn't have an EPA stamp on it, he can still be fined.
Does the EPA have jurisdiction in Canada?
100dB is pretty loud... I don't think I'd want something that loud on my bike... except for the horn, of course.
The fact that his community has recently passed this means that they WILL be looking for it, at least for a while. I'm with Bosco... confirm that their criteria is 5000 RPM at 20", and try to run that test yourself... so you are informed if you ever get pulled over.
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It can't be more than 100dBA @ 20 inches? That's ridiculous. 20 feet I could see...
I'm gonna get my sound level meter out and see how loud my Area P slip on is.
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No, all- powerful as the EPA can be, its jurisdiction does not cross international borders.
We are seeing a lot of motorcycle exhaust attention from LEO's here in the northeast US too. It is the result of so many bikes with open pipes and the fact that exhaust rules (both emissions and noise) have not really been enforced for quite a few years and the situation has gotten out of hand.
As someone already said, all exhausts used on motorcycles in the US have to be qualified by the fed. gov't. Further, the exhausts are qualified on a specific motorcycle. Factory mufflers carry a certification number while most aftermarket exhausts do not. So an aftermarket exhaust is technically illegal because it has not specifically been made legal (kind of backwards but this is how it works) What we are seeing here is that blanket law being applied to specific motorcycles; an LEO rarely bothers anyone unless the bike hurt his ears and shook the car windows in the first place. Upon inspection, it turns out to be an uncertified exhaust.
Several communities in this area are also using pretty large fines for bikes that are "too loud". The problem is trying to define an actual sound pressure measurement; it is difficult to get a valid measurement and even things like what kind of ground is under the vehicle makes large changes in the readings so it is easy to challenge any tickets in court. But just finding an aftermarket (and uncertified) exhaust on a motorcycle is a much easier way to ticket the rider without having to quantify or measure anything like the actual sound output.
Brian
Does the EPA have jurisdiction in Canada?
100dB is pretty loud... I don't think I'd want something that loud on my bike... except for the horn, of course.
The fact that his community has recently passed this means that they WILL be looking for it, at least for a while. I'm with Bosco... confirm that their criteria is 5000 RPM at 20", and try to run that test yourself... so you are informed if you ever get pulled over.
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The Harleys around here will have to go first , because there are all straight pipes.yes the full area p is loud but not as loud as the Harleys. Here in south west Pa. ;D
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Maine is tough. There is a biker bar in Southern Maine called Bentley's. This place gets bikes from all over. I think they even have a campground at it. After Maine pushed the aftermarket exhaust law, they simply grabbed all the bikes going to this place from all directions. Probably hundreds of tickets (if not thousands) once the law passed. I have left mine stock, because I run through 3 states daily and they all have different rules.
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Area P took its measurements from a 45 degree angle. I bet the average cop wouldn’t know to do that.
I like Bosco’s suggestion of going to the police station and having it tested. If it passes then I have something to show the cop if I get pulled over or the judge.
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Does the EPA have jurisdiction in Canada?
My bad. No, but CEPA basically follows EPA rules for simplicity... so... never know.
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We now have a new bylaw here stating if the bike makes more than 100dBA that you will be fined between $400 – $25,000 for your first offense and up to $50,000 for your second offense.
Kewl!!! I wish they had such laws here. Although 100dBA is too high- 80 is the federal EPA standard in the USA (one would think it would be similar in Canada). But $25,000+ fines are more than a little insane (I mean, why not $100,000 or $600,000??? Geesh), a $500 first offense and $1000 second would surely be high enough... I STRONGLY support noise pollution laws, but they are often very vague and unfortunately, very difficult to enforce. Most don't even list distance, which is a critical part of measurement. Here, the damn boom box cars are more annoying than motorcycles, but both can be a big problem.
Generally, all stock exhaust systems should be safe.
http://www.noiseoff.org/motorcycles.php (http://www.noiseoff.org/motorcycles.php)
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Kewl!!! I wish they had such laws here. Although 100dBA is too high- 80 is the federal EPA standard in the USA (one would think it would be similar in Canada). But $25,000+ fines are more than a little insane (I mean, why not $100,000 or $600,000??? Geesh), a $500 first offense and $1000 second would surely be high enough... I STRONGLY support noise pollution laws, but they are often very vague and unfortunately, very difficult to enforce. Most don't even list distance, which is a critical part of measurement. Here, the damn boom box cars are more annoying than motorcycles, but both can be a big problem.
Generally, all stock exhaust systems should be safe.
http://www.noiseoff.org/motorcycles.php (http://www.noiseoff.org/motorcycles.php)
The EPA standard of 80, without any qualification, is a pretty bold statement. First off, this requirement is for one year or 3750 miles from the original purchase date. Secondly, it is determined using very strict measurement & testing criteria (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=ecfr;cc=ecfr;sid=b7194ef9c3ac23439d410eb00e7355db;region=DIV1;q1=motorcycle%20noise;rgn=div6;view=text;idno=40;node=40%3A25.0.1.2.11.5 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=ecfr;cc=ecfr;sid=b7194ef9c3ac23439d410eb00e7355db;region=DIV1;q1=motorcycle%20noise;rgn=div6;view=text;idno=40;node=40%3A25.0.1.2.11.5), that no local LEO would be able to cost effectively administer. ;)
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My next door neighbor runs a H Davidson shop out of his garage $$ custom chopper bikes and the like , he has 7.5 acres so he has a long driveway , (dragstrip ) REAL LOUD, he has lots of cops that are his friends ( you should meet some of the undercover cops , you would never believe they are cops) It would not faze me if they passed a noise law here.
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The EPA standard of 80, without any qualification, is a pretty bold statement. First off, this requirement is for one year or 3750 miles from the original purchase date. Secondly, it is determined using very strict measurement & testing criteria (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=ecfr;cc=ecfr;sid=b7194ef9c3ac23439d410eb00e7355db;region=DIV1;q1=motorcycle%20noise;rgn=div6;view=text;idno=40;node=40%3A25.0.1.2.11.5 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=ecfr;cc=ecfr;sid=b7194ef9c3ac23439d410eb00e7355db;region=DIV1;q1=motorcycle%20noise;rgn=div6;view=text;idno=40;node=40%3A25.0.1.2.11.5), that no local LEO would be able to cost effectively administer. ;)
Well, it isn't my statement, but "Nose-off's". The regulations are typical, hard-to-read legal stuff, but they are saying that not only do they have to be under 80dbA (as then defined), but designed to remain that way for at least 1 year or 3750 miles. I assume that wording is there to ensure that whatever is used in the silencer is not designed to "wear out" or something.
A lot of local/state noise regs try to just point to the EPA "stamp", saying that if a motorcycle doesn't have an already EPA approved silencing system, it is automatically illegal, without even needing to measure the actual sound levels. Of course, that is easy to defeat by simply modifying an already EPA approved (presumably OEM) system in ways that cannot be visually detected.
Actually trying to measure sound pressures, as you (and I) both say, is not really an easy task, because it can depend on so many factors. Most people could probably immediately know when a vehicle would be in violation (by just listening), but proving it is difficult in the real world. A bike could be just fine except over X rpm or over X throttle, and might be in violation for only a second. Even if that caught the attention of an officer, the event is over and at some unknown distance. Without it being overly complex, about they only thing they could realistically do is look for the certification "stamp" and ticket if it has none.
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Well, it isn't my statement, but "Nose-off's". The regulations are typical, hard-to-read legal stuff, but they are saying that not only do they have to be under 80dbA (as then defined), but designed to remain that way for at least 1 year or 3750 miles. I assume that wording is there to ensure that whatever is used in the silencer is not designed to "wear out" or something.
A lot of local/state noise regs try to just point to the EPA "stamp", saying that if a motorcycle doesn't have an already EPA approved silencing system, it is automatically illegal, without even needing to measure the actual sound levels. Of course, that is easy to defeat by simply modifying an already EPA approved (presumably OEM) system in ways that cannot be visually detected.
Actually trying to measure sound pressures, as you (and I) both say, is not really an easy task, because it can depend on so many factors. Most people could probably immediately know when a vehicle would be in violation (by just listening), but proving it is difficult in the real world. A bike could be just fine except over X rpm or over X throttle, and might be in violation for only a second. Even if that caught the attention of an officer, the event is over and at some unknown distance. Without it being overly complex, about they only thing they could realistically do is look for the certification "stamp" and ticket if it has none.
Agreed! My only point is that some organisations tend to grab a bit of a regulation, such as noise-offs statement about 80dba, and 'preach' that as gospel. I understood that the 80dba was noise-off's statement, not yours. I apologize if it came across that way.
Cheers!
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Depending on the number of cylinders if it is more that 100dBA at 20” at 5000rpm you’re done.
At 20" it will fail. I think the OEM exhaust might fail at 20". Are you sure it isn't 20m or at least 20 ft? Straight behind or 90 deg to the side?
My Termignoni equipped Ducati is 104 dB at 1m to the rear at 1300 RPM.
Go to Radio Shack and pick up one of their sound meters. They are not expensive. You can test it. If the test is with no load you will get the lowest reading the bike will give. If it's close, e-mail me or search for the correction curves for the meter. They read low at low frequencies.
It it still fails, search out a "dB Eater". That should cut 10 dB without killing your HP too bad. Keeps my Duc from being anti-social like the cruisers.
Final resort is to challenge the calibration and accuracy of the meter in court. Worth the fight for $15k. A really accurate meter might well cost $25k. Would the government agency spend that?
I think your described fines are ridiculous and any field testing protocol would be unenforceable as unrepeatable and inaccurate, but I am quite in favor of noise ordinances. I'm sick of cruisers hurting my ears even while I am wearing ear plugs.
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At 20" it will fail. I think the OEM exhaust might fail at 20". Are you sure it isn't 20m or at least 20 ft? Straight behind or 90 deg to the side?
Yeah, hard to believe it could be 20"
It it still fails, search out a "dB Eater". That should cut 10 dB without killing your HP too bad. Keeps my Duc from being anti-social like the cruisers.
If the flow is no worse than OEM, on an otherwise stock bike, it will not affect power. There is still this common misconception that a muffler swap on a stock bike will significantly increase HP... it doesn't. Might look cool. Might sound different. Might save some weight. But performance it is not.
I think your described fines are ridiculous
Insanely ridiculous.
but I am quite in favor of noise ordinances. I'm sick of cruisers hurting my ears even while I am wearing ear plugs.
Amen
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Relating to Area P and sound levels - Information noted below on our C-14 website page to assist
SOUND
The sound readings are taken statically using the standard 20" test at 45°. Slip-On exhaust tone is very different, though the actual decibel levels are very similar. Very low frequency.
Full System - An all gear cruising and to the soft limiter sound byte is noted below. Exhaust tone is very deep, low frequency. Sounds awesome. Muffler is positioned slightly under the bag to assist deflection and attenuation of sound.
Idle 5000rpm
Stock 77-78 dbA 92-93 dbA
Slip-On 83-84 dbA 92-93 dbA
Full System 86 - 87 dbA 98 - 99 dbA
We utilize one of the higher end Extech models (there are a lot of them) and Calibrator to log Sound level data that is fairly accurate and repeatable. For consistency, all tests are done in the same location, same person, and as closely as possible - same overall environmental conditions. Less expensive meters will provide a lot of fluctuation, as do the surroundings and parameters which you are testing. We've seen many less expensive (even more expensive if they are not consistently tested for calibration) have +/- factors of 2 - 5 dbA. In our world, that is a huge difference! Ambient noise from other sources, how you test, where you test, meter accuracy, etc, etc, are all important for consistency. Loose body work, levers, the mileage it has (high or low), even an aftermarket air filter will/can make a difference. We've seen completely stock, brand new bikes test +/- 2 dbA under the most anal of testing conditions. Sound pressure/levels/frequencies can be perceived very differently by each person. Quiet to one, is loud to another (and vice/versa). It is very subjective.
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We had this happen in Bismarck, ND a few years ago. I was on an '85 Honda Shadow at the time. Some random aftermarket slip ons. They did the same thing you are describing, they could pull anyone over (not just bikes) and make you rev your vehicle. They would stick the meter right up behind your exhaust and you'd get the ticket every time. We finally got enough people together and we were able to fight it. They allowed the law to be changed so that we had to be "witnessed" breaking a certain level before we could be tested. The witness level was lower by so many dB. I do not remember the actual values anymore. But they could pull you over after they caught you at a certain level (Usually from them standing on the sidewalk) they would then test you, and if you broke the higher level then, then you got the ticket.
Id work like a mad man to get a group together to fight this if I were you. We got 3 or 4 motorcycle groups and some of the car groups in town to get this in court and finally reversed.
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But loud pipes save lives.... :battle:
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Maine is tough. There is a biker bar in Southern Maine called Bentley's. This place gets bikes from all over. I think they even have a campground at it. After Maine pushed the aftermarket exhaust law, they simply grabbed all the bikes going to this place from all directions. Probably hundreds of tickets (if not thousands) once the law passed. I have left mine stock, because I run through 3 states daily and they all have different rules.
Not to mention all the drunks leaving Bentley's. One of the groups I ride with makes an annual pilgrimage to Bentleys and it is fun, but it's not a place you see a lot of ST's and sport bikes.
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Maine is tough. There is a biker bar in Southern Maine called Bentley's. This place gets bikes from all over. I think they even have a campground at it. After Maine pushed the aftermarket exhaust law, they simply grabbed all the bikes going to this place from all directions. Probably hundreds of tickets (if not thousands) once the law passed. I have left mine stock, because I run through 3 states daily and they all have different rules.
There's a place like that a couple of hours away from me, it's called Poopy's. They have tent camping in the back lot, live bands on the weekends, a tattoo parlor, and certified HD mechanics on staff. I was there once to eat, great wings. It was at Poopy's where I saw/heard, for the first time, the ridiculous ritual of HD riders reving the crap out of their bikes while the rest of the folks sitting around drinking cheered them on. One of the most asinine things that I’ve ever witnessed in my life.
Now I hear that Poopy's has a new way to draw the cream of the crop to their bar. They have a ring set up and are holding tough man competitions on the weekends. Oh boy. :o
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I ate at Poopy's last year, the burgers were great, the crowd.......not so much. I might as well of pissed in their beers when I rolled in on my C14. There were four or five Harley guys that were standing around and looked at me like I had a eight inch appendage growing from my forehead. There was also a VMax owners meet going on and they had a burnout competition that was very interesting as they left the parking lot. Savanah was a cool little town right there on the river.
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I ate at Poopy's last year, the burgers were great, the crowd.......not so much. I might as well of pissed in their beers when I rolled in on my C14. There were four or five Harley guys that were standing around and looked at me like I had a eight appendage growing from my forehead. There was also a VMax owners meet going on and they had a burnout competition that was very interesting as they left the parking lot. Savanah was a cool little town right there on the river.
Did you see that campground (Seven Eagles) about a mile or so south of Poopy's on 84? It's a seasonal place and we used to keep our 5th wheel there. The bands at Poopy's would play so loud on the weekends that you could tell if it was a good band or not from the campground. :o
Did you park your bike in the front lot or the back? I'd guess the front, you might have never got out of the back lot with your C14 intact. The one time that we were there I wasn't on the bike cuz I wanted to have a few beers along with my wings.
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I remember seeing a campground but don't recall where. We parked in the back lot since it wasn't horribly busy that early in the afternoon. That day was kind of a blur after eating at Poopy's we turned around and went back through town (up the steep hill) back towards Rockford. I think it was Blackjack IIRC and I got a nice reminder of how good the roads were from the Jo Daviees County Deputy. ;D I didn't ride like my hair was on fire any more until I got out of Illinois.
Edit: just checked and it was Scenic Ridge road that I had a blast on.
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I remember seeing a campground but don't recall where. We parked in the back lot since it wasn't horribly busy that early in the afternoon. That day was kind of a blur after eating at Poopy's we turned around and went back through town (up the steep hill) back towards Rockford. I think it was Blackjack IIRC and I got a nice reminder of how good the roads were from the Jo Daviees County Deputy. ;D I didn't ride like my hair was on fire any more until I got out of Illinois.
Edit: just checked and it was Scenic Ridge road that I had a blast on.
Blackjack is fun and Scenic Ridge has some very nice sweepers. Did you get on Stagecoach Trail at all? That's another nice road.
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Blackjack is fun and Scenic Ridge has some very nice sweepers. Did you get on Stagecoach Trail at all? That's another nice road.
Stagecoach trail was a nice road but there was some sort of bicycle race that had police positioned along the route that made that area a nightmare. Our group had to turn around at least five times within 30-45 minutes. It was also rainy that morning when we rode through that area so speeds were very slow. I would like to get back up there to ride again. I have a buddy in Rockford that hosted a ride so that is why I was up there. My expectations were pretty low for good roads but I was very pleasantly surprised.
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I ate at Poopy's last year, the burgers were great, the crowd.......not so much. I might as well of pissed in their beers when I rolled in on my C14. There were four or five Harley guys that were standing around and looked at me like I had a eight appendage growing from my forehead.
Well, it is not your fault. Many (maybe even most) HD owners are just incredibly insecure. It comes from riding overpriced, slow, loud, uncomfortable, vibratory, under-performing, unreliable, low-tech vehicles. It is like a huge group effort among them all to keep trying to convince themselves how wonderful their ancient tech is and how manly they are for putting up with it. I can't believe you would even go to such a place on a "real" bike!
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Well, it is not your fault. Many (maybe even most) HD owners are just incredibly insecure. It comes from riding overpriced, slow, loud, uncomfortable, vibratory, under-performing, unreliable, low-tech vehicles. It is like a huge group effort among them all to keep trying to convince themselves how wonderful their ancient tech is and how manly they are for putting up with it. I can't believe you would even go to such a place on a "real" bike!
Most Harley owners I have dealt with are fine, but there are a few that are just beyond help. I guess they are the same ones that never return a fellow motorcyclist's wave, unless you are riding a certain type of bike. ::)
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There are riders and bikers. What's the differance? Attitude/s. I think it is fairly safe to say that most or this forums members, the vast majority even, are riders. All brands have riders and bikers. I think it's fun to poke at HD riders, but I ignore the bikers, no differant than they me. Do most people really dislike the loudness of a vehicle or is it the lack of respect they generate? Both sides of the respect spectrum, eh?
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I have owned many different brands of motorcycles and I loved every single one of them. I can't imagine tying myself down to one brand my whole life, how boring. Harleys' are raw, very mechanical machines that are unnecessarily heavy, slow, and loud (and expensive). I can't for life of me understand why one would make such a big monetary investment for a product that has been proven many times over to be unreliable, and inferior to other products.
Edit: In regard to being a biker of a rider...I don't know what I am. I will gladly ride the he!! out of any motorcycle handed to me regardless of the brand, and have a blast doing it. I just really like riding anything with two wheels.