Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: medicevans on May 19, 2011, 01:56:36 PM
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Steve, I know on the "old board" you wrote up a big thing explaining your different cam grinds you've developed. I know I'm interested in them and why/how they are better and I bet a lot of other people are too. I'm really liking the extra torque the 2mm and adv exhaust sprocket has given me, how much more would a cam grind add?
Can you explain it to all of us again?
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Thanks Brian, I'm really busy right now trying to get a 1052cc zg1000 engine assembled, so I'm going to answer piecemeal. I'll start by posting up a dyno chart. This chart was done on the same day / time, 2 different 04 connies of appx the same mileage. the TODD bike was by far the strongest connie I've ever seen on a dyno, to the point that it's almost hard to believe; the OCAMPO bike has my TORQUE cams in it, which is the stock replacement cam I'm offerering. As you see, the bike with my cams outpowers the monster bike to just over 7000 rpm. In fact, look at the 3500 area. Now think of your normal riding... which bike do you think would be quicker for most connie riders? Steve
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Eagerly awaiting more, but by all means keep working on the bike so someone else can experience your magic.
So how do your torque cam curves look next to a more normal bike? Also, how does the torque curve compare between an exhaust sprocket bike and a torque cam bike? Forgive me if this is all going to be addressed later, just my personal questions. I can be an overbearing eager beaver when I'm learning new stuff.
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Here's a dyno chart of the same bike, before with stock cams, advanced EX cam sprocket, 2 mm jet kit, and after with my power grind . Steve
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Here's a dyno chart of the same bike, before with stock cams, advanced EX cam sprocket, 2 mm jet kit, and after with my power grind . Steve
:goodpost: WOW that is an impressive change. I was almost drooling while looking at that torque curve. :hail:
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thanks Chris, it actually is a big change - folks don't realise how difficult it is to get more torque at lower rpms without boring the engine. Cams can make big power at high rpms by virtue of raising the RPM ceiling, and HP is a function of RPM. At lower rpms the only way to increase the torque is to increase the abilty to get the charge moving quickly and trap it before it escapes. That's what both these cam grinds do. The best part is that the torque cams are ground on stock cores, and the price is 275.00... a small price to pay if you have damaged cams and / or want more grunt from the engine without spending huge bux. Steve
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Steve,
Just to clarify, the first chart you posted is with the torque grind, which are ground on stock ZG cams, and the second chart is with the power/ high lift grind, which are ground on ZX cams, correct? I only ask because in your last post you mention the torque cams as though they are the ones in your second chart, so I was confused. :nuts:
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Gary - you're correct - what i was refering to about the torque cams was that the price is very reasonable. Steve
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Dammit, more stuff I didn't know I needed!!! :thumbs:
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Dammit, more stuff I didn't know I needed!!! :thumbs:
Yep... so far I want everything SISF has made for us!
BTW, love your forum pic! That's one tough kittie!
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Dammit, more stuff I didn't know I needed!!! :thumbs:
No kidding right! Like I need more winter projects! However, after riding with the adv exhaust sprocket and 2min mod, I'm addicted to torque. I think sending my cams in this winter might be in my future........Steve, what's the turn around like?
Also, I know that in personal emails to you, you said there would be no reason to stack the sprocket on the torque grind as the torque grind put the valves in the position of the adv sprocket anyway. I'm assuming you can't go ahead and stack them because further advancing the exhaust valves on top of the cams would mean negative clearance?
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There seems to be quite a few addictive personalities on this forum. No wonder I feel right at home.
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Thanks Brian, I'm really busy right now trying to get a 1052cc zg1000 engine assembled, so I'm going to answer piecemeal. I'll start by posting up a dyno chart. This chart was done on the same day / time, 2 different 04 connies of appx the same mileage. the TODD bike was by far the strongest connie I've ever seen on a dyno, to the point that it's almost hard to believe; the OCAMPO bike has my TORQUE cams in it, which is the stock replacement cam I'm offerering. As you see, the bike with my cams outpowers the monster bike to just over 7000 rpm. In fact, look at the 3500 area. Now think of your normal riding... which bike do you think would be quicker for most connie riders? Steve
Steve, what jetting changes (from stock) on the Campo/Torque Cam bike?
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Which ZX are the power cams ground on again?
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Which ZX are the power cams ground on again?
1984-85 ZX/ GPz900 or 1986-87 ZX/ GPz1000. I have a set that I'm waiting to get ground, plus an extra set for someone else. ;) :D
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oops - missed some questions - here ya go -
Turn around is immediate. I have cams ground and ready to go. I have a core return program in effect, so when you do the swap and ship your old cams back, I refund the core deposit.
as far as using my advanced exhaust cam sprocket aND the new cam grind, I don't advise it. the advanced sprocket is designed for the stock cam profile, the replacement / torque cams are appropriately timed already, just install in the specified position on the sprockets and you're done. Keep in mind that my advanced exhaust cam sprocket still has all the nessessary stock timing holes, so if you have my sprocket you just shift to the round countersink holes when using the new cams and you're good to go.
Jetting - the Ocampo bike does have my dedicated 2 minute mod jet kit installed. Stock jetting will work, the 2mm jet kit works a bit better - HTH, Steve
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Turn around is immediate. I have cams ground and ready to go. I have a core return program in effect, so when you do the swap and ship your old cams back, I refund the core deposit.
as far as using my advanced exhaust cam sprocket aND the new cam grind, I don't advise it. the advanced sprocket is designed for the stock cam profile, the replacement / torque cams are appropriately timed already, just install in the specified position on the sprockets and you're done. Keep in mind that my advanced exhaust cam sprocket still has all the nessessary stock timing holes, so if you have my sprocket you just shift to the round countersink holes when using the new cams and you're good to go.
Steve, it sounds like there is a little confusion. Here is the info as I understand it.
Let me know if I have this correct.
NOTE: I have the Power Grind in my 03 (2 Min Mod to follow)
All I can say is,,,, WOW!!! :thumbs:
You have 2 Cam Grinds
Torque Grind (ZG Cam) Does not require Advance Sprocket "Plot" (#1) Torque increase starts at lower RPM. Available now from Steve
GREAT for the twisties or 2 up riding!!!!!!
Power Grind (ZX Cam) "Does" require Advance Sprocket "Plot" (#2) Torque increase starts a bit higher RPM than "TG" has some peak HP increase over stock or PG Cams
"Not in stock" Requires ZX Cams for grinding "REALLY" GREAT for the twisties or 2 up riding!!!!!!
NOTE: To help share the fun with other COGgers, Gary and I have 2 sets of ZX Cams we are willing to offer (fer what we paid ($75)) to any COGger
that wants to do a Power Grind
Ride safe, Ted
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Ted, I posted both dyno charts, the first is the torque grind, the second is the power grind. the torque grind does not require the advanced sprocket, the power grind does. It has to do with the way the grinder has to orient the power grind, it has so much lift that he has to set the exhaust cam slightly retarded in order to have enough meat to cut from. HTH, Steve
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Ok, I went back and corrected my post. (Hopefully I got it right)
Is there a way to post the 2 Grind Plots together (on one chart) for us Computer illiterates?
Ride safe, Ted
PS: I talked to Gary. We discussed what we paid and decided that we have $75 in each set of our ZX Cams.
If anyone opts to do the power Grind, and if you can't find another set, let us know.
But, if you can find another set somewhere... Buy it!!
They are getting hard to find...
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Gary sent me information on a s of ZX-900 Cams that are available on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KAWASAKI-GPZ900-GPZ-900-ZX900-NINJA-CAM-CAMS-SHAFTS-85-/110686543759?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19c56e9f8f (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KAWASAKI-GPZ900-GPZ-900-ZX900-NINJA-CAM-CAMS-SHAFTS-85-/110686543759?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19c56e9f8f)
Ride safe, Ted
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If anyone is interested in the power cams, now is the time - I think we have almost enough sets to get the price way down - like 275.00 shipped back to you - so let's get it together and make it happen - Steve
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This is a heck of a deal. The one I have was one of the original prototypes and cost quite a bit more than $275.
I want to have one ground for my sons Connie, so, Count me in.
Ride safe, Ted
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I'm in as well.
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But, for "normal" riding I'm thinking I want the torque grind?? I very seldome get over 6k rpm.
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I still want the power grind, but I'm curious as to how much higher the extra torque starts with the power grind vs the torque grind. Looking at the dyno charts, power still makes more torque than torque grind even at only 3k rpm.
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The power grind has more lift, but apx the same duration as the replacement torque cams. That said, the duration controls the rpm range, the lift controls how much power is made in that range. In this case, the extra lift helps the power grind make better power for higher rpms than the torque cams by virtue of the improved ability to fill the cylinder. For someone who rarely goes over 6000 rpm, there's no reason to consider the power cams. You'll get virtually the same power with the torque cams, and the torque cams are going to be nicer to the rest of the valvetrain because of the shorter lift and less abrupt ramps. for someone who will wring the engine out to 9000 but wan't low end and really snappy midrange, the power cams are the way to go. Verrry linear and always there when you pull the throttle. Steve
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The power grind has more lift, but approx the same duration as the replacement torque cams.
For someone who will wring the engine out to 9000 but wan't low end and really snappy midrange, the power cams are the way to go. Verrry linear and always there when you pull the throttle. Steve
Well said. Best explanation of the cams I've read.
If you like to play in the twisties, the Power cams give you the best of both worlds. More low end and more on top......
If your a more mellow rider, the Torque cams arefor you!!!
Side note: I went to the Wildflower ride in Kerrville. While riding the twisties there, I normally have to use lower gears to ride the curves the way I want.
(We're not racing, we like to cruise thru the straights, push thru the curvies, then cruise to the next curves).
This time, With the new cams, I rode most of the weekend in 5th or 6th gear. Didn't have to down shift to get thru the turns. Resulted in smoother entry's/exits.
Hard to eplain, but I think I went faster thru the curves with more control.
I did shift down to the lower gears a few times. The power was definitely "there" when I wanted it!!! Goes like heck! With the extra mid range power from the cams, I just didn't feel the need to scream the engine....
Ride safe, Ted
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The power grind has more lift, but apx the same duration as the replacement torque cams. That said, the duration controls the rpm range, the lift controls how much power is made in that range. In this case, the extra lift helps the power grind make better power for higher rpms than the torque cams by virtue of the improved ability to fill the cylinder. For someone who rarely goes over 6000 rpm, there's no reason to consider the power cams. You'll get virtually the same power with the torque cams, and the torque cams are going to be nicer to the rest of the valvetrain because of the shorter lift and less abrupt ramps. for someone who will wring the engine out to 9000 but wan't low end and really snappy midrange, the power cams are the way to go. Verrry linear and always there when you pull the throttle. Steve
I also lean toward the "torque cams" because of the ease on the valve train. Is the extra "power" from the power cams that noticable over the torque cams? Will the power cams really hammer the valve train?
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Will the power cams really hammer the valve train?
I have the power cams and I did a valve adjustment (and to have a look) at 13k miles since installing them.
I can tell you that the cams and followers were totally smooth and shiny with no sign of wear. I am very pleased with them.
Near the end of July before heading to the Nationals in Vermont I will have another look and I should have over 20k on these cams by then.
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I also lean toward the "torque cams" because of the ease on the valve train. Is the extra "power" from the power cams that noticable over the torque cams? Will the power cams really hammer the valve train?
since you rarely exceed 6000, going to the power cams would be an unnessessary expense that you'ld not get the benefit from. Remember that the power cams are ground on zx1000 cores, so you'ld have to buy cams before you could even get them ground, and you'ld have to do it quick-like, cus there's gonna be a special power cam grinding going on in a couple weeks... :o Steve
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I received my new SiSF (Power) Cams from Steve last week.
I already have a set in my bike and really like the power!!
My intention was to give them to my son for his Connie. But his bike "may" be up for sale.
So, at this point I'm not sure if I'm going to hold them to put in a 1052, or let my son have them for his Connie.
Will have to see what his decision is onkeeping his Connie.
Ride safe, Ted
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I have 4 sets of torque cams and one set of power cams in stock as of now... :o Steve
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Take it from me. ;D
Someone needs to jump on the Power Cam, NOW! :thumbs:
To build the Power Cams, Steve has to start with an old ZX Cam, and have it ground with a "Special" Grind.
There are very few ZX Cams available to do the grind.
So, there will NOT be many of the Power Cams made...
(I have "2") <happy grin> :rotflmao:
Ride safe, Ted