Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: AaronJM on January 23, 2012, 09:14:56 PM
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I've become a bit paranoid about changing the final drive fluid. With well documented issues with the drain plug hole stripping out I wonder if there isn't another way. Would it be possible to draw out the fluid through the fill hole using a hand-held pump like a mighty-vac? Am I crazy to even be concerned about it? Also is it true that wearing tin-foil on your head keeps the FBI from reading your thoughts and planting subliminal messages? :)
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Color me Irish, but, what well documented issues?
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You just snug it tight with a wrench "not socket".........that easy.
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Yes, there is another way- do what the "through hole" BMW owners did when they had to change the final drive lube- disconnect the drive and turn it upside down. The lube will run right out of the filler hole.
Another possibility might be to use a mandrel and bend a piece of tubing to an inner diameter (of the bend radius, not the tubing radius) very slightly larger than the centerline diameter of the ring gear; insert the tip of the tube into the filler hole and drive it about the inside of the drive housing so the the tip rests on the bottom and then suck all the lube out (easy boys!).
Yet another method might be to remove the drain plug but instead of replacing it and thereby running the risk that it might strip the threads, use an aftermarket rubber plug made for stripped oil pan drain holes. They work OK but they are cheap enough so you can use a new one each time.
A good method also might be to start off as above but instead of re-using the drain plug, just pack the drain hole with cotton loose weave with a hammer and punch. This is the way old shipwrights drove cotton in-between the planks of ships so they did not leak..... so fast.
Finally, you could get a large diameter hose clamp and a piece of flat neoprene about 3/4" square. Throw away the drain bolt, place the neoprene on the flat on the bottom of the drive that contains the bolt hole for the drain, wrap the whole thing with the hose clamp and tighten. It will work, be reusable infinitely, and have that cool, hayseed look about it like the old Massey- Ferguson out behind the barn.
Cork, carefully tapped into place in the drain hole, should also work extremely well and then you could smell said cork to determine the drive lube's vintage and overall quality.
Finally, are you sure you even need lube in the final drive?
A large midwestern company's Human Resources director was filling out a gov't questionaire. One of the questions was "How many employees does your company have, broken down by sex. He responded: Alcohol is more of a problem for us. Maybe you don't really need to strip the drain bolt in the first place? But always remember, paranoia is just good thinkin' when everyone is looking at you....
Brian
I've become a bit paranoid about changing the final drive fluid. With well documented issues with the drain plug hole stripping out I wonder if there isn't another way. Would it be possible to draw out the fluid through the fill hole using a hand-held pump like a mighty-vac? Am I crazy to even be concerned about it? Also is it true that wearing tin-foil on your head keeps the FBI from reading your thoughts and planting subliminal messages? :)
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I've kept my KiPass battery charged up and have had no issues with the changes or stripping out anything :D
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What I want to know is what does a drain plug have in common with KIPASS?
Darn, Steve, your'e quick ;D
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You could just go ahead and drill it out to install a heli-coil thread insert, and get it over with.
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I safety wired mine.
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I have removed the fluid from my drive in case it leaks.
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While that sounds sound, an even better method would be to remove it entirely, replace it with a chain drive, update the plastics and paint, update the engine and controls, replace the single muffler with a dual exhaust system, and call it a ZX-14. This, of course, should be done every other oil change at 9k miles. One should also run 87 octane and put a car tire on the rear. The front tire fitment should backwards. ::)
Assuming this above method is somewhat cumbersome yet strangely appealing, I would change it every oil change. It doesn't take much. Don't overfill it. I keep it about a 1/4 inch below the neck. This seems to work for me. Do not over tighten the filler hole or the drain plug. You will sincerely regret it. You don't have to replace the drain gasket but if you do, Kwak will love you and the money you give them. I've never had a leak in mine and it's never been replaced.
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Color me Irish, but, what well documented issues?
Probably heard it here....
California Raisins Commercial (1986) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM2OK_JaJ9I#)
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The above is all great advice, pick one and go for it.
I'll address your other question. The tin foil hat. They have new technology for tracking your thoughts now. The tin foil still works but you need to wrap your entire head, think full face helmet.
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Plastic bag first then the tin foil.
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Most oil drain plugs get stripped by well meaning owners who just bought a torque wrench. Unless otherwise stated, torque figures assume the fastener will be dry. Thats tough to do when a persons dealing with an oil drain bolt. If your lucky, only threads get ripped out.
On many of the dirt bikes, if not most, the threads are very strong. Strong enough to allow a chunk of the case to get ripped out. Things could be worse.
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Final drive drain bolt: 8.8N-m, 0.90kgf-m, 78in-lb
It doesn't need to be real tight, a small handle wrench will do. It you have tightites ::) get a wrench and cut off 3/4 of it, than you won't be able to over tighten it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/tbaker69/BrokeAce2.jpg)
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I use a six point socket with a quarter inch drive ratchet and it works great. Not to tight, not to loose......................that's what she said.
(http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/funny-celebrity-pictures-thats-what-she-said.jpg)
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Some like me may worry about the somewhat fine line between tight enough and stripped. With anything 14mm and up I am comfortable but nott with such as small bolt for such a small bolt. That is why I safety wire, for peace of mind. Kawi was thoughtful enough to include a tab for this which makes it very easy to do. HF has safety wire pliers for $10.00
(http://www.lamsta.com/gallery/RDDrainPLUG.jpg)
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Paranoia will destroy ya!!!!!!!
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Lather, I hate to pick on ya buddy as safety wire is a great idea. The problem is the safety wire job is lousy. You didn't bend your pig tail either but the wire would have broken if you did.
I would order another bolt just in case I snafu'd the original when I drilled a hole all the way through the bolt head. The hole would be big enough for .030 safety wire. .020 safety wire might work but it always looks small to me. Peace Bro.....
When I change the diff oil, I use a new washer and just snug the bolt so it's tight but not so tight I endanger the diff housing by pulling threads.
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No problem Tim, I can handle constructive criticism. I don't claim it was a great job but seems ok to me , certainly getting the job done. Please elaborate why you think it's a lousy job.
True, the wire I had on hand was sub standard, I have since bought real .032 SS safety wire.
Glad someone else here believes in safety wire anyway.
Lather, I hate to pick on ya buddy as safety wire is a great idea. The problem is the safety wire job is lousy. You didn't bend your pig tail either but the wire would have broken if you did.
I would order another bolt just in case I snafu'd the original when I drilled a hole all the way through the bolt head. The hole would be big enough for .030 safety wire. .020 safety wire might work but it always looks small to me. Peace Bro.....
When I change the diff oil, I use a new washer and just snug the bolt so it's tight but not so tight I endanger the diff housing by pulling threads.
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Ok, you asked. Let me explain where I’m coming from. I spent a little over 20 years in the Navy working on aircraft. In particular, I worked on egress and environmental systems. This means I worked on Ejection Seats and air conditioning. I also was an inspector starting when I was a 3rd Class P.O. I spent several years working in Quality Assurance as I advanced through the rank’swhich means I was the inspector’s inspector. At one point I was in charge of an office which included both service and civilians’ personnel as inspectors. QA had to inspect anything which dealt with safety of flight items. I also signed off on 17 test shots performed by the manufacturer Martin Baker in testing a new seat. The seat was fired from an F-4 with the front cockpit blocked off from the rear cockpit. This allowed live shots from the rear cockpit and not endangering the front cockpit with the pilot. Without going into great detail, the seats used dummies with sensors and not some old wino. This all happened at China Lake, CA.
OK, what’s wrong with Lathers safety wire job? First let me say I understand automotive safety wire have requirements different than aircraft requirements. My old Ford pickup has safety wired hood bolts, which is sort of like what you did, but see #2.
1. The wire should be pulling the bolt in a tightening direction. Not pulling with great force but the wire should be tight when picked like guitar string.
2. The “tit” you used to tie the safety wire too does not have the means to hold the safety wire in place. A better solution would be perhaps using a safety wire type tab which would fit under the bolt. There would have to be some modification to ensure the tab would not rotate on the drain bolt. Or find a bolt close by to place the tab. Or find enough “meat” somewhere to drill a hole to run the wire to.
3. The wire is not twisted. This would be best but not required in this case.
4. The pig tail is over twisted. With Safety wire pliers it’s easy to twist too tight. I myself like to do safety wire by hand until it’s time to pull it tight. I use the pliers to pull on one strand of wire and then start twisting using the pliers with the other hand on the other strand. I pull and twist at the same time until I get at least a couple of turns. I then would finish the pig tail with the pliers.
5. After I’m done with the twisting I cut the pig tail down to size leaving at least 6 turns. The pig tail is then bent over so it won’t cut the guy working in that same area.
If the pigtail in this case doesn’t break from vibration (low as it is) or break when debris hits it, I would be surprised. The wire would break at the first twist. I should have also brought up the point the bolt head will not be held in place by the safety wire if it becomes loose. Even the old hood bolts on the Ford had holes in the head of the bolt.
I would like to say I think Lather could be on to something. But for now, I will just snug the drain bolt like I have been doing. Putting safety wire on the drain bolt is going to be a pain in the caboose (technical term). it would be extremly hard to get a good job due to the loation and lack of working spsace. (could put the bike on it's side and open the space up) NOT. Besides I only have .040 stainless steel safety wire on hand. I would have to buy a roll of .030 safety wire
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I don't fly people's "yard furniture", but this is a nice article of safety wire procedures.
Nice to have teachers here that can help us learn. I think this is an art that some of us struggle to do properly, but I'm learning.
http://www.ultralightnews.com/pilotslounge/safetywire.htm (http://www.ultralightnews.com/pilotslounge/safetywire.htm)
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Meds anyone?
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Meds anyone?
:rotflmao: (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/smoke/smiley-rolling-joint.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/rolling.joint-emoticon-411.html)
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(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/smoke/smiley-rolling-joint.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/rolling.joint-emoticon-411.html)
Love that one Tom! I'm saving that one for future use myself! 8) :thumbs:
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Love that one Tom! I'm saving that one for future use myself! 8) :thumbs:
How about we share one? :)
Pull out your drill.....and I'll get some safety wire..... 8)
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How about we share one? :)
Pull out your drill.....and I'll get some safety wire..... 8)
;D ;D ;D
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Well, you are certainly qualified to give lessons. But maybe aviation techniques are overkill for my drain bolt. My job would have passed Wera tech, which is where I learned to safety wire. THe "tit" you speak of is actually an aluminum projection on the bottom of the rear drive case which I drilled and ran the wire through. Also, lots of miles now, 15, 20 K, and no wire breaks even with the spindly .19 galvanized.
Thanks for the critique, I learned something and aim to improve my wiring.
Ok, you asked. Let me explain where I’m coming from. I spent a little over 20 years in the Navy working on aircraft. In particular, I worked on egress and environmental systems. This means I worked on Ejection Seats and air conditioning. I also was an inspector starting when I was a 3rd Class P.O. I spent several years working in Quality Assurance as I advanced through the rank’swhich means I was the inspector’s inspector. At one point I was in charge of an office which included both service and civilians’ personnel as inspectors. QA had to inspect anything which dealt with safety of flight items. I also signed off on 17 test shots performed by the manufacturer Martin Baker in testing a new seat. The seat was fired from an F-4 with the front cockpit blocked off from the rear cockpit. This allowed live shots from the rear cockpit and not endangering the front cockpit with the pilot. Without going into great detail, the seats used dummies with sensors and not some old wino. This all happened at China Lake, CA.
OK, what’s wrong with Lathers safety wire job? First let me say I understand automotive safety wire have requirements different than aircraft requirements. My old Ford pickup has safety wired hood bolts, which is sort of like what you did, but see #2.
1. The wire should be pulling the bolt in a tightening direction. Not pulling with great force but the wire should be tight when picked like guitar string.
2. The “tit” you used to tie the safety wire too does not have the means to hold the safety wire in place. A better solution would be perhaps using a safety wire type tab which would fit under the bolt. There would have to be some modification to ensure the tab would not rotate on the drain bolt. Or find a bolt close by to place the tab. Or find enough “meat” somewhere to drill a hole to run the wire to.
3. The wire is not twisted. This would be best but not required in this case.
4. The pig tail is over twisted. With Safety wire pliers it’s easy to twist too tight. I myself like to do safety wire by hand until it’s time to pull it tight. I use the pliers to pull on one strand of wire and then start twisting using the pliers with the other hand on the other strand. I pull and twist at the same time until I get at least a couple of turns. I then would finish the pig tail with the pliers.
5. After I’m done with the twisting I cut the pig tail down to size leaving at least 6 turns. The pig tail is then bent over so it won’t cut the guy working in that same area.
If the pigtail in this case doesn’t break from vibration (low as it is) or break when debris hits it, I would be surprised. The wire would break at the first twist. I should have also brought up the point the bolt head will not be held in place by the safety wire if it becomes loose. Even the old hood bolts on the Ford had holes in the head of the bolt.
I would like to say I think Lather could be on to something. But for now, I will just snug the drain bolt like I have been doing. Putting safety wire on the drain bolt is going to be a pain in the caboose (technical term). it would be extremly hard to get a good job due to the loation and lack of working spsace. (could put the bike on it's side and open the space up) NOT. Besides I only have .040 stainless steel safety wire on hand. I would have to buy a roll of .030 safety wire
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Well, you are certainly qualified to give lessons. But maybe aviation techniques are overkill for my drain bolt. My job would have passed Wera tech, which is where I learned to safety wire. THe "tit" you speak of is actually an aluminum projection on the bottom of the rear drive case which I drilled and ran the wire through. Also, lots of miles now, 15, 20 K, and no wire breaks even with the spindly .19 galvanized.
Thanks for the critique, I learned something and aim to improve my wiring.
WERA/CCS <----------------(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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Meds anyone?
You buying?
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What I want to know is what does a drain plug have in common with KIPASS?
Darn, Steve, your'e quick ;D
Because the KiPass system transmits its mad pow-ah and protects all of the bike! :D
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While that sounds sound, an even better method would be to remove it entirely, replace it with a chain drive, update the plastics and paint, update the engine and controls, replace the single muffler with a dual exhaust system, and call it a ZX-14. This, of course, should be done every other oil change at 9k miles. One should also run 87 octane and put a car tire on the rear. The front tire fitment should backwards. ::)
:rotflmao:
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:rotflmao:
DO NOT laugh at Jim, it just makes him more bolder as he gets to drinking!!!!! :chugbeer:
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DO NOT laugh at Jim, it just makes him more bolder as he gets to drinking!!!!! :chugbeer:
Are you saying that there are times when he's not drinking?
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Are you saying that there are times when he's not drinking?
Sleeping.....riding.......and working are probably about the extent. I had a few personal final drive failures on New Years!!!!! :yikes:
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Sleeping.....riding.......and working are probably about the extent. I had a few personal final drive failures on New Years!!!!! :yikes:
I understand that this can happen to some guys as they get older...
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Final drive drain bolt: 8.8N-m, 0.90kgf-m, 78in-lb
It you have tightites ::) get a wrench and cut off 3/4 of it, than you won't be able to over tighten it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/tbaker69/BrokeAce2.jpg)
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Are you saying that there are times when he's not drinking?
He's usually much grumpier in those times for sure! He starts telling members to change their email address to something he makes up randomly just for his own personal kicks and to keep their post count down... He also says "update your subject line or else.." >:(
Love ya Jim, drink up bro, the world is a happier place when you do! :chugbeer: :grouphug: ;) (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/hiding.gif)
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:chugbeer: To all of you!
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Here is an alternate way of changing your final drive oil:
Leave the drain plug in, and remove the fill plug. Then pick up the bike with both hands, flip it upside down, and drain the oil into a suitable container. Let drain for about 2 minutes, while holding the bike steady in its inverted position over the pan. ;D
Now, seriously, there is no reason to worry about stripping the drain plug housing threads or the plug leaking if you follow these simple guidelines:
1. Do not torque any type of oil pan drain bolt! The torque values they specify may be applicable for a dry fastener, i.e. for tightening the drain plug if the final drive was bone dry. If you apply the same torque to a well lubricated bolt, the the preload in the bolt and stresses on the threads may be twice as high as on a dry bolt. And that's a sure recipe for stripping the aluminum threads.
2. Just tighten the plug snugly with a box wrench or a socket and make sure that the metal washer under it is not grooved. If it is grooved, replace it, because if you do not line the head of the plug with the groove properly, you will have a leak.
3. I have been changing oil on motorcycles and cars for years and never once stripped any threads in aluminum oil pans. And I never had any drain
plug come loose or leak. I know of plenty of people who did however - trying to torque them to the spec.
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Here is an alternate way of changing your final drive oil:
Leave the drain plug in, and remove the fill plug. Then pick up the bike with both hands, flip it upside down, and drain the oil into a suitable container. Let drain for about 2 minutes, while holding the bike steady in its inverted position over the pan. ;D
I tired that once but I kept spilling my beer.
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That would put the kibosh on it for me.
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I tired that once but I kept spilling my beer.
You need a new sippy cup.
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Here is some things I DON'T MISS about my Beemer.....
1. Throw the bike on the centerstand.
2. Remove side cases.
3. Unbolt the exhaust can from its mount and loosen at the midpipe.
4. Rotate the exhaust can away from the rear wheel.
5. Remove the rear wheel.
6. Remove the rear brake.
7. Remove the speedometer sensor.
8. Unbolt the top of the final drive retaining link.
9. Place drain under final drive.
10. Remove final drive drain plug.
11. Rotate final drive assembly down and drain oil.
12. Rotate final drive assembly upwards, seating dust shield and engaging drive shaft splines.
13. Using a 100 mL horse syringe, meter in 180 mL of final drive oil**
14. Replace speedometer sensor and rear brake.
15. Replace rear wheel.
16. Re-mount exhaust can to hangar. Tighten clamp bolt at mid pipe.
17. Replace side cases.
18. Clean up mess you made metering final drive oil through the drain plug.
**Beemer recently changed their specifications from 240 mL to 180 mL to address seal failure issues. 180 mL may be added through the drain plug, and happens to be to the bottom of the threads, making the process easier. You STILL need some sort of injector device to get it through the drain plug hole. Previously, you metered the oil through the speedometer sensor hole, which was much smaller and you had no visual indication of the level, so you actually had to measure the quantity going in. I used the previously mentioned horse syringe and a small length of fish tank air tube. The tube is not necessary if you are adding it through the drain plug.
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You need a new sippy cup.
Either that or I'm drinking too slow.
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Either that or I'm drinking too slow.
Need to borrow a beer bong C? ;)
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/dsfhewury.jpg)
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Here is some things I DON'T MISS about my Beemer.....
1. Throw the bike on the centerstand.
2. Remove side cases.
3. Unbolt the exhaust can from its mount and loosen at the midpipe.
4. Rotate the exhaust can away from the rear wheel.
5. Remove the rear wheel.
6. Remove the rear brake.
7. Remove the speedometer sensor.
8. Unbolt the top of the final drive retaining link.
9. Place drain under final drive.
10. Remove final drive drain plug.
11. Rotate final drive assembly down and drain oil.
12. Rotate final drive assembly upwards, seating dust shield and engaging drive shaft splines.
13. Using a 100 mL horse syringe, meter in 180 mL of final drive oil**
14. Replace speedometer sensor and rear brake.
15. Replace rear wheel.
16. Re-mount exhaust can to hangar. Tighten clamp bolt at mid pipe.
17. Replace side cases.
18. Clean up mess you made metering final drive oil through the drain plug.
**Beemer recently changed their specifications from 240 mL to 180 mL to address seal failure issues. 180 mL may be added through the drain plug, and happens to be to the bottom of the threads, making the process easier. You STILL need some sort of injector device to get it through the drain plug hole. Previously, you metered the oil through the speedometer sensor hole, which was much smaller and you had no visual indication of the level, so you actually had to measure the quantity going in. I used the previously mentioned horse syringe and a small length of fish tank air tube. The tube is not necessary if you are adding it through the drain plug.
Holy smoke! Are you sure you did not forget "remove the engine from the frame" step in there somewhere? :D
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Need to borrow a beer bong C? ;)
Um, I'll pass on that J, thanks though! :P
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I like how he is thinking, though.
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Holy smoke! Are you sure you did not forget "remove the engine from the frame" step in there somewhere? :D
That is is ACTUALLY the procedure to change the final drive oil in a 1200RT. It is not an embellishment!
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I like how he is thinking, though.
I senced some hesitation as well Sparky... ;D