Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: krsron on January 21, 2012, 08:07:16 AM
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Can you run 87 octane without ill long term effect.
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I don't think you could for a long time. In an emergency you could. I'm sure thee is someone here that has tried it or is doing it but for the price difference and amount of gas it takes your not saving a lot of money. About 20 cents difference between 87 and 91 and the tank holds under 6 gallons so your only saving about a dollar each tank full, not worth the risk to me.
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As Joe said, max difference of $1.20 per tank from 87 to 91/93, why bother with the risk?
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If I need to get gas due to availability of the next station, or because my riding buddies' need gas, I will top my tank off with mid-grade. 89 added to 93 keeps it above the recommended level. Now sure if that makes scientific sense, but I've done it. But, I never fill up a near empty tank with anything but high-test.
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If the bike is stock, it'll run its entire life on 87 without issue. :) This bike does not have the sort of compression or ignition lead that would necessitate high octane. If you live/ride at higher altitudes this is even more true. I've run 12.5:1+ bikes on 87 at the race track with no issue. Hell, I run 8lbs of boost on 91 octane with no detonation/pre-ignition issues. ;D
But if it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling, 1.20 a tank is pretty cheap as far as feel good pills go. :)
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If the bike is stock, it'll run its entire life on 87 without issue. :) This bike does not have the sort of compression or ignition lead that would necessitate high octane. If you live/ride at higher altitudes this is even more true. I've run 12.5:1+ bikes on 87 at the race track with no issue. Hell, I run 8lbs of boost on 91 octane with no detonation/pre-ignition issues. ;D
But if it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling, 1.20 a tank is pretty cheap as far as feel good pills go. :)
I kind of feel the same way. I have honestly not heard of engines failing due to the use of 87 octane in modern motorcycles. You can hear the knock before it will be damaging. I have never heard my engine knock, not even lightly on 87. I run 87 in the Winter, and 89 in the Summer (it gets hot out here.)
My Beemer had an adaptive spark advance system that would retard the timing if knock was detected. You could safely run 87 octane in it, and the knock sensor would detect the knock when it started (and you could HEAR the knock when the system kicked in). I'd take a hit in mileage if I ran 87 so I ran 89. It was specified for 90.
In auto 101 they teach you that the most efficient octane to use, is the lowest octane that you can run without the engine knocking. You get more power, better efficiency, and cleaner burning and less fouling and deposition. It's simply better for your engine.
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Thanks, just curious
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I think that Kawasaki knows their engine better than we do........just sayin. I will run 89 octane in a pinch, but typically 91/93 for me.
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I think that Kawasaki knows their engine better than we do........just sayin. I will run 89 octane in a pinch, but typically 91/93 for me.
Of course they do, but they have to consider worst case scenarios for heat and altitude, with some allowance in fuel quality variability.
Also, note that if you happen to be using a 10% ethanol blend (hate that crap) the effective octane is a two or three points higher than the rated octane. Which, is somewhat of a plus I guess.
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Of course they do, but they have to consider worst case scenarios for heat and altitude, with some allowance in fuel quality variability.
Also, note that if you happen to be using a 10% ethanol blend (hate that crap) the effective octane is a two or three points higher than the rated octane. Which, is somewhat of a plus I guess.
There is nothing good about ethanol in a motorcycle.
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There is nothing good about ethanol in a motorcycle.
So true!
Check these out on where to find ethanol free gas:
http://pure-gas.org/ (http://pure-gas.org/) (they appear to also have an iPhone ap)
http://buyrealgas.com/ (http://buyrealgas.com/)
I've not tried any of these myself, but might be worth checking on if one of them is in your area.
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So true!
Agreed. I really believe ethanol gas ruined my last bike.
Check these out on where to find ethanol free gas:
http://pure-gas.org/ (http://pure-gas.org/) (they appear to also have an iPhone ap)
http://buyrealgas.com/ (http://buyrealgas.com/)
More importantly, the second link has an Android app
I've not tried any of these myself, but might be worth checking on if one of them is in your area.
It would appear that the nearest one to me is hundreds of miles away. So, like the other 7 (?) million people around this "zone", I guess we are stuck with the crap psudo-gas.
Just to add my data point- I *always* use the octane gas a vehicle calls for, unless I have no alternative. I don't think a tank of lower octane will hurt a C-14, but it is not something I would do regularly. But I am used to the rip-off, anyway. My G37 requires it, my Maxima before it required it, and my supercharged CRX Si before that required it.
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Pure gas is pretty much only gonna be found at boat marinas.
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Here's something to think about -- Most stations sell very little high octane fuel and so it sits in the tank much longer than regular octane. With the addition of 10% ethanol, you are taking a big chance of getting water and other issues in your fuel. I have a friend who has a service station and he said he would NEVER buy his own premium fuel to put in his own vehicles.
I'll take my chances with regular fuel - thank you
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Here's something to think about -- Most stations sell very little high octane fuel and so it sits in the tank much longer than regular octane. With the addition of 10% ethanol, you are taking a big chance of getting water and other issues in your fuel. I have a friend who has a service station and he said he would NEVER buy his own premium fuel to put in his own vehicles.
I'll take my chances with regular fuel - thank you
You just go ahead and do that. :thumbs: I also try to find stations that have a seperate hose for each octane, that way I am getting the purest octane with my water.
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I kind of feel the same way. I have honestly not heard of engines failing due to the use of 87 octane in modern motorcycles. You can hear the knock before it will be damaging. I have never heard my engine knock, not even lightly on 87. I run 87 in the Winter, and 89 in the Summer (it gets hot out here.)
My Beemer had an adaptive spark advance system that would retard the timing if knock was detected. You could safely run 87 octane in it, and the knock sensor would detect the knock when it started (and you could HEAR the knock when the system kicked in). I'd take a hit in mileage if I ran 87 so I ran 89. It was specified for 90.
In auto 101 they teach you that the most efficient octane to use, is the lowest octane that you can run without the engine knocking. You get more power, better efficiency, and cleaner burning and less fouling and deposition. It's simply better for your engine.
And you, good Sir, are correct. Kudos for educating yourself & experience in testing it out. :)
...there is so much on the interwebs about octane & all the myths that surround it.... spend a few hours searching and you'll find the same camps of people: those that have the education and experience saying one thing, Vs. the folks that assume fact based on how loudly (or often) it is repeated by someone else. Anyway, given that octane is the only difference in a selection of fuels, the fuel with the lowest octane that can be used without knock/ping/pre-ignition/ or retarding the timing will produce the most efficient combustion. Period.
Here's another thing to think about: the Zx14 runs 12.2:1 compression and more aggressive timing than the Concours, and can safely run 89/91 gas. The C14 is 10.7:1.... and requires the same? Not at all likely, unless you really believe that 1.5 points of compression doesn't make that much of a difference. It's far more plausible that Kawasaki decided to save money by using the same warning/advisory sticker on nearly every bike they make. :)
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If your vehicle calls for 87 octane gas, you only need to put in 87 octane. You won’t get any benefit by putting in a higher octane and it will only cost you more. If your vehicle calls for premium gas, put in premium gas. You can do damage to your vehicle if you put in a lower octane and here's how.
Most vehicle have a four-stroke gasoline engine where the strokes refer to the cylinders moving up and down. One of the strokes is what’s known as the compression stroke. The piston compresses a mixture of air and gasoline before it is ignited by a spark plug. Octane rating of gasoline refers to how much that gas and air can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites, the lower the octane the less it can be compressed before igniting. Premium gas can be compressed far more than regular gas.
If your vehicle calls for 87 octane gas, that means it’s going to compress that air/fuel mix to a point where 87 won’t ignite on its own. If you pay more and add in 89, you get no benefit because it’ll only compress that mix to the 87 level. You get no added benefit because your engine can’t take advantage of the higher compression ratio.
You shouldn’t skimp and buy a lower octane than required. Your engine operates most efficiently when that air/fuel mix explodes when it’s supposed to explode. The whole timing of the engine is fouled up when it explodes early and that’s what happens if you put regular gas into an engine designed with premium in mind. When 87 gas is compressed to 91 levels, it’ll explode prematurely and foul up the timing of the engine (this is known as “knocking
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Octane rating of gasoline refers to how much that gas and air can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites, the lower the octane the less it can be compressed before igniting. Premium gas can be compressed far more than regular gas.
If your vehicle calls for 87 octane gas, that means it’s going to compress that air/fuel mix to a point where 87 won’t ignite on its own. If you pay more and add in 89, you get no benefit because it’ll only compress that mix to the 87 level. You get no added benefit because your engine can’t take advantage of the higher compression ratio.
You shouldn’t skimp and buy a lower octane than required. Your engine operates most efficiently when that air/fuel mix explodes when it’s supposed to explode. The whole timing of the engine is fouled up when it explodes early and that’s what happens if you put regular gas into an engine designed with premium in mind. When 87 gas is compressed to 91 levels, it’ll explode prematurely and foul up the timing of the engine (this is known as “knocking
The first few sentences were spot on, but then it got a little muddy....
1) Incorrect. Proper combustion BURNS, it does not explode. Explosions are on a whoooole 'nother level, and not a good one for non-diesel internal combustion engines.
2) Almost correct. Things do indeed get 'fouled' up when you have "explosions" in the combustion chamber. Timing is not what gets messed up: the pistons, bearings, and crank take the beating. Messed up timing could potentially contribute to the problem, however.
3) This phenomenon is known as detonation, and is characterized by a "pinging" or higher pitched clacking noise. "Knocking" is (generally) a deeper noise indicative of bearing, rod, and/or piston failure. The explosions beat the top of the piston down, destroy the end of the spark plug, and hammer the bearings out of round. You know when it's happening right underneath you legs. Again, diesels aren't part of this discussion
You kinda have the idea there... but the agru...erm, discussion is about whether or not the Concours actually -requires- 91+ octane in order to function safely. I propose that it does not... at least not at stock compression and ignition/cam timing levels. I've certainly tested it and proven it to be fine on 87, and it's been proven in pretty harsh conditions that the same engine in an even higher state of tune also do not require 91 octane. I'm not even beginning to suggest that ALL manufactures that state that 'premium' gas is mandatory are mistaken, just in this case. Not all engines are created equal. Modern small bore/short stroke motors are pretty incredible when it comes how aggressive they can be tuned on relatively mild fuels.
Now I'll give a big maybe here: If the bike were at/below see level, at the full 1100lb GVWR, with IAT around 120 degrees F, and pulling WTFO in 5th or 6th gear for extended periods of time, then I'd seriously consider running 91+ octane gas. How often does anyone here do that? Maybe if I got stuck with 83 or 85 gas I'd worry a bit, but you could easily run the bike at less than full throttle 'till you found better stuff. :)
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I think that my head is going to explode! Or is that detonate? Certainly not knock.
I'll just spend wily nily on 93 octane thank you, it smells better anyways.
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Love all you arm chair engineers ::) , really I do. Which one of you designed that engine and knows intimately what it requires or doesn't in the way of octane rating? I"m sure the Kwak engineering staff got together, all chuckling and half drunk on Saki (which I like as well of course), and thought what fun we can have by requiring those silly riders to put high test gas in their bikes and waste all of their money. They then drank some more and had even more laughs....they then designed KIPASS (couldn't help myself with that one).
I think we need a volunteer to run the bike on 87 and then take it apart after a year. We don't need a volunteer that's going to baby it or put several thousand miles a year on it. We need someone that will put at least 15k+ and thrash it somewhat. That should be a good test, I would think, but then again, I'm not a Kwak engineer or stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately. If it shows nothing in the way of damage, then we'll all have a big dodah, get drunk on our favorite libation, hoist the volunteer in the air and cheer them tremendously. I'll pay for one drink. That's it, no more. Others will have to chip in as well. We'll then face west and laugh in the general direction of Japan and their silly engineers.
It's a high performance engine folks and requires high test. If you want to ride it like it has a high performance engine then I would think you would follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
I've linked a design factoid from Kwak that makes interesting reading. For those of you that don't read the Wiki FAQs, you may not have seen it. The engine design is toward the end but it makes interesting reading.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf)
I like this thread. It's entertaining. However, if you want to talk ethanol, this ain't the place. It's about octane. There's a wonderful thread in Open concerning that c***.
I feel better now.
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I think that my head is going to explode! Or is that detonate? Certainly not knock.
I'll just spend wily nily on 93 octane thank you, it smells better anyways.
Tastes better as well.
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But the Kwak engineering staff also gave us the disentegrating plastic luggage rack, the ejectable side pods, the self emolating rear brake (not to mention KiPass but by law I must mention it anyway). Why should we trust them?
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Snip...
I"m sure the Kwak engineering staff got together, all chuckling and half drunk on Saki (which I like as well of course), and thought what fun we can have by requiring those silly riders to put high test gas in their bikes and waste all of their money. They then drank some more and had even more laughs....they then designed KIPASS (couldn't help myself with that one).
If it shows nothing in the way of damage, then we'll all have a big dodah, get drunk on our favorite libation, hoist the volunteer in the air and cheer them tremendously. I'll pay for one drink. That's it, no more. Others will have to chip in as well. We'll then face west and laugh in the general direction of Japan and their silly engineers.
Jim, your love for adult beverages is known far and wide. The question is, are there any that you don't like? ;)
I think that after the engineers were all feeling pretty darn good about themselves, and KIPASS (assisted by their Saki) they went ahead and wrote out the owner's manual is all it's nearly unintelligible glory.
Soulds like a party, I'll pay for the next drink. 8)
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But the Kwak engineering staff also gave us the disentegrating plastic luggage rack, the ejectable side pods, the self emolating rear brake (not to mention KiPass but by law I must mention it anyway). Why should we trust them?
Totally agree on that but if you don't trust them then get rid of your bike or/and don't buy another ;) . All the manufacturers have problems. I like the C14 in spite of what's occurred in the past.
All of the above was designed in the same meeting.... I should know, as I was there. They overruled me, of course, on the octane point, but what could I say, they had Geisha and there was lots and lots of Saki. Good Saki, not the cheap stuff. Unfortunately, I don't remember much of that meeting. In fact, it could be all fantasy....
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Love all you arm chair engineers ::) , really I do.
You're right. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I've never done the math on any of this, or tested it out for thousands upon thousands of miles, or even on half a dozen different machines. God only knows, I've never even ridden a bike hard enough to find out too. Arm chair is definitely all I do for research. I'm out: ya'll have fun in here. :)
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I run 93/91 not because I think it (bike) needs it, but for $1 a tank it makes me feel better. I did run 87 (tank fulls) three times on the Alcan Highway and 85 in the Mts. between Pheonix and Rosewell NM and noticed MPG did not change and there was no pinging. I had no choice at each of the fill ups because that was all that was available. I am sure that Kawi recommends over the top to protect the rep. of their bikes in extreme situations. One fuel related failure can spread around the world on the internet and cause many who are uniformed to buy something else.
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I also snowmobile (2 strokes) so a lot of discussion on Octane in that sport.
I recommend running what the manufacturer says, IF you are running at sea level. You see, they have to plan worst case scenario, so for them they must figure what the machine needs at sea level. Now if you go up in altitude, then the air density goes down and with lower air density the compression PSI goes down too. This is why you see many fuel stations in 5000' and up altitudes offering 85 octane. Also is why you see may stations at sea level offering 91+ octane.
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You're right. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I've never done the math on any of this, or tested it out for thousands upon thousands of miles, or even on half a dozen different machines. God only knows, I've never even ridden a bike hard enough to find out too. Arm chair is definitely all I do for research. I'm out: ya'll have fun in here. :)
I'm not sure what you mean by you're out of here. Out of this thread, out of the forum, out of this world, but if you can't take a difference of opinion somewhat tainted with humor/sarcasm then this thread or others may not be for you. I have no idea what your background is in Kawk MC engine design or gasoline burning in general. I didn't call you names, single you out, or say that your stance/information was incorrect. I stated my opinion, albeit in sarcastic tone which is normal for me as anyone who's been here for more than a year can tell you. I hope you stay but if not, so be it. In fact, I went back and looked and I wasn't even thinking about you in particular in my response. Oh well.
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Now boys.....get along!!
$1.20 a tank...easy pill to swallow.
Filling with lower octane in a pinch? ... Now that's an easy pill to swallow after all this info.
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I should be the one saying that and I have at times, but thank you. I've done the same and will do at times when the need dictates. I don't like it. It's a bitter pill for me to swallow and I apologize to the bike while doing it.
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I happen to stay in Holiday Inn Express's quite often "which is why I am usually always right", and JIM is on a roll today!!!!!!! :hail:
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I happen to stay in Holiday Inn Express's quite often "which is why I am usually always right", and JIM is on a roll today!!!!!!! :hail:
Wow...I never knew...and now I do. Excellent!
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I happen to stay in Holiday Inn Express's quite often "which is why I am usually always right", and JIM is on a roll today!!!!!!! :hail:
I'm sure if we’d known of your impeccable credentials before Pokey, you would have never got an argument from any of us on any subject. ;)
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I'm sure if we’d known of your impeccable credentials before Pokey, you would have never got an argument from any of us on any subject. ;)
Carry on Conrad.......and Never use less than 89 octane unless absolutely necessary. :thumbs:
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Carry on Conrad.......and Never use less than 89 octane unless absolutely necessary. :thumbs:
You got it.
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Love all you arm chair engineers ::) , really I do. Which one of you designed that engine and knows intimately what it requires or doesn't in the way of octane rating? I"m sure the Kwak engineering staff got together, all chuckling and half drunk on Saki (which I like as well of course), and thought what fun we can have by requiring those silly riders to put high test gas in their bikes and waste all of their money. They then drank some more and had even more laughs....they then designed KIPASS (couldn't help myself with that one).
I think we need a volunteer to run the bike on 87 and then take it apart after a year. We don't need a volunteer that's going to baby it or put several thousand miles a year on it. We need someone that will put at least 15k+ and thrash it somewhat. That should be a good test, I would think, but then again, I'm not a Kwak engineer or stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately. If it shows nothing in the way of damage, then we'll all have a big dodah, get drunk on our favorite libation, hoist the volunteer in the air and cheer them tremendously. I'll pay for one drink. That's it, no more. Others will have to chip in as well. We'll then face west and laugh in the general direction of Japan and their silly engineers.
It's a high performance engine folks and requires high test. If you want to ride it like it has a high performance engine then I would think you would follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
I've linked a design factoid from Kwak that makes interesting reading. For those of you that don't read the Wiki FAQs, you may not have seen it. The engine design is toward the end but it makes interesting reading.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf)
I like this thread. It's entertaining. However, if you want to talk ethanol, this ain't the place. It's about octane. There's a wonderful thread in Open concerning that c***.
I feel better now.
Okay you're on! At least partially. I'll run my C14 on 87 and report how the engine is doing after 100,000 miles. I won't tear it apart though.
BTW I'm not actually an armchair engineer, I actually worked in engine R&D for a brief period of my life after school. I've done countless destruct tests on motors, using various combinations of oils and octanes which were in part done to establish minimum specifications. The process is, in a nutshell, this: 1. Run engine in conditions of maximum CHT and maximum continuous power, for some extended period of time (say 8 hours.) Decrease the octane. 3. Repeat until engine starts to ping. Note octane. 4. Run engine at maximum CHT and maximum power until something breaks. 5. Decrease the octane. 6. Repeat until the engine destroys itself through detonation. Note the octane. Recommended octane is the next higher of the two. Repeat for RON only spec fuel if engine is to be used internationally. Or better yet, just make an adjustment for RON spec fuel and derate it a for safety as there is no absolute fixed correlation between the two. Japanese engine manufactures likely do the opposite - do their certification tests on RON fuel and adjust and derate for (R+M)/2 rated fuel.
Not all manufacturers do it exactly that way but they all have some form of achieving the same end. But typically, the test conditions used in establishing recommended octane represent unrealistic real world situations.
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<snip...>
I've linked a design factoid from Kwak that makes interesting reading. For those of you that don't read the Wiki FAQs, you may not have seen it. The engine design is toward the end but it makes interesting reading.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf)
<...\snip>
I had not seen that document before, good info, and it answers the question of why higher octane fuel when the compression is lower than a ZX-14 (top of page 12).
Jim, you should make it required reading for all newbies. :P Although that might result in less arm chair engineering discussions.
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Less entertainment value, though.
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Less entertainment value, though.
tru dat... (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/sleep1.gif)
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Now boys.....get along!!
$1.20 a tank...easy pill to swallow.
Filling with lower octane in a pinch? ... Now that's an easy pill to swallow after all this info.
Well, if we were talking 250+ miles a tank... ...
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)
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Ok......lets throw in temp changes and elevation levels too, because I'm sure that Kawasaki took that into consideration.
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Ok......lets throw in temp changes and elevation levels too, because I'm sure that Kawasaki took that into consideration.
If they were going to be that considerate they could have put a closed loop system on the bike.
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If they were going to be that considerate they could have put a closed loop system on the bike.
Yeah I have to agree with ya there.
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I had not seen that document before, good info, and it answers the question of why higher octane fuel when the compression is lower than a ZX-14 (top of page 12).
Jim, you should make it required reading for all newbies. :P Although that might result in less arm chair engineering discussions.
That is a good read I have not seen before (although it is now not much new to me). However, I LOVE this quote:
"Q: Are the front and rear brakes linked?
A: No. For sport touring bikes, brakes that can be used independently front and rear on winding roads are part of the fun. Our view is current Linked Brake Systems tend to remove this fun factor – the underlying principle of the C14."
Talk about back-pedaling :) Of course, they would now say their linked system does not remove the fun because it is so much better designed than traditional linked systems, yada, yada, yada!
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If they were going to be that considerate they could have put a closed loop system on the bike.
Mama Kaw must like Europe better ;)
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Oh, since people were "blah blah blah" about the ZX being higher compression and the C-14 not needing higher octane.... straight from the PDF, above:
"Q: Why is the compression ratio lower?
A: The theoretical compression ratio of 10.7:1 is lower than the 12.0:1 of the ZX-14. However, the actual compression ratio increases when the camshaft timing is advanced higher. With intake camshaft timing becoming more advanced than the ZX-14’s via the C14’s Variable Valve Timing, it was necessary to start at a lower ratio so we could keep the actual compression ratio from becoming higher than the engine’s knocking limit."
My bold/emphasis. When pushed, the VVT Concours engine is at the same compression ratio as the ZX. And it is at high performance/compression levels when a higher octane is needed the most. So, until they make a dynamically variable octane gas ( :O ) the higher octane is needed all the time. Even the "new" ZX still does not have variable valve timing....
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I have 35K on my '08. I've always used mid grade 89 octane.. 1 point below spec.
Runs fine and I run the snot out of it. As long as it doesn't knock you're good whatever you're running.
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I use those little coffee filters to remove even more octane from wherever I buy regular unleaded... 8)
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I use those little coffee filters to remove even more octane from wherever I buy regular unleaded... 8)
You must use one of those Braun gold plated reusable filters :yikes:
On the VVT and probably a little condescending, if your bike has never seen redline in third or fourth gear mid grade is probably OK, if you like bouncing the rev limiter from second to third, premium is IMO required. When I am out for a ride with SWMBO I wouldn't sneeze at midgrade as I never get above 4-5k on the tach. As with anything that is grand, ride your own ride and never believe everything ya read on the internet ;D
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If a modern, engine managed, fuel injected motor has knock sensors then it will run on just about anything you can get from a gas pump (no,... NOT Diesel!) ;) The knock sensor will change the ignition timing to prevent knocking which will have the effect of reducing the available power for lower octane fuels.
However, the C-14 does not have a knock sensor so you are better off staying within the manufacturers recommendations which are;
No less than 90 AKI
No more than 10% ethanol OR 5% methanol
No more than 15% MTBE
These are almost certainly over conservative so you may even get away with 87 AKI but buyer beware.
If the motor starts knocking then from there it's a short trip to blowing a hole in the piston. :yikes:
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Alright OED riders -- how many of you have ever "holed" a piston from detonation? EVER? Right, just like I thought !! I owned a '68 Triumph Bonneville that has high compression pistons and it "knocked" like a can of BBs on hot days under any type of moderate acceleration even on high octane gas and I rode the wheels off that bike and it never holed a piston in all the years I owned it (misspent youth) I wish I still had it today. That engine was air-cooled, had points and condenser ignition, Amal carbs and certainly NO knock sensors. Yeah, I tried to jet it "fat" (rich) and retarded the ignition as much as possible -- BUT no holed pistons. I also owned two (2) Kawasaki Mach I 500s with high compression, expansion chambers, and lean jetting. They also were notorious for detonation and holing pistons, and yet I rode the rims off my two and again NEVER holed a piston (did seize one twice in the same day though) from detonation.
I guarantee that none of you will ever "hole" a piston on the modern, water-cooled, fuel-injected, computer-engine-managed C14 from using 87 octane gas -- EVER.
Now if some of you just feel the need to appease your OCDness that is your business, but quit trying to scare everyone else about this issue even if you still jump when you see your shadow and can't sleep without your nightlight on.
We can all read the manual -- there is no need to continually recite it to the literate
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To no one in particular:
It is all fine and well to read the manual and follow the guidelines (rules if you prefer). That said, I think it is always desirable to try to understand a situation and understand the reasons for specific requirements. Further, as this is a forum specifically dedicated to discussing [our favorite] motorcycle, I think the science behind the need for octane is perfectly acceptable to discuss. Perhaps we can even learn something- I shoot for that very thing everyday.
Just my opinion but I think it is a good and valuable thing to have knowledgeable folks render their opinions and thoughts on subjects like this. My point is that any / all of us can disagree with anyone but there is no need to try to stifle the posting of information, even if we are not interested in it.
Of course if all of that fails, we could always resort to just being reasonable and polite.... ;)
Brian
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Brian:
I agree with you completely, but every time a topic is discussed that differs with the "manual" even the slightest -- you get the obligatory, "but the manual says this..." or "the manual says that...." "You can't do that because the manual says you shouldn't..."
It just gets old like none of us is literate enough to read the manual or make inferences on our own. You would think the darn thing was the US Constitution for crying out loud !!
One of the reasons I bought a C10 originally was because the COG guys were WAY more knowledgeable than the dealers or the factory as far as I could tell. I knew I could get maximum utility and enjoyment for my C10 and myself from the discussions and tech articles in the forum.
Something has changed with the advent of the C14 -- the owners as a whole seem much more resistant to modification of maintenance procedures and factory recommendations than the C10 riders and I'm not sure why. It's as if many of the C14 riders are "afraid" to do anything not written in stone in the MANUAL. You would think with guys like Fred Harmon running interference for us that we could be free to discuss things like replacement batteries for the TPMS, different octane ratings, tire pressures/ sizes/types, improved replacement parts, etc.
Maybe too many switch-over, follow-the-herd riders from other brands and types of motorcycles to the C14? Not familiar with the innovative environment of the COG-o-sphere?
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Many too many switch-over, follow-the-herd riders from other brands and types of motorcycles to the C14? Not familiar with the innovative environment of the COG-o-sphere?
Must..Not...Respond....
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Seems pretty clear to me that comparing the C10 to the C14 is apples to oranges. Fred left us all high and dry here, so now we are just a buncha lost dumbasses......right? ::)
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Brian:
You would think with guys like Fred Harmon running interference for us that we could be free to discuss things like replacement batteries for the TPMS, different octane ratings, tire pressures/ sizes/types, improved replacement parts, etc.
Fred Harmon? Who's he? I don't think I've seen him respond lately to any of those subjects here. However, those subjects have been discussed quite a bit without his input on this forum. Heck, we even talk about car tires here... You forgot that one. I haven't heard any of us discuss deleting or locking posts on those subjects. You can talk just about anything in this forum. All you got to do is bring it up. Course if you ain't got a sense of humor in getting some of the responses or get riled up easily then there's other places to go as well.
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WOW... Four pages and still going. This is getting as good as an oil thread! :o
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It's only getting warmed up....
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Must..Not...Respond....
Sure you can. I'm not near locking this thread yet.
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However, those subjects have been discussed quite a bit without his input on this forum. Heck, we even talk about car tires here... You forgot that one. I haven't heard any of us discuss deleting or locking posts on those subjects. You can talk just about anything in this forum. All you got to do is bring it up. Course if you ain't got a sense of humor in getting some of the responses or get riled up easily then there's other places to go as well.
:goodpost: :grouphug:
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"If you wanna get down, down on the ground; octane. When the day is done, and you wanna run; octane." 8)
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Sounds familiar.. Why does Eric Clapton come to mind?
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Who cares if a carburetted, rich jetted, low revving, air cooled twin, LOW COMPRESSION motor knocks or not.
The C-14 runs up to 12:1 compression ratio depending on where the VVT is at.
At those compression ratios and running very close to the optimum air/fuel ratio you are risking damage if you ride for any length of time with a knocking motor. That is why most cars have knock sensors.
On bikes knock sensors are more difficult as the motor is not "isolated" from the frame so the sensors have difficult separating the noise from the knock "sound".
And if you read my last 2 lines you would have seen that I said 87 would probably be fine.
"Buyer beware" means don't come screaming to the forum when your motor lunches itself because you did something that the manufacturer specifically says should not be done, and that they then refuse to repair it under warranty.
Personally I frequently overload the rear racks on my C10 and C14, I substantially overload the bike, and I ignored the 8k miles "renew spark plugs" on my C14 as a waste of money. They were done at 25k miles and still looked new. My choice, MY RISK!
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Who cares if a carburetted, rich jetted, low revving, air cooled twin, LOW COMPRESSION motor knocks or not.
The C-14 runs up to 12:1 compression ratio depending on where the VVT is at.
At those compression ratios and running very close to the optimum air/fuel ratio you are risking damage if you ride for any length of time with a knocking motor. That is why most cars have knock sensors.
On bikes knock sensors are more difficult as the motor is not "isolated" from the frame so the sensors have difficult separating the noise from the knock "sound".
And if you read my last 2 lines you would have seen that I said 87 would probably be fine.
"Buyer beware" means don't come screaming to the forum when your motor lunches itself because you did something that the manufacturer specifically says should not be done, and that they then refuse to repair it under warranty.
Personally I frequently overload the rear racks on my C10 and C14, I substantially overload the bike, and I ignored the 8k miles "renew spark plugs" on my C14 as a waste of money. They were done at 25k miles and still looked new. My choice, MY RISK!
You talkin' to me?
How many modern 4 cylinder motorcycle engines have you had your hands inside? I have had numerous apart and never have I seen any sign of detonation damage even in the most raced and abused. Computer management and water-cooling virtually eliminates detonation in modern engines at anything short of diesel-level compression ratios. Modern engineers know that low-octane gas is the norm today and design with that in mind. The difference between 87 and 90 octane is minimal and I bet you have NEVER heard your C14 engine knocking --- Period ! Those bikes are sold in many countries some of which have very sketchy gas quality, so you know Kawasaki has considered this too. Go ahead and keep being OCD with YOUR bike, but leave the rest of us in peace to do as WE please. Unless of course, you have some superior technical skills or knowledge that would give validity to your argument. Or even better yet, just post some pictures of a C14 engine with holed pistons from detonation damage.
Don't let your fingers write checks, your mind can't cash --- Just 'cuz yer gran-pappy said so, don't make it so !!
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Seems pretty clear to me that comparing the C10 to the C14 is apples to oranges. Fred left us all high and dry here, so now we are just a buncha lost dumbasses......right? ::)
If the shoe fits................
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If the shoe fits................
I wear boots allot of the time, and I can think of where one of them might fit in your case. :yikes:
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Alright OED riders -- how many of you have ever "holed" a piston from detonation? EVER? Right, just like I thought !! I owned a '68 Triumph Bonneville that has high compression pistons and it "knocked" like a can of BBs on hot days under any type of moderate acceleration even on high octane gas and I rode the wheels off that bike and it never holed a piston in all the years I owned it (misspent youth) I wish I still had it today. That engine was air-cooled, had points and condenser ignition, Amal carbs and certainly NO knock sensors. Yeah, I tried to jet it "fat" (rich) and retarded the ignition as much as possible -- BUT no holed pistons. I also owned two (2) Kawasaki Mach I 500s with high compression, expansion chambers, and lean jetting. They also were notorious for detonation and holing pistons, and yet I rode the rims off my two and again NEVER holed a piston (did seize one twice in the same day though) from detonation.
I guarantee that none of you will ever "hole" a piston on the modern, water-cooled, fuel-injected, computer-engine-managed C14 from using 87 octane gas -- EVER.
Now if some of you just feel the need to appease your OCDness that is your business, but quit trying to scare everyone else about this issue even if you still jump when you see your shadow and can't sleep without your nightlight on.
We can all read the manual -- there is no need to continually recite it to the literate
Ok guys, there it is and we're all witnesses. Zed gave us his personal guarantee that using 87 octane gas will never "hole" a piston in our C14s. Feel free to use the lower octane gas knowing that if your bike blows up because of it that Zed will be paying to have your bike repaired.
Sweet!
Thanks Zed! :thumbs:
::)
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I remember reading an article by Kevin Cameron or Gordon Jennings before I bought my 1972 XL250, the first mass produced motorcycle with a 4 valve combustion chamber engine. It said the 4 valve combustion chamber design pretty much eliminated detonation or preignition problems in that carbureted, aircooled engine due to the centrally located spark plug and improved flame propagation.
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Ok guys, there it is and we're all witnesses. Zed gave us his personal guarantee that using 87 octane gas will never "hole" a piston in our C14s. Feel free to use the lower octane gas knowing that if your bike blows up because of it that Zed will be paying to have your bike repaired.
Sweet!
Thanks Zed! :thumbs:
::)
Great. We can stop pissing in his Wheaties now.