Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: brownja on November 22, 2011, 06:23:58 AM
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2004 C10. 35,000 miles.
I must have missed a shift this morning, when I let out the clutch, i knocked all the teeth off 4th gear. Limped home 4 or 5 miles.
Any idea what that is going to cost me to fix?
I take the bike to the local Kawi dealer (New Haven Powersports). They have been decent with me over the years and I'm not comfortable attempting something like this.
Thanks,
jb
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It'll be cheaper to buy a good used engine. Trust me.
ETA - I seriously doubt you knocked the teeth off the gear. I dunno, maybe impossible. whay it more likely is a shift fork / drum failure. Either way it's a full engine teardown to access the guts of the engine. Steve
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That would be expensive.
I agree doubtful all the teeth were knocked out.
Agree with Steve. More likely shift mecanism.
Ride safe, Ted
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I was just going by sound and feel. Sounds like it's toast either way.
Thanks,
jb
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If you haven't already, I would first drain the oil and pull the filter to see if there is signs of such a failure.
If there is no Metal pieces from a set of striped off teeth, then I'd pull the gear shift cover on the left side. Inspect the parts, look close at the end of the shift drum for bent or missing Pins.
But if you do find the Gears are in the Pan, then I guess its up to your capability. The Factory Service Manual will show you the steps for pulling the engine, then to split the cases for gear replacement. Feebay has the gears for Cheap. If you live in a colder climate you probably have plenty of time to do it over the next few months.
If you need a Hard Copy of the Factory Manual, I have one.
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Did the gears change on the C10 from the 86 to present? If not, I think I have a full set of gears for a C10. I'll have to check when I get home.
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Did the gears change on the C10 from the 86 to present? If not, I think I have a full set of gears for a C10. I'll have to check when I get home.
Good question. I would think they would be the same from 1986-2006.
I'd be interested to hear if that is the case since I'll likely be shopping for parts, from you or ebay, soon.
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Kawasaki.com says they are the same.
https://www.kawasakiepc.com/SystemSearch_Frames.cfm?QuickSearch=1&SearchFor=ZG1000-A5&SearchBy=Model&cGroupID=&CFID=6128549&CFTOKEN=82854735 (https://www.kawasakiepc.com/SystemSearch_Frames.cfm?QuickSearch=1&SearchFor=ZG1000-A5&SearchBy=Model&cGroupID=&CFID=6128549&CFTOKEN=82854735)
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I too have a full set of Concours gears. From an '01 or a '98.
And maybe the shift mechanism stuff.
But if you want any of it, I'll stuff anything else I can get into the box along with the parts you wanted so I can get the things out of my way.
;D
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I would be looking for a complete motor. If it is weak swap out the heads,pistons and block with yours.. Be a lot easier than splitting the cases in my opinion.
Wayne
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SteveWFL I am not but here is a quick pic showing what I have.
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SteveWFL I am not but here is a quick pic showing what I have.
Read through your Service manual, it will show that once the motor is removed, splitting the cases, replacing the Trans Gears is pretty straight forward.
Doing the Top End Swap onto another used motor, that's actually more time consuming, then Gaskets etc. If you Know your motor is good and its just a Gear issue. I would be Splitting, although not everyone will agree.
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Read through your Service manual, it will show that once the motor is removed, splitting the cases, replacing the Trans Gears is pretty straight forward.
Doing the Top End Swap onto another used motor, that's actually more time consuming, then Gaskets etc. If you Know your motor is good and its just a Gear issue. I would be Splitting, although not everyone will agree.
Motorhead - you would split the cases; I would split the cases; but we're engine guys. AND once they're apart you need to know what you're looking for to fix the issue. Proper cleanliness and surface prep is essential to a successful reassembly, as well and not forgetting any parts. The dealer will likely be asking 1500.00 + for this job, and IMO if he's been bringing the bike to a dealer it means he's not an engine guy. This is one of those times where DIY has to be based on the individuals ability, not yours or mine. Since engines can be bought for 400 to 500 for a fully assembled good runner, That's the only choice I'd see as viable. Steve
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JB, I agree with MH on removing the filter and possibly the side case. Before you decide it's a total loss, see what come out of the oil.
After that, it's up to you to decideyour course of action.
I'm a decent mechanic, BUT bottom ends (and transmissions in particular) scare me to death. I would look for a good doner engine.
Keep us posted. Maybe someone can help youfigure out what happened after you see if any metal comes out.
Ride safe, Ted
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Ted - what's the metal going to tell him? he already KNOWS 4th gear is inoperable. I don't see the metal having anything to do with diagnostics on this one, and I tend to be pretty good at diagnosing. Again, I seriously doubt the gears are stripped. I think the shift drum / forks are going to be the issue here. If it was spread over other gears, I'd think the shift cam springs could be an issue, but he's only indicated the issue in 4th gear, and it must grind pretty bad if he thinks he "knocked all the teeth off" . Steve
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I was thinking more of,,, is there lots of metal (indicating a major failure) ?
Or no metal (indicating something more minor).
I'd hate for him to change an engine and then find out later that there was only a minor problem.
If there is no metal, I'd go a bit deeper before moving to the next stage.
I'm like you don't think the gear is stripped. I suspect dogs on 4th gear damaged, 4th gear shift fork bent, or the drum itself has a problem.
I'm interested in this problem as I've only worked on Dirt bike and small bike tranny's.
On those, worn/rounded gear dogs or a bent shift fork will make it kick in and out of gear. The bike makes a terrable noise, but actual damage is minor.
Ride safe, Ted
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Yes, actual damage is minor, actual metal in the pan is minor, but it won't shift into the effected gears, and a teardown os nessessary.
Hydrolocked engines don't put any metal in the pan either, but they're pretty well wasted and require teardown to fix.
Metal in the pan on this issue is inconsequential. Teardown and inspection is nessessary, and probably the only way to repair the issue. Why waste time looking at all the shiny pieces, or lack thereof? just sayin... steve
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From Switzerland Europe(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5513/sigtp41ps4.gif)
Hello
Perhaps like me broken spring ;)
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/922/zg1000sig2029.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/zg1000sig2029.jpg/)
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Motorhead - you would split the cases; I would split the cases; but we're engine guys. . . .
Two reasons to split the engine:
1) You may be able to fix it and you have to take the engine out anyway to swap it.
2) If things go well, you can also remove the cursed Positive Neutral Finder and toss the little ball bearing over your left shoulder.
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Two reasons to split the engine:
1) You may be able to fix it and you have to take the engine out anyway to swap it.
2) If things go well, you can also remove the cursed Positive Neutral Finder and toss the little ball bearing over your left shoulder.
Reason # 3) You will learn something about the engine and your abilities or lack there of.
Wayne
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Update: 4th gear doesn't move the bike at all. The best way to describe the sound is like a battery drill clutch engaging. Other gears worked fine. Shifter felt fine.
Drained the oil and filtered through a paper towel. There is a very small amount of metallic grit. Barely visible. I could feel it rubbing the oil between my fingers but could only see one two actual specks.
I'm torn about how to proceed. My mechanical skills are modest, at best. I think dealer prices for parts and labor would be exorbitant.
I don't think I'd get much selling it as a parts bike. My best bet might be to find someone competent in the area (like Sherman/SDwarf) and see if he wants a nice winter project.
Thanks to all for your input.
For those that have offered parts. Thank you too. I may take you up it, but do not want to impose on your generosity just yet. At least not until I know how I am going to proceed.
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Sherman would be a great choice if he wanted to take this on. Good luck with it - steve
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I agree with those in the replace the whole motor camp. Reason for this is that if there are any metal bits in there, even with a full teardown, you run the risk of eventually having something work loose and ruining yet another gearbox. Where are you located? If you're on the East Coast, I'd be happy to help you do the motor swap or any other work that's needed.
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Sending an email to Sherman now. If he's interested in a winter project, then that's a no-brainer.
If not, the engine has to come out one way or another. With the help of the Clymer's manual, I can probably get the engine out.
Getting it fixed, or swapping a new one in may be another matter, but it will be a while before the project gets to that point.
Thanks again for all your input.
P.S. Props to my wife. She green-lighted spending the time/money to get it fixed. Her words were something to the affect of "you won't get much selling it for parts and you'll be miserable without a bike".
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I don't mean to thread-jack, but how the heck did this happen?! I've missed plenty of shifts but never lost a gear over it.
Is this a matter of really high RPMs and a clutch dump? More than once I've heard an awful racket from the motor when I missed a shift; I always grab the clutch and ride it down till the RPMs match wherever I was in the gear box.
Does it take a bunch of times for this to happen? Or is it one fell swoop?
Between this and my cold weather starter clutch slipping, I'm getting all worried...There's a 110 block heater on it with really thin synthetic and that's the only reason it ever starts in cold weather now. I just can't split cases mid-winter on my cold-weather bike so I'm following this thread.
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I don't mean to thread-jack, but how the heck did this happen?! I've missed plenty of shifts but never lost a gear over it.
Is this a matter of really high RPMs and a clutch dump? More than once I've heard an awful racket from the motor when I missed a shift; I always grab the clutch and ride it down till the RPMs match wherever I was in the gear box.
Does it take a bunch of times for this to happen? Or is it one fell swoop?
Between this and my cold weather starter clutch slipping, I'm getting all worried...There's a 110 block heater on it with really thin synthetic and that's the only reason it ever starts in cold weather now. I just can't split cases mid-winter on my cold-weather bike so I'm following this thread.
Not sure exactly. It was an instantaneous thing.
I was in third, cruising easy and about to go into fourth, when I saw a guy coming out of a side street pretty quickly. So I went back to Third and when I let out the clutch, there was just a terrible racket and no forward motion. This was all around 3000 to 4000. Nothing too aggressive or crazy.
So it was Third, Clutch in, Shift to Fourth but never release clutch, back to Third, release clutch, game over.
In any event, Sherman is going to take a look at after the holidays. It still sucks, but I feel much better now that there is a plan of action of someone competent to execute it.
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I don't mean to thread-jack, but how the heck did this happen?! I've missed plenty of shifts but never lost a gear over it.
Is this a matter of really high RPMs and a clutch dump? More than once I've heard an awful racket from the motor when I missed a shift; I always grab the clutch and ride it down till the RPMs match wherever I was in the gear box.
Does it take a bunch of times for this to happen? Or is it one fell swoop?
Between this and my cold weather starter clutch slipping, I'm getting all worried...There's a 110 block heater on it with really thin synthetic and that's the only reason it ever starts in cold weather now. I just can't split cases mid-winter on my cold-weather bike so I'm following this thread.
Ummm Jen, dont you live in Georgia? Whats up with this cold weather talk???
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Hi Jen , I am a little confused.
I assume your not talking about a C10. Stock C10's do not come with a clutched starter. I was just curious as to what a 'Cold Weather ' bike is? or a Cold Weather starter clutch? I grew up in Canada and no one told us about these things. Maybe russian or german bike? You have to split the cases for a starter?
Sorry for the confusion.
Update: I was doing some research. Are you referring to the 'one way' bearing being bad? I thought those things were bullet proof. I guess not.
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Brownja,,, do you have an update on the gear box?
Ride safe, Ted
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Brownja,,, do you have an update on the gear box?
Ride safe, Ted
It's still sitting in my garage waiting for the trailer ride of shame. At least it's stripped down so no one will recognize it.
Hope to hear from Sherman soon on when he can start working on it.
Thanks,
jb
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Ok, thanks.
Please keep us posted on what you find.
Ride safe, Ted
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Sherman found teeth in the pan.
Engine is coming all the way next.
I may be putting the call out for parts as soon as he figures out what it's going to need.
Thanks everyone!
jb
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wow, Teeth in the pan... seriously, i wouldn't expect that from a higher gear, maybe 1st or 2nd, but not 4th. If I had to guess I'd think that gear was made improperly, and this was it's failure. It'll be interesting what the final outcome is, but I expect this is going to be expensive, labor-wise. Steve
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wow, Teeth in the pan... seriously, I wouldn't expect that from a higher gear, maybe 1st or 2nd, but not 4th. If I had to guess I'd think that gear was made improperly, and this was it's failure.
+1... Keep us posted.
Ride safe, Ted
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Mine had stripped teeth off of several cogs.
That's what happens when it selects more than one gear at the same time.
Pic below is after I had replaced all the damaged parts as well as all 3 shift forks and some other pieces.
For some reason I can't find any pics of the damage but it took some time to locate all the bits and piece them together to make certain that I hadn't missed any.
(http://gtr1000.com/graphics/gearbox/That%20bloody%20gearbox.jpg)
Writeup is here
http://gtr1000.com/graphics/gearbox/GEARBOX.HTM (http://gtr1000.com/graphics/gearbox/GEARBOX.HTM)
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Got the bike back today.
Sherman (with some help from Dave Muir) did a great job. It wasn't cheap, but a lot less than a dealer have charged and there was no way I could tackle that myself.
A few teeth actually broke off.
Here are some pics.
(http://i.imgur.com/D09Xw.jpg) (http://imgur.com/D09Xw)
(http://i.imgur.com/UQUSl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/UQUSl)
(http://i.imgur.com/2ZZBa.jpg) (http://imgur.com/2ZZBa)
(http://i.imgur.com/uKs4M.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uKs4M)
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That is excellent!
Hopefully the weather is good for a ride where you are living.
What did it cost you for the repair, and which currency, Beer or Dollars? ;D
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That is excellent!
Hopefully the weather is good for a ride where you are living.
What did it cost you for the repair, and which currency, Beer or Dollars? ;D
I don't want to say exactly how much.
But consider that it involved removing the engine, splitting the cases, splitting the cases on the donor engine, swapping the transmission, re-assembling, then replacing the engine, balance shaft adjustment and carb synch, and a test drive.
That's a lot of labor, plus the tranny internals, seals, oil and filter, etc.
So it was real money, but for what was involved, and what the alternatives were, it was a real bargain.
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YAY!
Glad to see you're up and running again! If you ever come down this way (Central NJ) hit me up, and I'll buy you a beer. Same goes for the nice gents who fixed it for you.