Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Scaffolder on November 06, 2011, 08:45:14 AM
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I have been using Rotella but now that Walmart sells all Mobil 1 gallons for $26. I have been thinking about changing to the Mobil 1 version. That is even cheaper than Rotella. Not all Walmarts carry it, but 1 out of 3 does. I wish you could get Mobil 1 4T for that price.
Has anyone been using this oil?
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Personally I would not use any 5W oil in my bike. I've been using Mobil 1 15W-50 for as long as I can remember in all my bikes (and some cars) with no issues.
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Use whatever you like. Just make sure you don't pick an oil with friction additives.
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Is the Mobil 1 you refer to JASO MA compliant? I know that both Rotella T & T6 are, but do not recall seeing JASO MA on the Mobil 1 container.
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I stopped using Rotella when they reformulated it, but if I were to use now, I'd go with the 15-40 stuff. The "synthetic" stuff is group III dyno, that's all. The 15-40 cheap stuff also has a little more zinc, could help your tranny/shifting.
As for M1 5-40, it is worth noting that there is another version which is much better, but cost more. I think it is called Mobil 1"european formula" and the only places I know that sell it are Pep Boys and Dodge dealerships.
It meets the requirements for a lot more engines (mostly diesel) that the regular M1 5-40 truck/diesel stuff you see. It is also the only VW approved TDI oil that is 30w (most oils approved for TDI's are 5-40)- gives me an extra 3 mpg.I stopped being a M1 fan years ago with the switch to group III, then this awesome stuff came out. I haven't tried it in my bike and likely never will as it is $&T#@&^ expensive (almost $10 a quart) and I can get Redline 5-40 motorcycle oil for $7 a qt. But hey, if you see some that is accidentally priced the same as regular M1, pick it up!
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I stopped using Rotella when they reformulated it, but if I were to use now, I'd go with the 15-40 stuff. The "synthetic" stuff is group III dyno, that's all. The 15-40 cheap stuff also has a little more zinc, could help your tranny/shifting.
As for M1 5-40, it is worth noting that there is another version which is much better, but cost more. I think it is called Mobil 1"european formula" and the only places I know that sell it are Pep Boys and Dodge dealerships.
It meets the requirements for a lot more engines (mostly diesel) that the regular M1 5-40 truck/diesel stuff you see. It is also the only VW approved TDI oil that is 30w (most oils approved for TDI's are 5-40)- gives me an extra 3 mpg.I stopped being a M1 fan years ago with the switch to group III, then this awesome stuff came out. I haven't tried it in my bike and likely never will as it is $&T#@&^ expensive (almost $10 a quart) and I can get Redline 5-40 motorcycle oil for $7 a qt. But hey, if you see some that is accidentally priced the same as regular M1, pick it up!
Where you getting Redline for $7 a quart? :o
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If I spend that kind of money I'll get the Mobil 1 4T. I'll probably stick with the Rotella. It has been good for me all along on my old 08 and my 2010 bikes. As for the VW TDIs I always used the Castrol Syntec. The VWs have 10,000 mile intervals too. It's easier to spend extra $$$$ on it. I loved the VW Golf TDI I had.
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Is the Mobil 1 you refer to JASO MA compliant? I know that both Rotella T & T6 are, but do not recall seeing JASO MA on the Mobil 1 container.
Nope, M1 15W 50 is not Jaso compliant. If that's important a person would not want to use this oil.
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Is the Mobil 1 you refer to JASO MA compliant? I know that both Rotella T & T6 are, but do not recall seeing JASO MA on the Mobil 1 container.
+1
Most diesel oils contain some "bike unfriendly" additives.
Plus Shell > Exxon/Mobil (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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Personally I would not use any 5W oil in my bike. I've been using Mobil 1 15W-50 for as long as I can remember in all my bikes (and some cars) with no issues.
Depending on the temperature range, the supported weights are all either 10W or 20W 30/40/50 . 10W is the recommended weight consistently below freezing temps. With that being said, the scale stops at 14 degrees F. The only way I would run it would be if I were running the bike below those temps but then again if it's that cold I would be in the cage.
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I've used 5W-XX oil since I've had my C14, but synthetic.
My Shell Oil friend said that 5W number factors mainly during start-up cold engine temps and synth, whether blended or full, has a whole different characteristic when cold. 5W a non-issue.
He could've been BSing me but I've ran 5W-XX on all my bikes track and street with no issue.
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I wonder why Kawi is only recommending 10w as the lowest then...? My goodness, they should have talked to you first, Steve. They're probably just nervous Nellies and overly conservative. Maybe heard a rumor or two on the Net as well. ;) The power of KIPASS is protects us all no matter what we do to the bike, right? I love it!
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My Shell Oil friend said that 5W number factors mainly during start-up cold engine temps and synth, whether blended or full, has a whole different characteristic when cold. 5W a non-issue.
From everything I've read, this is totally correct. A 5W-40 and 10W-40 are both 40 weight oils when at operating temperature. They are the same (all other things being equal). The only difference is that the 5W won't thicken as much when it's cold compared to a 10W and therefore will do a better job of lubricating the engine when it's cold. There are no disadvantages to running an oil with a lower Winter number (again, all other things being equal). I would happily run a 0W-40 oil in my bike if it was available.
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From everything I've read, this is totally correct. A 5W-40 and 10W-40 are both 40 weight oils at operating temperature. They are the same (all other things being equal). The only difference is that the 5W won't thicken as much when it's cold compared to a 10W and therefore will do a better job of lubricating the engine when it's cold. There are no disadvantages to running an oil with a lower Winter number (again, all other things being equal). I would happily run a 0W-40 oil in my bike if it was available.
^^^^that.
And drag racers run 0-XX synth weight at our drag strip all the time, I know of one ZX14 with over 10,000 miles on it, one quarter mile at a time. This was without KiPass to protect it too (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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I wonder why Kawi is only recommending 10w as the lowest then...? My goodness, they should have talked to you first, Steve. They're probably just nervous Nellies and overly conservative. Maybe heard a rumor or two on the Net as well. ;) The power of KIPASS is protects us all no matter what we do to the bike, right? I love it!
just saw this, and yes sir indeed (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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Where you getting Redline for $7 a quart? :o
Local oil wholeseller that sells the public. Minimum amount is a case of 12 qts.
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I do not think that is correct Steve- the oils that contain friction modifiers are all 30 weight (or Xw- 30 multi- weight) oils as far as I know. Diesel oils are not energy saving and do not contain friction modifiers, again to the best of my knowledge. Diesel oils are all heavier than 30 weight, at least the multi- weight diesel oils are. I have seen straight 30 weight diesel rated oil but then again, no straight weight oil is energy saving either to the best of my knowledge.
Diesel oils seem to work well in motorcycles and are very popular with no nasty side effects that I am aware of, although I do not care for the way my C-14 shifts using 5w- 40 Rotella (the new stuff, the older stuff was better in my experience).
Brian
+1
Most diesel oils contain some "bike unfriendly" additives.
Plus Shell > Exxon/Mobil (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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BDF you're right, i should've said "certain" diesel oils are no good. if they have the "starbust" or "energy saving" labels they are garbage don't put that crap in your bike. but doesn't matter, rotella T6 synth is motorcycle rated anyway was my point.
interesting oil threads (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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I use delo 400 in my gl1500 with no problems so far, thats all the original owner used in it as well. 115000 miles so far with no problems but not sure i would use it in my c14
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Have used only Penzoil 30 wt in all my cars and motorcycles for 45 years, except one
Change every 3000 miles on autos, 1500 miles on motorcycles and once/season on lawn equipment.
Have had a multitude of cars and 27 motorcycles and not an oil related failure on any of them.
Worry more about getting it changed frequently than what brand/type you are going to use ;)
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I do not think that is correct Steve- the oils that contain friction modifiers are all 30 weight (or Xw- 30 multi- weight) oils as far as I know. Diesel oils are not energy saving and do not contain friction modifiers, again to the best of my knowledge. Diesel oils are all heavier than 30 weight, at least the multi- weight diesel oils are. I have seen straight 30 weight diesel rated oil but then again, no straight weight oil is energy saving either to the best of my knowledge.
Diesel oils seem to work well in motorcycles and are very popular with no nasty side effects that I am aware of, although I do not care for the way my C-14 shifts using 5w- 40 Rotella (the new stuff, the older stuff was better in my experience).
I see all these claims of clutch damaging "friction modifiers" but in all of these threads, have yet to see someone actually post an example of a clutch destroying FM in a 5-30w oil that is not in any bike specific oil. Can't say that moly is the culprit as Torco Motorcycle oil has one of the highest levels of moly of any oil and you don't hear of people complaining of clutch problems.
Not all diesel oils are 40w. As i pointed out, M1 5-30w ESP meets VW504,507- those are more demanding specs than the Rotella 5-40w can meet.
The biggest difference between diesel oils and car oils is:
1) Higher level of detergents (to deal with soot).
2) Higher level of ZDDP (this is what the bike's tranny likes).
I guess my point is that there are cheap diesel oils you can use in your bike, but these oils (I am talking about the Rotella twins) are not the best diesel oils out there,
not by a long shot. However, spending extra $$ for the better diesel oils defeats the purpose of buying them- which is to save money over buying bike specific oil.
I think in my neck of the woods, that M1 5-40 stuff is over $7 a quart. For a little less than that or the same price, I got Redline 5-40 pao/ester motorcycle oil.
As for weights, well, I have seen more than one oil analysis that showed Rotella 5-40 to sheer down to a 5-30 within 2k miles (the VI didn't hold up). Yet, the wear analysis (even on a ZX14 with 5K miles on the oil) was still pretty good.
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You may well be right about moly <not> causing any damage to a wet clutch. It seems to be commonly accepted that some friction modifiers, specifically molybdenum disulfide ('moly') may damage wet clutches in motorcycles but I have not seen any data detailing any real instances either. ??? I tend to avoid them myself probably because of the negative hype but again, all of the fuel saving oils are 30 weight and that is a bit thin for a gear mesh transmission anyway so I guess I could choose either reason for avoiding them.
I think you are also right about what we are calling diesel oils in general but some types are sold specifically for diesel use and so labeled. As far as the level of ZDDP, I believe the new formulations of Rotella are all at or under the 800 PPM mark as 'suggested' by the US gov't to avoid coating catalytic converters in the exhausts of modern vehicles. Specific motorcycle oils <may> contain higher levels of Zinc, and some racing oils absolutely do but generally the new trend in all oils aimed at street vehicles is to lower the Zinc levels to a max. of 800 PPM from the older 1,200 to 1,500 PPM.
Brian
I see all these claims of clutch damaging "friction modifiers" but in all of these threads, have yet to see someone actually post an example of a clutch destroying FM in a 5-30w oil that is not in any bike specific oil. Can't say that moly is the culprit as Torco Motorcycle oil has one of the highest levels of moly of any oil and you don't hear of people complaining of clutch problems.
Not all diesel oils are 40w. As i pointed out, M1 5-30w ESP meets VW504,507- those are more demanding specs than the Rotella 5-40w can meet.
The biggest difference between diesel oils and car oils is:
1) Higher level of detergents (to deal with soot).
2) Higher level of ZDDP (this is what the bike's tranny likes).
I guess my point is that there are cheap diesel oils you can use in your bike, but these oils (I am talking about the Rotella twins) are not the best diesel oils out there,
not by a long shot. However, spending extra $$ for the better diesel oils defeats the purpose of buying them- which is to save money over buying bike specific oil.
I think in my neck of the woods, that M1 5-40 stuff is over $7 a quart. For a little less than that or the same price, I got Redline 5-40 pao/ester motorcycle oil.
As for weights, well, I have seen more than one oil analysis that showed Rotella 5-40 to sheer down to a 5-30 within 2k miles (the VI didn't hold up). Yet, the wear analysis (even on a ZX14 with 5K miles on the oil) was still pretty good.
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Bottom line is that $20 worth of Rotella Synth (or 18 or 22 whatever the going price is) is an acceptable long term alternative to more expensive Moto specific synthetics in my opinion, backed by my last 180,000 miles of riding with it.
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I've used 5W-XX oil since I've had my C14, but synthetic.
My Shell Oil friend said that 5W number factors mainly during start-up cold engine temps and synth, whether blended or full, has a whole different characteristic when cold. 5W a non-issue.
He could've been BSing me but I've ran 5W-XX on all my bikes track and street with no issue.
The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft. This changes the oil equation substantially. That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube. So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment? Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.
Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables. I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14. I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs. 4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...
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The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft. This changes the oil equation substantially. That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube. So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment? Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.
Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables. I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14. I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs. 4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...
I have "NEVER" repeat "NEVER" heard of a single instance of engine damage or premature wear of anykind from using a 5W40 weight oil in a motorcycle. Matter of fact the 5W40 Rotella is the most popular choice for many of us that own thumpers, talk about an engine that works hard and gets abused. Do whatever makes you happy and gives you sweet dreams at night, paranoia will destroy ya.
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The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft. This changes the oil equation substantially. That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube. So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment? Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.
Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables. I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14. I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs. 4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...
Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil. The W stands for "Winter." 5W-40 is a 40 weight oil. 15W-40 is also 40 weight oil. The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures. All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature. An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40). Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup. When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.
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Oil threads rule the earth....wait....
I meant KiPass does (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/badteeth.gif)
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A very important point that I think a lot of people miss- 5W is NOT a 5 weight oil. It is an oil that behaves as a 5 weight oil would behave at -18 degrees C. As the oil warms, it behaves as a higher viscosity oil would behave at each given temperature. A very important thing to remember is that all motor oils will always get more viscous at lower temperatures. Somehow the idea has spread that multi- weight oils do not behave that way but they do- they get thicker as the temperature drops but they do not get AS thick AS fast as single weight oils of the same weight would. So a 40 weight oil is the same viscosity at 100 C as a 5W- 40 oil while the same 40 weight oil is much thicker than a 5W-40 oil is AT -18 C (and, in fact, all temperatures less than 100 C).
Turning over a cold engine at <relatively> cold temperatures puts tremendous strain on the battery, starter, starter drive and also does not provide optimum and often, not even adequate, lubrication. A 15W-40 motor oil is really hard on an engine at, say, 20 F when cranking. A 5W- 40 is much easier / better for the same engine at such low temperatures.
As far as the gear oil comparisons, SAE weight ratings do not cross between gear oils and motor oils so comparisons are not useful. Of course motor oil is not an ideal gear lubricant otherwise we would use it for that purpose. I think the real question is whether or not a 5W oil is sufficient for use in a motorcycle engine overall- it is not useful to provide ideal lubrication for one component at the expense of properly lubricating all the other components of the same engine / transmission and compromises must be made.
Brian
Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil. The W stands for "Winter." 5W-40 is a 40 weight oil. 15W-40 is also 40 weight oil. The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures. All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature. An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40). Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup. When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.
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Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil. The W stands for "Winter." 5W-40 is a 40 weight oil. 15W-40 is also 40 weight oil. The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures. All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature. An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40). Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup. When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.
You are dead wrong-- 5w-XX oils are 5 weight base stocks that change to a 40 weight when the engine temperature rises. They contain VIIs (viscosity index improvers) that act like little molecular springs as temps rise. These molecular "springs" thicken the oil so that it now has the properties of a 40 weight oil. That's how the oil can flow well at low temps and still protect at high temps. As the oil shears down from wear, it loses this ability and becomes a lighter and lighter oil. In many circumstances oil will shear from a 40 weight to a 20 weight oil in less than 5000 miles. This is precisely the problem with the C14 -- between the transmission and right-angle drive they shear the oil quickly. So while 5w-40 CAN adequately protect the C14 engine when new, will it protect after 5000 miles of heavy use during stressful circumstances? You don't assume the ideal condition, but the most unlikely condition. All oil can protect engines -- it is the extreme conditions that separate them.
Now Pokey has seen all the failures that can possibly happen to the C14 engine because he obviously has opened many of these engines during his vast experience and he is qualified to say that 5w-40 is fine. But he obviously doesn't know motor oil. For those of you that want to learn more -- go to Bob is the Oil Guy and spend years reading what oil industry experts have to say.
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Qoute:
"Where are These Modifiers Used?
Viscosity improvers are primarily used in multigrade engine oils, gear oils, automatic transmission fluids, power steering fluids, greases and various hydraulic fluids. Most of these uses involve an automobile, and this is because automobiles are subjected to tremendous temperature swings.
For instance, in the crankcase, an oil with a low viscosity at low temperature is needed so the oil pump can push the oil to the top of the engine during those cold morning starts. The oil also needs to be viscous enough to protect the engine when it reaches operating temperature. This is when the use of modifiers in multigrade oil is beneficial.
Figure 1 shows how an SAE 10W30 retains the low-temperature properties of an SAE10 (providing the low-temperature pumpability), while the additive gives it the characteristics of an SAE30 at higher temperatures (providing the protection of a thicker oil film). The SAE 10W30 is made by blending a viscosity modifier with an SAE10 base oil, and there is actually no SAE30 involved."
From Machine Lubrication @ http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1327/viscosity-index-improvers (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1327/viscosity-index-improvers)
It took me 30 seconds to find this info doing a search on Google -- the least Pokey and Brian could do is perform due diligence before writing patently incorrect statements ----
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Yeah Pokey! Straighten out!
I don't think my statements were incorrect- a 5 weight oil that is modified is no longer a 5 weight oil. 5W-40 only behaves like a 5 weight oil at temperatures substantially below freezing.
Of course you are correct in saying that the wider the range between the stated oil weights, the faster that oil will shear down to a lower overall weight. That is one of the compromises when choosing an oil type, weight, etc.
Back to the beginning of this thought though, I do not believe using a 5W-40 oil in a motorcycle (one with a shared transmission) is inherently worse than using a 10W-40 or a 15W-40 at normal operating parameters including temperature. At very low temperatures, I find a 5W-40 oil to be kinder to the entire engine than other oils with a heavier winter weight.
All of that said, I no longer use Rotella 5W-40 because I do not care for the way the C-14 shifts when using the new formula. I use Rotella 15W-40, usually mixed with Valvoline 10W-40 until winter, when I go to Valvoline 10W-40 alone.
Brian
Qoute:
<snip>
It took me 30 seconds to find this info doing a search on Google -- the least Pokey and Brian could do is perform due diligence before writing patently incorrect statements ----
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You are dead wrong-- 5w-XX oils are 5 weight base stocks that change to a 40 weight when the engine temperature rises. They contain VIIs (viscosity index improvers) that act like little molecular springs as temps rise. These molecular "springs" thicken the oil so that it now has the properties of a 40 weight oil. That's how the oil can flow well at low temps and still protect at high temps. As the oil shears down from wear, it loses this ability and becomes a lighter and lighter oil. In many circumstances oil will shear from a 40 weight to a 20 weight oil in less than 5000 miles. This is precisely the problem with the C14 -- between the transmission and right-angle drive they shear the oil quickly. So while 5w-40 CAN adequately protect the C14 engine when new, will it protect after 5000 miles of heavy use during stressful circumstances? You don't assume the ideal condition, but the most unlikely condition. All oil can protect engines -- it is the extreme conditions that separate them.
This is only true when you're talking about mineral oils, not synthetics. With synthetics it's just the opposite. A 5W-40 is based on a 40 grade stock, and just happens to flow well enough (without VI modifiers) to earn the 5W rating as well.
Quote:
A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating temperature of 212°F
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/ (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/)
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@Zedhead...... p*** on Bob is the oil guy and all his know it all flock of oil expert wannabe sheep, allot of bad info and opinions there.
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They'll be no p*****g on people while I'm around unless absolutely necessary and we haven't reached that point....
Timeout.
Timeout over..
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I read a technical paper by Redline Oil that said that synthetic oil (we're talking real synthetic- pao/ester, not that group III crap) has a natural viscosity range of 10-30. To achieve a 5-30 rating, they use a slightly different base with a little VI added to it. They went on to say you should use the narrowest range needed as VI additives break down and when they do, can lead to slightly higher deposits in the engine. If you live where it is always warm, or don't ride in the winter, a 5-40 might seem like over kill ( I think 10-40 is good down to 22 degrees but I'd have to check), but it really is getting close to nit picking.
After reading that paper, I thought of the old Castrol synthetic 5-50 oil, wow, that must of had a crap load of VI dumped into it.
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Have used only Penzoil 30 wt in all my cars and motorcycles for 45 years, except one
Change every 3000 miles on autos, 1500 miles on motorcycles and once/season on lawn equipment.
Have had a multitude of cars and 27 motorcycles and not an oil related failure on any of them.
Worry more about getting it changed frequently than what brand/type you are going to use ;)
1500 miles? :o I would be changing oil every two days sometimes. That is totally unnecessary. Even 3000 miles in a car, or a bike isn't necessary and extremely wasteful.
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Me too.
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Me too.
Me too what?
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I'm agreeing with PH14 in that changing oil every 1500 miles is a bit excessive unless that's all you ride in a year.
Me too = +1 It's the new math. :)
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I read a technical paper by Redline Oil that said that synthetic oil (we're talking real synthetic- pao/ester, not that group III crap) has a natural viscosity range of 10-30. To achieve a 5-30 rating, they use a slightly different base with a little VI added to it. They went on to say you should use the narrowest range needed as VI additives break down and when they do, can lead to slightly higher deposits in the engine. If you live where it is always warm, or don't ride in the winter, a 5-40 might seem like over kill ( I think 10-40 is good down to 22 degrees but I'd have to check), but it really is getting close to nit picking.
After reading that paper, I thought of the old Castrol synthetic 5-50 oil, wow, that must of had a crap load of VI dumped into it.
I've read this in several articles as well. Makes sense, otherwise manufactors would make just one oil, 0W-50 that would serve all vehicles in all seasons for the whole planet, but they don't.
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I'm agreeing with PH14 in that changing oil every 1500 miles is a bit excessive unless that's all you ride in a year.
Me too = +1 It's the new math. :)
Gotcha.......and that isn't just excessive, that is just a plain waste of natural resources.
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I am not sure who is right or who is wrong.
But i change my oil when the shifting gets 'notchy'.
to me, at that point it is wore out. It has been less than 3,000 miles each time on the C14.
i change the oil in my DRz prolly every 300 - 500 miles because i can feel the shifting deteriorate.
oil is cheap compared to a trans rebuild.
once i have fresh oil in there ... all is smooth again.
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What oil do you use that wears out so fast? I use Rotella Synth 5w40 for at least 5000 miles sometimes 6 or 7000 and the shift quality never changes. This goes for all three of my bikes.
I am not sure who is right or who is wrong.
But i change my oil when the shifting gets 'notchy'.
to me, at that point it is wore out. It has been less than 3,000 miles each time on the C14.
i change the oil in my DRz prolly every 300 - 500 miles because i can feel the shifting deteriorate.
oil is cheap compared to a trans rebuild.
once i have fresh oil in there ... all is smooth again.
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I'm using the Rotella and my shifting feels different around the same time as mkorn. I change my oil and rear diff. gear oil between 3,000 and 3,500 miles. I won't run it any longer. The rear diff. oil could go way longer (maybe 10,000 miles between changes),but I just have the good habit of changing it every time.
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I also had some notchy shifting with the T6 Rotella, I ran it 2 or 3 times and I noticed the same thing around 2500-3000 miles each time. I have been running the Rotella dino (10-40) and haven't noticed any notchy shifts even running 4500-5000 miles between oil changes.
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This notchy shifting issue is a real puzzler for me as I don't see the scientific basis for it. Isn't one of the main features of Synthetic oil that it maintains its effectiveness longer than fossil oil? Can anyone suggest an explaination of what is going on to cause this notchiness?
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I also had some notchy shifting with the T6 Rotella, I ran it 2 or 3 times and I noticed the same thing around 2500-3000 miles each time. I have been running the Rotella dino (10-40) and haven't noticed any notchy shifts even running 4500-5000 miles between oil changes.
Jeremy, do you mean 15-40 dino?
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I'm running the Rotella T6, but only have about 500 miles on it. The shifting is great, no notchiness at all. Slips right in no problems. I just sold a Suzuki M109R v-twin and also used the T6 in it with no problems.
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Jeremy, do you mean 15-40 dino?
My mistake, yes I do use 15-40.
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Jeremy, I too felt the notchy shifting with the rotella synthetic. It was ok in my yz 250 but in the sv and C14 felt notchy.
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top~
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This notchy shifting issue is a real puzzler for me as I don't see the scientific basis for it. Isn't one of the main features of Synthetic oil that it maintains its effectiveness longer than fossil oil? Can anyone suggest an explaination of what is going on to cause this notchiness?
My guess is that the oil has less zinc in it than the old stuff.They reduce the zddp level in the new rotella to improve catalyst life.
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My guess is that the oil has less zinc in it than the old stuff.They reduce the zddp level in the new rotella to improve catalyst life.
But how would the lack of zinc effect the shifting?
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What oil do you use that wears out so fast? I use Rotella Synth 5w40 for at least 5000 miles sometimes 6 or 7000 and the shift quality never changes. This goes for all three of my bikes.
In the C14 i have been using Rotella T for the last 2 changes.
I dont like this stuff and prolly wont run it again ... it is leaving black residue on my exhaust tip.
I didnt notice it with the other oil.
In the DRz because i change it so much, i use cheap Valvoline Motorcycle specific oil.
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In the C14 i have been using Rotella T for the last 2 changes.
I dont like this stuff and prolly wont run it again ... it is leaving black residue on my exhaust tip.
I didnt notice it with the other oil.
In the DRz because i change it so much, i use cheap Valvoline Motorcycle specific oil.
That's interesting. My exhaust has black residue and I use Mobil 1. What oil were you using before that did not do this?
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That's interesting. My exhaust has black residue and I use Mobil 1. What oil were you using before that did not do this?
+1
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In the C14 i have been using Rotella T for the last 2 changes.
I dont like this stuff and prolly wont run it again ... it is leaving black residue on my exhaust tip.
I didnt notice it with the other oil.
In the DRz because i change it so much, i use cheap Valvoline Motorcycle specific oil.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/thinker.gif) I might have to call the Shell customer care number if my oil was responsible for such a thing.
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But how would the lack of zinc effect the shifting?
Zinc is an extreme pressure additive. Very useful in a transmission.
Black stuff in exhaust? I'd blame the bike's rich tuning as it is probably carbon.
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Does anyone still suspect 5W or 0W will decrease the life of your engine
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Its good to know i'm not the only one ... maybe it is a rich condition and has nothing to do with the oil.
The previous oil was whatever Mama kawi puts in and then i used Spectrol which the dealer recommended.
With all the positive talk about Rotella and the cost of it, i decided to try it. It seems to turn dark in the sight glass rather quickly also.
i only have 1700 on this change and it is still shifting nicely.
I dont have enough left for another change in the C14, but i may try it in the DRz ... the DRz is hard on oil. I have even tried Mobil 1 in it and that only lasted slightly longer, i got about 800 mile out of that change.
I'm not saying that going longer is bad ... i just dont want to do it in my bikes.
I really appreciate when people are willing to post about doing things different than the masses.
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On the OP, I believe Rotella is a class III semi-synthetic, and Mobil1 is a class IV ester. IIRC
All this oil input gives me a slippery headache, so I split the difference....I use 1/2 Rotella 15w/40 and 1/2 Rotella 5w/40 resulting in a 10w/40 'blended'oil ( w/ JASO MA rating).
Either way, I can count by 5 easier than most others, so I change it all every 5k miles.
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Motor oil is mostly used to lubricate an engine in a dynamic mode, meaning that two parts are separated by a film of oil and one moves in relationship to the other. The parts themselves never actually touch each other, only the oil. Shifting is different in that it uses static lubrication where two (or more) pieces of metal actually touch and drag against each other. The parts are still covered in a film of oil but there is no speed to have the parts use the oil dynamically; think of it as one part 'oil skiing' on a film of oil rather than sliding against its mating part.
Shifting involves sliding parts against each other and uses a mechanism called boundary lubrication of the oil. I am not sure what component(s) of motor oil contribute to smooth or notchy shifting but they do appear to be the materials used for static, boundary lubrication; materials such as ZDDP, moly, sulphur, chlorine, and perhaps others. Motor oil generally uses only ZDDP and moly as boundary lubes and generally only ZDDP. I would be tempted to say that the reduction of ZDDP in motor oil over the last couple of years is what is causing notchy shifting because bringing the ZDDP level up results in very noticeably shifting. But I have also found Valvoline and Pennzoil auto grade motor oils to shift extremely smoothly, at least when they are fresh and clean, and I do not believe either one of those contain any more ZDDP than Rotella. ?? There must be another compound(s) used that cause the difference in addition too, or in lieu of, ZDDP.
Another odd thing I have noticed is that the auto oils I have tried start out great regarding shifting ease and smoothness but deteriorate fairly rapidly so that by the time the oil has something like 2K miles on it the shifting is again rough. But Rotella 15W-40 with the zinc level raised seems to shift well and about the same as new when the oil has more than 3K miles on it. ??? I have been tempted to add some zinc to oil that has accumulated some mileage and is shifting poorly just to see if zinc alone would restore the original shifting smoothness but I have always just changed the oil rather than tinker with the old stuff.
Like most things regarding motor oil I suspect we will never really know specifically what is going on. The issue will continue to be debated and speculated on forever but there really is very little data out there to review. The people who really care about lubrication have collected a lot of data (the subject is tribology) but it seems to be based on the use of special and expensive lubricants. For example, NASA has a great deal of knowledge about what is required to lubricate things in the vacuum of space (a very harsh environment) but they also do not care to save money on lubricants. Same thing with motor oil, the people who really care about how it performs typically use good grades of known brand oil and maintain the engines carefully. What we really need is to see a few million vehicle- miles on different oils and to quantify the results.
Brian
This notchy shifting issue is a real puzzler for me as I don't see the scientific basis for it. Isn't one of the main features of Synthetic oil that it maintains its effectiveness longer than fossil oil? Can anyone suggest an explaination of what is going on to cause this notchiness?
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On the OP, I believe Rotella is a class III semi-synthetic, and Mobil1 is a class IV ester. IIRC
All this oil input gives me a slippery headache, so I split the difference....I use 1/2 Rotella 15w/40 and 1/2 Rotella 5w/40 resulting in a 10w/40 'blended'oil ( w/ JASO MA rating).
Either way, I can count by 5 easier than most others, so I change it all every 5k miles.
I believe it is not.......
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I believe you are correct. Just going by memory but Mobil sued another oil company for marketing group III oil as 'synthetic' while they were using group VI as synthetic. They lost the court case, which set a precedent that group III oils (from petroleum) can be labeled and sold as 'synthetic' oils and then went on to sell the less expensive group III oil as synthetic themselves. It is ironic....
Brian
I believe it is not.......
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I believe it is not.......
I agree that their car oils are Group III, but I believe their 4T motorcycle specific oils are one of the few Group IV oils, along with Redline and Amsoil.
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I agree that their car oils are Group III, but I believe their 4T motorcycle specific oils are one of the few Group IV oils, along with Redline and Amsoil.
And I am pretty sure it is still a Group III, not that I care because I don't run Mobil 1 anymore.
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I'm going back to Kawi Dino oil.
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I've found this link very helpful in the past. It's basically an organized Q&A session with a knowledgeable lubrication engineer on a Ducati forum.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=blbuus3sdt85etcfb1tvj3bap1&topic=1912.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=blbuus3sdt85etcfb1tvj3bap1&topic=1912.0)
This is just one of his quotes regarding the Mobil 1 4T:
Regarding synthetic oil viscosity stability relative to temperature change. My primary thrust was to hammer home the principals of viscosity change for synthetics vs. mineral based oils. Full synthetic oils do change viscosity with temperature change but on a side by side charting, the differerences in those rate of changes are significant. The engine oil you are using is labeled as a "unique fully synthetic lubricant" but is very likely a Group III mineral based oil. In Europe Castrol won the case that Group III Mineral based oils could be termed "synthetic". Later Castrol achieved the same here in the U.S. As example, the pour point indicated on the Product Data Sheet for Shell Advance Ultra 4 10W-40 is -30C (-22F).
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 has a pour point of -54C (-65F).
As you can see, the cold weather performance for a Group IV full, or shall we say 'real', synthetic engine oil is *significantly* lower than a Group III mineral base stock oil. The difference in pour points reflect the viscosity stability of a Group IV or Group V full synthetic... The same correlation applies for high temperature viscosity performance.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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Too much information...brain exploding.... :yikes:
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Nope, M1 15W 50 is not Jaso compliant. If that's important a person would not want to use this oil.
Years ago, a Mobil rep implied to me on the phone that the car 15W-50 would pass JASO MA, if they chose to pay for the testing. Since they had a M/C product, they didn't try. The labels and maybe the formulation has changed since then, though.
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Rotella T6 5w-40 is a Group III+ oil because it is formulated from "slack" wax (wax isomerate) and not typical petroleum. Shell calls it XHVI base oil. XHVI rivals PAO in every way, it is just derived from a different source. It is the same formulation as Shell Helix Ultra which is spec'd by Ferrari -- very good stuff, just not the optimum formulation for the C14.
Because RTS T6 starts out on the lower end of the 40 weight viscosity scale, it "shears" to a 30 weight quite quickly in the C14. By 5000 miles, it could easily be in the 20 weight range. Too low a viscosity for the C14.
Want to know if your oil is PAO ("real" synthetic) XHVI, or just ordinary "hydro-processed" Group III synthetic?
"Only XHVI is made from pure petroleum slack wax and its CAS number is 92026-09-4. The CAS number for the more typical all-hydroprocessed Group III base oils is 64742-54-7. If you want to know what your "synthetic" oil is made from, take a look at the MSDS and look for these numbers. (The CAS number for PAO is 68037-01-4)" -- source BITOG --
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I have done 2 oil changes using Rotella T6 5W40 Synthetic oil since I've started this thread. Just saying.
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I have done 2 oil changes using Rotella T6 5W40 Synthetic oil since I've started this thread. Just saying.
You sir are an oils companies best friend.......with those intervals why not just use generic oils from the supermarkets? Unless you are just riding one helluva lot and still racking up the miles between changes. ;)
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Years ago, a Mobil rep implied to me on the phone that the car 15W-50 would pass JASO MA, if they chose to pay for the testing. Since they had a M/C product, they didn't try. The labels and maybe the formulation has changed since then, though.
I've heard this as well and that's one reason why I continue to use it.
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I run just over 3000 miles per oil change. I think I've done 8 or 9 oil changes this year. I bought my new 2010 in January and have racked up 21,000 miles so far this year. Not bad for living in Maine.
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That is interesting but where does the pseudo synth Rotella 5w40 fit in the base weight category. It is dino based but engineered to meet classifiaction requirements of synth. Is there a clue here to the NOTCHY SHIFTING phenomenon?
This is only true when you're talking about mineral oils, not synthetics. With synthetics it's just the opposite. A 5W-40 is based on a 40 grade stock, and just happens to flow well enough (without VI modifiers) to earn the 5W rating as well.
Quote:
A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating temperature of 212°F
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/ (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/)
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I do not think that is at the root of the poor shifting because the old formula Rotella 5W- 40 was made from the same type of base oil as the current stuff. Something in the additive package changed and the only thing that we know changed was a large reduction of zinc and phosphorous in the form ZDDP. Of course there were probably other changes as well so really only Shell knows what might be causing the shifting quality change and perhaps not even them.
Brian
That is interesting but where does the pseudo synth Rotella 5w40 fit in the base weight category. It is dino based but engineered to meet classifiaction requirements of synth. Is there a clue here to the NOTCHY SHIFTING phenomenon?
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Mine has only shifted bad with Scamsoil.
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That is interesting but where does the pseudo synth Rotella 5w40 fit in the base weight category. It is dino based but engineered to meet classifiaction requirements of synth. Is there a clue here to the NOTCHY SHIFTING phenomenon?
They are talking about Group IV and V synthetic oils -- not Group III like most of the common synthetic oils including Rotella T6. PAOs and POEs ("real" synthetic) meet this quality because they are engineered from sources other than actual petroleum. Group III synthetic oils contain VIIs but in smaller amounts than Group II conventional oils
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I have done 2 oil changes using Rotella T6 5W40 Synthetic oil since I've started this thread. Just saying.
How many miles is that? If you're using RTS T6 -- you should be able to go at least go 4000-5000 miles before changing it. But I still don't recommend using it at all in the C14...
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Under 3500 miles per oil change. I just feel more comfortable with fresh oil. If I were to use the Mobil 1 4T I would stretch it to 5000 miles.
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Well, I am glad I don't have to worry about notchy shifting. I have used Rotella T Synth for all of C14's 64,000 miles except two changes. I have never noticed anything but smooth shifting except for the time I forgot to tighten the shift linkage lock nut.
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Well, I am glad I don't have to worry about notchy shifting. I have used Rotella T Synth for all of C14's 64,000 miles except two changes. I have never noticed anything but smooth shifting except for the time I forgot to tighten the shift linkage lock nut.
I'm sensing a pattern, here..
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I'm sensing a pattern, here..
There certainly WAS a pattern... but I have corrected it. I now double check all fasteners regularly and use locktite. Nothing has fallen off in months.
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Well, I am glad I don't have to worry about notchy shifting. I have used Rotella T Synth for all of C14's 64,000 miles except two changes. I have never noticed anything but smooth shifting except for the time I forgot to tighten the shift linkage lock nut.
Oh my, that may cause your drive shaft to fall off too (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/cheers.gif)
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There certainly WAS a pattern... but I have corrected it. I now double check all fasteners regularly and use locktite. Nothing has fallen off in months.
:thumbs:
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I am not sure who is right or who is wrong.
Gee, here's a thought: Check the manufacturer's specifications and recommendations! ;)
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Yep.
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I have "NEVER" repeat "NEVER" heard of a single instance of engine damage or premature wear of anykind from using a 5W40 weight oil in a motorcycle. Matter of fact the 5W40 Rotella is the most popular choice for many of us that own thumpers, talk about an engine that works hard and gets abused. Do whatever makes you happy and gives you sweet dreams at night, paranoia will destroy ya.
^^^ that for a gravedig :D
And when we drag raced the Zx14's we purposely used zero weight oil and from cold start to redline. That is no secret and never been a prob.
And my track bikes all ran 5W, and my C14 has been running 5W since 58,000 miles ago (but KiPass protects it so not good input to the topic heh)
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And of course, no one has ever heard of a race engine taking damage or blowing up.
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And of course, no one has ever heard of a race engine taking damage or blowing up.
But we haven't heard of a motor "blowing up" due to 5W or 0W oil, or have you? I'd be interested in the motorcycle that did. Race or street.
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OIL THREADS!!!!! AAAAAHHHHH!!! :deadhorse: :rotflmao: :popcorn: :shoot: :cannon:
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And of course, no one has ever heard of a race engine taking damage or blowing up.
Doubt it rarely if ever has much to do with what oil is being used if and when they do. ;)
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But we haven't heard of a motor "blowing up" due to 5W or 0W oil, or have you? I'd be interested in the motorcycle that did. Race or street.
Most racing oils I see are 10W30.......but oh it is much too thin and will shear down to a 20 weight in no time. ::) "sarcasm"
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My one experiment with Mobil-1 5w40 in a motorcycle seemed to make it run like a bat out of hell, but got noticeably hotter, and shift feel got harsh real quick. :o No problem, I was trading it in anyway. ;)
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Just a thought as I am not qualified in any way to comment on oil performance (maybe some here are, I don't know).
When we start out with a cold motor, shifting into first always feels like a jackhammer! Right? My guess is that clutch plates are sticking together somewhat more than a hot motor oil would do. Also we are usually still in high idle mode which makes it worse no doubt.
I think that oil manufacturers formulate their oil intended for automotive use to cling or retain a film to all surfaces to lessen wear effects caused by initial start-up (where most wear occurs). Good so far (at least for dry clutches).
But this same clinging effect will also tend to bridge clutch plates somewhat like a torque converter especially when temps are low and viscosity higher.
It seems logical to guess that the higher the oil viscosity at any given time, the more drag on disengaged clutch plates = notchier shifting.
This can be seen when shifting very quickly as opposed to lazy shifts (quick shifts occur more smoothly because the dogs are still in alignment because the drag from oil/clutch plates has not rotated the primary or drive shaft out of alignment.
So....to summarize this hypothesis, the clingability of auto oils is good for everything BUT wet clutches. Possibly why low viscosity multi-grades MIGHT be a better alternative for engines that use their crankcase oil to also lube their clutch (and tranny to a lesser extent).
A way around all this? Preload the shift lever and shift quickly.
Fretka .
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I usually pull in the clutch when starting the engine, for safety and also to break the clutch plates loose, making that first shift into gear less of a lurch.