Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: roadie on October 22, 2011, 09:27:37 AM

Title: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 22, 2011, 09:27:37 AM
So, I'm finally going to break down and buy some new pants. Today I wear Joe Rocket Pro Street leather pants zipped to a sonic 2 jacket (yellow vest always).

I've worn textile pants before, but after I dropped my bike 3 years ago at ten miles an hour they ripped. They were joe rocket alter ego pants. Since then I went to leather and never looked back.

I'm looking to replace my pro street pants because I just never felt they fit right in the knees. The pads are a little high. And after daily wear for the last three year, they could use a break.   

I like aerostich transit but not the price. And really like motoport's Kevlar gear (supposedly stronger than leather).  I just priced pants with all the options at $700. I just don't feel like dropping that kind of cash.

What do you guys think?  I'm sure I'll only consider 1000 denier cordura, leather, or Kevlar.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Joncon11 on October 22, 2011, 09:35:54 AM
I have these...
http://www.vansonleathers.com/prod-Odyssey_Water_Resistant_Pants___Mens-553.aspx? (http://www.vansonleathers.com/prod-Odyssey_Water_Resistant_Pants___Mens-553.aspx?)
Super comfy and utilitarian, my only complaint with them is the lack of leg zippers. I run these pants and a Vanson leather jacket in the summer, and an Aerostitch Roadcrafter one piece for the wet chilly stuff. All a bit spendy but you get what you pay for and the Roadcrafter will be the only one you buy (horrific crash aside).
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 22, 2011, 09:42:31 AM
Joncon, thanks for tip on vanson. I'll check it out. I had a roadcrafter but just couldn't warm up to it. Very well made though. Think my biggest problem with it is it didn't fit my routine. Sounds silly but I must have a little autism, but need my routine of coming to the office, taking off my leather jacket, do an hour of work before rest of office arrives, then go down to gym and shower. Just couldn't do it with roadcrafter, or any one piece for that matter. generally in winter I just double up on thermo but wear my leather.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 22, 2011, 09:44:41 AM
Joncon, is the entire pant 1000 denier or just the high impact areas?
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Joncon11 on October 22, 2011, 09:52:43 AM
Joncon, is the entire pant 1000 denier or just the high impact areas?

The entier pant is 1000 denier, thats why I bought them. I stay away from anything with "poly" in the name like the plague. I hit a deer over a year ago and I'm still pulling charred splinters of my Joe Rocket pants out of my knee.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ZG on October 22, 2011, 10:25:13 AM
I like the Alpinestars A-10 myself, they're a leather and textile mix.  :thumbs:
 
http://www.alpinestars.com/shop/categories/moto/pants/leather/a-10-leather-textile-pants/ (http://www.alpinestars.com/shop/categories/moto/pants/leather/a-10-leather-textile-pants/)
 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 22, 2011, 01:19:25 PM
Anyone try these?  Stone Lake Leatherworks makes a leather overall with kneepads.

http://www.stonelakeleatherworks.com/ (http://www.stonelakeleatherworks.com/)

http://www.stonelakeleatherworks.com/styles.htm (http://www.stonelakeleatherworks.com/styles.htm)
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: darrell on October 22, 2011, 05:38:27 PM
I rode with a pair of Tourmaster something or others for a few years.  They were nice, but I had the same knee protection placement problem, along with the fact that they were about four inches too short.

I tried on many a pair of overpants and every one had that same problem.  They were a perfect fit off the bike, but with my knees bent they would be too short and the armor would rise above my knee.

Last year I just so happend to be riding through Duluth MN (so sue me if it was a bit off the GPS's charted course) and stopped by Aerostich's little shop of wonders. There I tried on a pair of Darien pants.  Same problem.  Too short when I got on the bike, and the armor placed wrong. 

But the sales lady quickly informed me that this was indeed no problem at all.  Out came the tape measure, and after a few pulls of the tape while I was seated on my bike, she assured me they could have a pair of overpants that fit perfectly.

I continued home with my Tour somethings, and a few weeks later a package from Minnesota arrived.

I haven't been happier with a pice of riding gear.  Perfect fit, perfect armor placement, and very comfortable to boot.  Yeah they're pricey, but they were made to my exact specs.  In the U S of A.

I highly recommend the Aerostich gear to anyone who asks.

But that's just my opinion and it's worth as much as you paid for it.

-darrell
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: bbhzx12 on October 22, 2011, 08:25:37 PM
Vanson unfortunately lacks the customer service that once made them known in the MC industry.  Though right down the road from me I don't even consider them for gear anymore.
My $.02 on jacket/pants is buy waterproof shell. 
Nothing beats staying dry on a rainy day.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 23, 2011, 02:47:02 AM

Didn't even consider Darien, will check them out also. If I go textile, it'll def be a 100% 1000 denier.

I rode with a pair of Tourmaster something or others for a few years.  They were nice, but I had the same knee protection placement problem, along with the fact that they were about four inches too short.

I tried on many a pair of overpants and every one had that same problem.  They were a perfect fit off the bike, but with my knees bent they would be too short and the armor would rise above my knee.

Last year I just so happend to be riding through Duluth MN (so sue me if it was a bit off the GPS's charted course) and stopped by Aerostich's little shop of wonders. There I tried on a pair of Darien pants.  Same problem.  Too short when I got on the bike, and the armor placed wrong. 

But the sales lady quickly informed me that this was indeed no problem at all.  Out came the tape measure, and after a few pulls of the tape while I was seated on my bike, she assured me they could have a pair of overpants that fit perfectly.

I continued home with my Tour somethings, and a few weeks later a package from Minnesota arrived.

I haven't been happier with a pice of riding gear.  Perfect fit, perfect armor placement, and very comfortable to boot.  Yeah they're pricey, but they were made to my exact specs.  In the U S of A.

I highly recommend the Aerostich gear to anyone who asks.

But that's just my opinion and it's worth as much as you paid for it.

-darrell
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 23, 2011, 03:23:40 AM
I checked out Darien, and although Stich makes great gear, I really want 1000 denier cordura or leather.   So right now On my list are

Vanson odyssey

Motoport street jean http://www.motoport.com/_product_35443/Cordura_Street_Jean_1000_Denier (http://www.motoport.com/_product_35443/Cordura_Street_Jean_1000_Denier)

Motoport ultra II
http://www.motoport.com/_product_35443/Ultra_II_Cordura_Pant (http://www.motoport.com/_product_35443/Ultra_II_Cordura_Pant)

Carhartt #r33 bibs.  http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10051&productId=32174&langId=-1&categoryId=10907&top_category=15056 (http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10051&productId=32174&langId=-1&categoryId=10907&top_category=15056)
Carhartt doesn't make motogear, but their #r33 bibs are 1000 denier and inexpensive.  Any views on Carhartt?  Bohn armour underneath maybe?
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Joncon11 on October 23, 2011, 05:31:20 AM
Vanson unfortunately lacks the customer service that once made them known in the MC industry. 

Unfortunately you are right. I lived in RI for a long time and I remember them jumping through their butts to help you out when you walked into their store. I have only tried to order one thing online with them and it ended up being a lot of phone tag, but product I received was worth it. I do my shopping there once a year when I go up to visit family. To the OP, the best way to deal with Vanson is over the phone, if that is the route you decide to go.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Caffeinated on October 23, 2011, 09:59:30 AM
What about Olympia Moto Sports stuff. http://www.olympiamotosports.com/home.htm (http://www.olympiamotosports.com/home.htm)
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Flathead on October 23, 2011, 10:29:45 AM
What about Olympia Moto Sports stuff. http://www.olympiamotosports.com/home.htm (http://www.olympiamotosports.com/home.htm)

+1 Have the Ranger pants and the AST jacket for winter, no problems to report....
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Jaxter on October 23, 2011, 01:46:19 PM
I have Harley Davidson FXRG pants and I really love them...and no they don't slow me down because they are HD.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: stevewfl on October 23, 2011, 06:16:19 PM
Dainese or REV'IT.  But get yer checkbook out (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 23, 2011, 06:17:12 PM
Dainese or REV'IT.  But get yer checkbook out (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)

Do they have 1000 Denier cordura gear?
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: stevewfl on October 23, 2011, 07:00:54 PM
The $769 REV'IT pants with the $999 jacket I'm familiar with are GOR-TEX with ventilation.

I suspect the very top of the line Dianese sport touring gear is GORTEX too, I can't imagine it being anything less. I'm not familiar with it but its around the same price.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Jeremy Mitchell on October 23, 2011, 07:01:42 PM
I am in the market for some leather since I got my leg rashed up last weekend.  When my wife decides to ride she will also be wearing leather too.  I am looking at Joe Rocket, AGV, and Frank Thomas, Alpinestars stuff seems a little flashy for my taste.  I really want to find a brick and mortar store that I could walk into and try on different pants and jackets.  Since a store like that is rare around my area I guess eBay or another online retailer with a good return policy is about my only alternative.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: stevewfl on October 23, 2011, 07:12:06 PM
I am in the market for some leather since I got my leg rashed up last weekend.  When my wife decides to ride she will also be wearing leather too.  I am looking at Joe Rocket, AGV, and Frank Thomas, Alpinestars stuff seems a little flashy for my taste.  I really want to find a brick and mortar store that I could walk into and try on different pants and jackets.  Since a store like that is rare around my area I guess eBay or another online retailer with a good return policy is about my only alternative.

Custom leathers are the bomb and reasonable. This shop is known all over the southeast. You may have a shop such as this in your area that makes custom suits for racers and sport touring gear. Or you phone in your exact sizes of everything, what you want made, and a CC # and you'll have the finest leathers around  http://www.syedleathers.com/ (http://www.syedleathers.com/)
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: gonzosc1 on October 23, 2011, 07:20:59 PM
I went to cycle gear and got a leather 2 piece Sedici

http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/monza_leather_motorcycle_jacket/web1006295 (http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/monza_leather_motorcycle_jacket/web1006295)

http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/monza_leather_motorcycle_pants/web1006296 (http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/monza_leather_motorcycle_pants/web1006296)

only down side I saw in the jacket was the lack of pockets if you need
them. it only has an inside lapel pocket but the zip out liner has cell phone and wallet pockets. but no pockets on the outside.
no pocket at all on the pants.  5 year warranty on both. bust a zipper take it back and get a new one!
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Ddfee on October 25, 2011, 05:10:15 PM
For my 2 cents... I bought the transit suit from 'stich... Worth the cash, will protect you in a crash , keeps you dry in the rain. Did a 7500 mile trip this summer, suit was great... As stated you do get what you pay for.

Dave
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ridingfar on October 26, 2011, 07:30:38 AM
I like the MotoPort stuff....
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: McJunkie on October 26, 2011, 07:37:55 AM
First Gear TPG
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 26, 2011, 07:45:31 AM
Do you own some?  I'm leaning heavily in this direction.

I like the MotoPort stuff....
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 26, 2011, 07:46:35 AM
The transit suit is awesome, would love too, but just can't afford it.  Do you have some pics of you wearing it?  I've only ever seen the magazine pic.

For my 2 cents... I bought the transit suit from 'stich... Worth the cash, will protect you in a crash , keeps you dry in the rain. Did a 7500 mile trip this summer, suit was great... As stated you do get what you pay for.

Dave
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: shreveportSS on October 26, 2011, 08:23:56 AM
If I was cold blooded I would live somewhere I could wear full leathers atleast 6 months out of the year. Since that is out of the question, I will have to stick with textile or combo suits. I don't see myself spending $1,500.00 + for 2 months out of the year. I do wear the Olympia Stealth one piece now which I like. Is is what I consider minimal protection to my personal standards, so my search continues for decent hot weather gear. I prefer the one piece suits due to the ease of suiting up.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 26, 2011, 08:29:56 AM
i wear leather pretty much year round from below freezing to 105.  For me its all in the venting for summer and layering in Winter.  The leather joe Rocket Sonic 2.0 jacket has zip out panels under the arms that create quite a nice air through-flow.  Not to sure of venting options on Transit....so on second thought, might not work for me.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 26, 2011, 06:51:32 PM
I  have quite a bevy of riding jackets and pants.  My favorites are prolly not the best for protection in case of a crash.  But, let's hope that does not happen.

Have to admit, that after crashing my mountain bike 6 weeks ago ... with a broken right hand, nasty gash on my right pinky finger, several cracked ribs, deep tissue damage from the saddle crashing into my right thigh ... all this still hurts a great deal and my hand is not working well ... and lots of road rash, too.  (sigh ...)

Well, I'm back into my Motoport riding gear.  Kevlar jacket, and pants with lots of excellent armor everywhere.

I think Motoport makes the best stuff.  Pricey, tho.  And, not all that stylish either.  Did I say PRICEY?

I have Aerostich Darien jacket/pants, too.  This stuff will NEVER break in !  I've taken the armor out and tossed it into the dryer for hours with some sneakers to beat it up.  Nada.  It will be stiff as a mother for ever!  I don't like that.  But, I do wear it from time to time. 

My favorite stuff is Joe Rocket leather/synthetic ... I replaced the armor with better stuff ... and like the look (yellow/black), and it works in most weather conditions ... and in winter, I just toss a Gerbings jacket liner in and plug it the pants.  I ride to 25* or so if the roads are clear.  Frogg Toggs in the bags to worry about rain.

Most of the "good stuff" is not comfy, or spiffy.  But, they protect your sorry a$$ pretty well in case of a mishap. 

I guess you wear what you can afford and what you like ... or like the looks.  I rode for 20 years with just a leather jacket, dew rag, and fingerless gloves.  But, I looked kewl as hell, eh. 

Now, I even wear the helmet on the stationary bike in the basement ... just in case I fall off.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 26, 2011, 07:00:51 PM
Bagger, your funny as hell. Great perspective. My wife actually has been riding the hell outta me to get the Kevlar motoport pants or their 1000 denier cordura. Can't believe I am hesitating. Imma finally bite the bullet this week and order. Thanks for all the great comments on this thread.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 26, 2011, 07:20:33 PM
Bagger, your funny as hell. Great perspective. My wife actually has been riding the hell outta me to get the Kevlar motoport pants or their 1000 denier cordura. Can't believe I am hesitating. Imma finally bite the bullet this week and order. Thanks for all the great comments on this thread.

Appreciate your 'slap on the back', m'friend.  But, believe me ... every time I have time on my hands ... I end up spending money.  Crikey !

At least this time it was pretty much marginal spending.  Pair of riding boots I'll be sending back, Baker Wing stuff for the Connie and the Wing (only a bit I'll be sending back), and some ammo ... which I will keep.

I have to tell you, tho ... as much as I like the Motoport stuff now ... I did not initially.  It was stiff (still is a bit), unstylish (a bit), custom made (in China), and expensive.  Can't try it on either.

I have difficulty getting my various gloves over the cuffs (which, IMO, are poorly designed for us that wear gloves).  Having them inside the cuffs is no better and many gloves (I have lots) don't work well either.  But, I manage.

If you are considering Motoport stuff ... call and talk to them for some time.  Make a list of your issues and concerns.  Even those I've mentioned here before you buy.  They will work with you and are eager to help you out.

Please do not think that I dislike Motoport gear .... it is the BEST!  But, with everything there are compromises.  And, compared with Aerostich ... I would choose Motoport.

I should have Kris take a photog of me in my gear.  I look like a cop from the future.  Sorta a larger version of Tom Cruise ... much larger.

Any questions regarding riding gear, give me a holler.  I have 2 closets full.  I may even sell some. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ljcorby on October 27, 2011, 07:08:38 AM
Bagger, is there specific gear from Motoport that you would recommend?  My wife and I are interested in some two piece suits for more long distance riding.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 27, 2011, 07:21:20 AM
Bagger, is there specific gear from Motoport that you would recommend?  My wife and I are interested in some two piece suits for more long distance riding.

I purchased the Motoport gear 2-3 years ago ... along with an Aerostich Darien jacket.  I didn't ride with either set of gear much, because I wasn't used to wearing armored gear and found it stiff, bulky and heavy.  I was wearing just a nylon Wing jacket and jeans.

Since then, I've purchased several leather armored jackets from Joe Rocket and upgraded the armor.  Same with pants.  Some leather, some textile.  Armored.

Soooo ..... recently, when I went back to the Motoport stuff, it felt 'better' than I remembered.
Still not as comfy as the leather stuff, tho.

I'll have to look at my records as to what Motoport gear I have.  Their web site is not all that helpful.  As I recall ... I called them and spent some time talking to them about what I wante, colors, sizes, differences in gear, yada, yada.

The jacket is not 'solid' ... it's kevlar and works well in warmer temps, water/wind liner, too.

I'll look and see if I can post later.  But, I'd call them and chat.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ljcorby on October 27, 2011, 09:24:17 AM
Thanks for the info.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 27, 2011, 09:28:47 AM
I'm on the Aerostich web site this morning .... looking at pants (like I need more?).  I may call them and talk about a couple products that I may be adding to the closet.

I may have to build another closet .... already have 2 closets for dedicated moto gear.  Yikes !
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 27, 2011, 01:49:05 PM
I just ordered an Aerostich Roadcrafter pants with the armor upgrade.

Should be here in a few days, and I'll give a review.

In the mean time, I'll check the Motoport stuff I have as far as which I have.  Web site is a bit confusing, but they are very helpful on the phone.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ljcorby on October 27, 2011, 02:28:26 PM
Again, thank you.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 27, 2011, 06:30:53 PM
OK ... I had dinner and then sifted through all the records I have to find what I had ordered from Motoport (was called Cycleport then) and Aerostich.

I have 2 pairs of Motoport pants ...
        --one is the Police Kevlar Pant which I paid $330 for in 2007
           this is the pants that I wear most often these days
        --the other is the Kevlar Street Jeans which were $300 back in 2007
           these are jean cut with belt loops/armor, but much heavier than jeans

I added a 13" zipper on the jeans (maybe the back to hook up the jacket?), a 30" zipper on the police pants (don't know what these are today) and upgraded to hip pads on the police deals.

The jacket is the Air Mesh Kevlar deal.  Can't find what I paid for it, but certainly less than today.  Like everything.

I have a black Motoport jacket with hi-viz yellow accent.  There is a photo here below the all yellow jacket that is shown.  The all black/yellow accent is quite nice IMO.  Looks good.

Had Kris take a photog and I'll post it later.  Getting her to do this is like pulling the proverbial molar .... Crikey!  I was going to pull on the pants, too.  Maybe tomorrow after I do some things she wants me to do around the hacienda.

Here's the Motoport link to the jacket ... notice the patch on the jacket says Cycleport. 

http://motoport.wsiefusion.net/_product_106903/Air_Mesh_Kevlar_Jacket (http://motoport.wsiefusion.net/_product_106903/Air_Mesh_Kevlar_Jacket)

Look at the BLACK one below the main photo (the yellow is not my cup o'tea).

The Aerostich jacket is a Road Crafter version.  Longer than the Motoport, stiffer, too.  Kris took a photo of front and back of this jacket, too.  I'll try to post them all tomorrow along with my stats for comparison.

Hope this is helpful.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 27, 2011, 07:14:46 PM
sweet...can't wait to see them...I'm begrudgingly dragging myself to ordering the pants....just don't feel like laying down the cash (also known as friends)....  I like my friends...I greet each dollar bill as it migrates to my bank account but they never stay long.

but I guess daily riding justifies wearing some shyte that ain't gonna deliver in the clutch when I go down.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 27, 2011, 07:24:40 PM
sweet...can't wait to see them...I'm begrudgingly dragging myself to ordering the pants....just don't feel like laying down the cash (also known as friends)....  I like my friends...I greet each dollar bill as it migrates to my bank account but they never stay long.

but I guess daily riding justifies wearing some shyte that ain't gonna deliver in the clutch when I go down.

One thing, Will ... the Motoport pants are not water proof and I know you ride daily in sometimes crappy weather.  The Road Crafter stuff from Aerostich is 'water resistant'.  Kevlar (Motoport) will not hold water and will dry fast ... but, you will be wet underneath.  That's why I carry Frogg's Toggs with me if inappropriate weather is forecast.

I've not been in the rain with the Motoport, but I know they are not waterproof. 

Frogg's Toggs stuff is inexpensive, very light weight, breathable, unstylish, and works great.  I'd get some just to have some if I rode in any sort of climate where rain occurs.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 27, 2011, 07:43:22 PM
shyte...i thought they sell a waterproof liner as an option...it don't work?
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 27, 2011, 07:47:13 PM
shyte...i thought they sell a waterproof liner as an option...it don't work?

Will ... just went back to the Motoport site.  Here's the link. 

Yes, they do have a waterproof liner .... I must have one that I tucked away in one of the freakin' closets, man.  But, it seems this will work.

http://motoport.com/_product_35442/Air_Mesh_Kevlar_Street_Jean (http://motoport.com/_product_35442/Air_Mesh_Kevlar_Street_Jean)

Actually ... THESE ARE THE PANTS I HAVE .....  and same/same windproof/water proof deal goes here, too, Will.

http://motoport.com/_product_35442/Air_Mesh_Kevlar_Pant (http://motoport.com/_product_35442/Air_Mesh_Kevlar_Pant)

BTW, some of the photos make the pants look baggy as crap.  Mine fit more like the black pair you see front on and back.  The brown ones ... I don't know WTF those are doing there. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 27, 2011, 08:11:54 PM
think imma go with the 1000 denier cordura Ultra II...same pant just no kevlar and  200 friends cheaper.  Imma get with the liner, hip & sacrum pad, and suspenders (I'm old school like that).  Gotta do all the measurements and thinkin thats a sunday project.  Excited to get this done as my leather pants just don't fit in the knees right.  I'm a 32 inseam and they look like high waters so I always tuck them in my Commando boots.  plus the knee pads just rides too high.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on October 27, 2011, 08:15:11 PM
think imma go with the 1000 denier cordura Ultra II...same pant just no kevlar and  200 friends cheaper.  Imma get with the liner, hip & sacrum pad, and suspenders (I'm old school like that).  Gotta do all the measurements and thinkin thats a sunday project.  Excited to get this done as my leather pants just don't fit in the knees right.  I'm a 32 inseam and they look like high waters so I always tuck them in my Commando boots.  plus the knee pads just rides too high.

After measuring your particulars ... I'd spend some time on the phone as I believe these deals are "custom" ... and may not be refundable.  Altho, they may be modifiable. 

All the same, I'd talk to the folks at Motoport and make sure you have what you want for the price paid, m'friend.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 27, 2011, 08:19:33 PM
rog...thx bagger.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on October 30, 2011, 07:14:11 PM
Took all my measurements and ordered the two piece Ultra II pant and Ultra II jacket...lessee how it goes.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on November 02, 2011, 05:42:59 PM
Talked to MotoPort, Kevin says my gear should ship on Monday.  Hope it all fits, as I'm anxious to use and not send back for adjustments.  For that kind of coin, its gonna fit right before I cover my sorry ass with it.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on November 02, 2011, 06:09:30 PM
Talked to MotoPort, Kevin says my gear should ship on Monday.  Hope it all fits, as I'm anxious to use and not send back for adjustments.  For that kind of coin, its gonna fit right before I cover my sorry ass with it.

I get your position here, m'friend.  But, I've measured this and that ... and had 'personal communication' with folks at this and that site ... and still ... STILL .. the stuff that I could not try on was not fitting me when it arrived.  Had to send it back.

I do hope your experience is just perfect.  I do ...

But, I have to tell ya ... I have several Joe Rocket jackets.  All same/same size.  And, each is different from the next.  Arm holes different ... shoulder width different ... sleeve length different ... waist size different.

The point is ... these things are made in different countries.  Different factories in these countries.  Different sizing and designs.  I have this issue with New Balance 'sneakers'.

Sooooooooo .... I hope these hook up for you well, Will.  Keep us posted once they arrive.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on November 04, 2011, 02:55:07 PM
I ordered ... and received a pair of Aerostich Roadcrafter pants (along with the upgraded armor). 

I really like it!  Tried it on and it fits great.  Sat around for an hour or so to get the "feel" of the pants.  I have a Roadcrafter jacket that I bought several years ago and wore little.  Found it too stiff and not warm enough for the temps i was riding.  But, I've found (now) that if you have a liner and a fleece shirt/1st layer it works well. 

And, it's not as stiff as I tho't.  I was not used to this kind of gear coming from the fabric jacket without armor crowd.  I'm going to give the Aerostich gear another try.  I'm going out tomorrow and see how it works.

I do think that Motoport (Cycleport) gear offers more protection IMO ... but, I like choices and the Aerostich stuff is pretty good as well.  Both are very pricey, tho.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on November 04, 2011, 04:25:43 PM
Cool!  I wonder why they don't upgrade to the 1000 denier.

Oh, on the motoport, do u have the quad or tri armour?  I was already way past my budget so I did not upgrade to quad. I did add the sacrum and hip pads. And a 3" hi viz yellow patch across the shoulders, plus zipper in back and Velcro suspenders. Feelin like a kid at Christmas. Now all I need is them damn sidi adventure boots. I gave my sidi onroad boots to my son. Really liked them but love my aero combat tours better. Quick zip and latch so I don't have to bed over to damn long. Old age is a bitch.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on November 04, 2011, 05:50:25 PM
I'm not sure.  Looked a minute ago, and the armor is blue as in the photog on the Motoport site.  I'm not sure they had quad armor in '07.  So, I can't give you a definite answer, Will.

Aerostich wants you to wear street clothes under their stuff.  Not sure if that increases the protection (a bit) or not, but I's suspect a bit more clothing would help abrasions.

The armor in Aerostich and Motoport are different.  Both seem to be temperature sensitive and require some break-in periods, too.

Maybe others with either Aerostich or Motoport can help out here.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on November 15, 2011, 12:19:50 PM
So finally got my MotoPort Ultra II 1000 Denier two piece and definitely loving it.  Couple points to summarize some key items that might interest anyone interested in purchasing:

1.  The material, although 1000 denier cordura, is super soft and NOT stiff.  I absolutley thought it would be heavier and firmer, but I guess NOT being coated with Polyurethane makes a difference.  Wearing full leathers for the last two years, I immediately noticed the weight being lifted off me wearing the Ultra II

2.  The reflective stripes added on the back and pant leg:  According to my son, I "shine" even during the day.  I used to wear a hi-viz vest, but no mas.

3.  The pockets are very ample, with very tough velco closures.

4.  Armour:  all over the damn place...quite amazed at how much your body it actually covers.  Hope I never have to test their ability...

5.  Measurements:  Absolutely take time to do ALL the measurements...twice...send Wayne some pictures of you wearing gear, and maybe even with just a T-shirt on so he can guage your body type.  Once I sent him pics, he had a whole new batch of measurements he wanted.  I'm glad we went through this drill, as without it, your gear ain't gonna fit.  For example, I needed a XXL jacket to fit my shoulders and chest, but he had to seriously drill it down on the sides so I wouldn't be swimming in the jacket.

6.  The pants have a serious elastic band around the back of the waist...will be good, as my weight fluctuates alot give or take 30 pounds (depending on how heavy I hit the brew and Cap'n Morgan and exercise or not :-)

7.  Liners:   Air flows rather nicely through it.  I wore last night riding home with no liners (there are two for the jacket...one for waterproofing and one for warmth...take your pic).  The pant and jacket liner can actually be worn standalone, which I actually find a neat option.  When I actually did wear the liners, I was starting to wonder what the hell I'm going to do with my Gerbing gear.  I fear I might not need it.

8.  Zippers...huge, i mean really robust.

9. Comfort:  Super comfortable.  Oddly enough, I even felt some heat on my legs now that there is no leather between me and the bike :-).

10.  Purchase experience:  Wayne and Motoport are great.  He gave me exactly what I asked for and we exchanged maybe 6 phone conversations through the process.  I'll buy from him again.

If anyone has any specific questions, or want to see some closer shots of this or that, lemme know...

(http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=116)
(http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=117)
(http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=118)
(http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=119)
(http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=120)
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on November 15, 2011, 12:46:00 PM
Excellent post, Will.  I was wondering if you got your stuff from Motoport and had tried it out.

I like my Motoport stuff, too.  Altho, different from yours.  Pretty heavy, too.  About as heavy as my old 30 year old HD leathers.

I've been alternating wearing the Motoport armored stuff with Aerostich's Roadcrafter jacket and pants.  I like both companies gear.  Excellent stuff, different each and altho, pricey .... well made and worth the money.  BTW, Aerostich is made in the USA ... Motoport in China.  But, both are very well made IMO.

I still use my Gerbing's jacket liner when the temp drops to 45 or lower.  My Motoport never felt all that warm .... it's the Kevlar perforated jacket ... even with the wind liner in it.  Plus, I have the Gerbing heated gloves in cold temps as well.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ZG on November 15, 2011, 04:16:12 PM
Great pics and nice gear, thanks for sharing Will!  :chugbeer:
 
Some of the pics look like your doing a sobriety test and the one looks like Tron!  8) ;) 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on November 15, 2011, 06:14:45 PM
Haha. I MAY have already had a few cap'n M's in t
Those pics but I'm takin the fifth (the fifth of cap'n m that is).
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ZG on November 15, 2011, 07:32:25 PM
Haha. I MAY have already had a few cap'n M's in t
Those pics but I'm takin the fifth (the fifth of cap'n m that is).

 :rotflmao: :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on November 15, 2011, 07:35:34 PM
Haha. I MAY have already had a few cap'n M's in t
Those pics but I'm takin the fifth (the fifth of cap'n m that is).

Everytime I do that ... I end up with another vehicle in my garages.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: ZG on November 15, 2011, 08:28:48 PM
Everytime I do that ... I end up with another vehicle in my garages.

Indeed, drinking and ebay is a bad combo...  :-[
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Jeremy Mitchell on November 15, 2011, 09:21:24 PM

Indeed, drinking and ebay is a bad combo...  :-[

Last week I was still feeling the effects of the anesthesia from my surgery and came home and spent around $700 on ebay.  I woke up the next morning and my wife asked me what I bought and I didn't have the foggiest.  Not sure how I could remember my paypal password when I was still high as a kite.   ;D
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on December 07, 2011, 05:14:11 AM
FWIW, another data point to add to motoport gear.  I rode in pouring down pissing rain this morning to work on a bike with no fairing to speak of as far as wind protection....gear worked as advertised.  You see, the inner waterproof shell is actually a two piece suit in itself...which can be (but doesn't have to be) zipped into the outershell (the core gear).  I'm actually wearing the inner shell right now standalone, outershell off and drip drying, putzing around the office, drinking a cup of coffee before I shower and get changed into my suit and tie.  I digress:  I'm dry.  Outshell soaked through and through...but that's ok...inside of inner core, dry.  no leaks...2 hours hard rain (lots of accidents this morning...not me!! YEAH!).
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Caffeinated on December 07, 2011, 05:44:03 AM
I'll have to look into the Motoport stuff when I get some $.  I resorted to the Nelson-Rigg rain suit over my waterproofresistant TourMaster jacket and Joe Rocket pants, just to make sure I was dry.  The rockets are usually fine for short rain bursts while moving, but the crotch leaks in the pouring rain while sitting in traffic.

Took me a good 10 min to get on to 66 from the Balls Ford/234 light (1/2 mile)...all the morons were running into each other this morning!
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on December 07, 2011, 08:14:45 AM
I'll have to look into the Motoport stuff when I get some $.  I resorted to the Nelson-Rigg rain suit over my waterproofresistant TourMaster jacket and Joe Rocket pants, just to make sure I was dry.  The rockets are usually fine for short rain bursts while moving, but the crotch leaks in the pouring rain while sitting in traffic.

Took me a good 10 min to get on to 66 from the Balls Ford/234 light (1/2 mile)...all the morons were running into each other this morning!

yeah was freakin' crazy...I think I counted two accidents.  Glad you stopped by last night, was fun showing someone a ripped open bike that cared.  I just get blank stares at home :-D
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 07, 2011, 08:50:22 AM
Chiming in here a little late, but saw this a few weeks ago and it really shined a light on the protective qualities (or lack thereof) of Cordura.  This video starts out talking about a new jacket, but then goes to show how products are tested to earn an EN Level 2 rating for abrasion resistance.

Clover Tekno Jacket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0RdChrvRZ8#ws)

500D Cordura didn't even last 1 second, so I doubt 1,000D would last more than 3.  I haven't seen any reports on how Kevlar or any other "super" fabrics stand up to this same test (it's elective for manufacturers and costs them money) so I can't comment on that. 

The sad thing is that probably 90% of the textile motorcycle gear on the market is made of 600D or lighter Cordura and in the grand scheme of things really doesn't offer the wearer much protection.  For example, most of the FirstGear products use 400D Cordura (the TPG line being the exception which uses 600D with 1,000D reinforcements) and the video above shows it's not even going to hold up for a full second in a slide. 

This is one of the main reasons the European Union came up with their new system of standards for protective gear sold in that region in the late 1990's, but unfortunately they really don't enforce it and there's very little incentive for the manufacturers to have their gear certified.  "Supposedly" under E.U. law manufacturers aren't allowed to market non-certified gear as having "protective" attributes, but we all know that's not the case.  More details on the EN standards can be found at the following link if you're interested.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-clothing/motorcycle-clothing-safety-standards.htm (http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-clothing/motorcycle-clothing-safety-standards.htm)

The Clover jacket shown in the above video is the first textile jacket to ever receive top EN certification in all areas (abrasion, mechanical impact, sheer strength, etc.) even though these standards have been in place for a decade.


Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on December 07, 2011, 11:00:22 AM
What MrF posted was interesting.  And, after thinking about it for a bit, I suspect that Cordura is not all that 'protective'.

I have a full set of Aerostitch Road Crafter gear.  There are ballistic areas on points that would contact the road surface.  Elbows, knees, shoulders where there are placed armored bits that are covered by perhaps more protective material.  I guess this is where the most contact comes ... the points of contact.  And, that the armor is what is really doing the job of protection, not the Cordura.

Also, and I'm just doing this from memory ... which become dim as time expands ... but, I seem to remember several testimonials where riders went down with Aerostitch gear and came out unscathed.  Even the suit was 'repairable'.  Maybe others know about these testimonials ??
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 07, 2011, 11:51:14 AM
Everything I've heard about Aerostitch has been good other than the damp crotch issues. 

I've been trying to decide on some new gear for a couple months now, but as usual I can't find exactly what I want.  I do a lot of dual-sport riding as well, so getting something that I can wear on both bikes without looking like a tool is a must - meaning it's going to be textile.  I want something that's primarily three season (fall, winter, spring) with a waterproof outer shell but still has plenty of venting to allow for fairly comfortable summer use on all but the hottest days.  I have a Rev`it mesh jacket/pant set for fair summer weather but it doesn't have a thermal or waterproof liner and I really don't want to have to pack two sets of gear on a summer trip to cover my bases.

Been looking at the Rukka Armas and the Rev`it Everest GTX, but both have flaws to them IMO.  On the Rukka I don't like the Gore Lock-Out main zipper on the jacket or the crazy $3000 price tag for the jacket/pant combo, and I'm not sure it would vent well enough for me.  On the Everest I know the venting isn't up to snuff and there's no SuperFabric in the impact areas.  The Rev`it Defender would be perfect if it had the waterproof outer shell like the Everest, but that's not the case.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on December 07, 2011, 12:09:41 PM
Chiming in here a little late, but saw this a few weeks ago and it really shined a light on the protective qualities (or lack thereof) of Cordura.  This video starts out talking about a new jacket, but then goes to show how products are tested to earn an EN Level 2 rating for abrasion resistance.

Clover Tekno Jacket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0RdChrvRZ8#ws)

500D Cordura didn't even last 1 second, so I doubt 1,000D would last more than 3.  I haven't seen any reports on how Kevlar or any other "super" fabrics stand up to this same test (it's elective for manufacturers and costs them money) so I can't comment on that. 

The sad thing is that probably 90% of the textile motorcycle gear on the market is made of 600D or lighter Cordura and in the grand scheme of things really doesn't offer the wearer much protection.  For example, most of the FirstGear products use 400D Cordura (the TPG line being the exception which uses 600D with 1,000D reinforcements) and the video above shows it's not even going to hold up for a full second in a slide. 

This is one of the main reasons the European Union came up with their new system of standards for protective gear sold in that region in the late 1990's, but unfortunately they really don't enforce it and there's very little incentive for the manufacturers to have their gear certified.  "Supposedly" under E.U. law manufacturers aren't allowed to market non-certified gear as having "protective" attributes, but we all know that's not the case.  More details on the EN standards can be found at the following link if you're interested.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-clothing/motorcycle-clothing-safety-standards.htm (http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-clothing/motorcycle-clothing-safety-standards.htm)

The Clover jacket shown in the above video is the first textile jacket to ever receive top EN certification in all areas (abrasion, mechanical impact, sheer strength, etc.) even though these standards have been in place for a decade.


I have yet to find one independent abrasion and tear strength comparison and a source from where the numbers come from.  I;I'm Sure they exist, but have not found them.  For instance, even on MotoPort's homepage they have stats, but no source.  I think it would go a long way to dispell/validate/or open some eyes on the durability of cordura.  I agree, 500 denier ain't goin on my ass...I love my leather, but damn I love that 1000 denier stuff too.

Hey Bagger, yeah i read the testimonials also...I'm hopin' never to have to post one.  Be interesting to start a thread on how gear held up from forum members.  I know every accident will be different and too have too many variables to make it a one-size-fits-all judgement, but would be interesting to read.  "How'd it hold up when you went down?"
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on December 07, 2011, 12:37:36 PM

Hey, Will ... a quick search found this on another motorcyel forum thread.  It may not be exactly what you are looking for, but found it interesting.

Abrasion Comparisons:

Been some questions about what kind of gear to buy. Found this awhile back and thought might be good to post up again.


Tear and Abrasion Strength by the numbers
Pounds of force until fabric tears Abrasion cycles on pavement until fabric fails
CottonJeans 4.5 pounds to tear 50 cycles to failure
70 Denier Standard Nylon 4.5 pounds to tear 165 cycles to failure
500 Denier Polyester 8 pounds to tear 180 cycles to failure
200 Denier Standard Nylon 7.5 pounds to tear 275 cycles to failure
500 Denier Cordura 22 pounds to tear 710 cycles to failure
620 Denier Cordura 35 pounds to tear 1200 cycles to failure
NEW Competition Grade Leather 80-110 pounds to tear 1200-1700 cycles to failure
1000 Denier Cordura 110 pounds to tear 1780 cycles to failure
Air Mesh Kevlar 1260 pounds to tear 970 cycles to failure Stretch Kevlar Blend 420lbs pounds to tear 1800 cycles to failure

This is how quickly some materials take to hole:
Material Seconds
Denim 0.2 to 0.5
Some race gloves 0.6
Most leather gloves 1.0 to 1.8
Keprotec stretch material 0.9
Poor Kevlar 1.0
Two layers of waxed cotton 1.3
1.3mm thick cow hide 3.8
Two layers of 1.3mm thick cowhide 18
Three layers of 1.3mm thick cowhide 55
Two layers of Kevlar plain weave 5.6
Suede 18
Boot leather (generally 2.2mm thick) 20
Leather stretch panels 20.4


There is also this test from a while back:

Drag Test

"For the Drag Test, samples were stitched to a bag that held a 75-pound
sandbag inside a milk crate, then dragged behind a pickup truck..."

New, 100% Cotton Denim Jeans ----------------------- 3' 10"
Senior Balistic Nylon ----------------------------------- 3' 10"
Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz/sq. ft. --- 4' 3"
Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz/sq ft. ------------- 4' 4"
Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans ------------ 4' 5"
Cordura Nylon Type 440 ----------------------------- 18' 3"
Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 ------------------ 22' 1"
Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz/sq. ft. -------- 86' 0"


Taber Test

"For the Taber Test, the specimen was mounted on a rotating platform and
scuffed by two rubber-emery grinding wheels." The numbers represent the
number of revolutions until the fabric totally fails. A vacuum clears
debris.

Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 168
New 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 225
Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 506
Cordura Nylon, Type 440 559
Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz./sq. ft. 564
Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz./sq. ft. 750
Senior Ballistic Nylon 817
Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz./sq. ft. 2600

More to consider...

"Finally, protection from road abrasion cannot be guaranteed by a
materials abrasion resistance alone. A jacket may have panels of
highly abrasion-resistant materials, yet if low-quality stitching joins
those panels and the seams come apart upon impact or during a slide, then
the abrasion resistance of the panels could count for nothing.
Furthermore, an ill-fitting garment may ride up in a slide, contorting
the body and exposing the skin. And the best jacket in the world, left
unzipped and/or unsnapped, won't give riders the protection they pay
for. When it comes to safety, the issues are more complex than just the
abrasion resistance of materials." __________________

From another site:

The textiles vs leathers debate is all about tradeoffs. Choosing which material to use to cover your hide with and spend your pennies on depends on how much you value individual tradeoffs and ultimately, your intended use and riding conditions. Sounds easy enough, but deciding between textiles vs leathers has had great rider minds in a muddle and increasingly so over the last couple of years as the quality and versatility of both materials has improved so much! Just type in “textiles vs leathers ” into google and you will find that 90% of the results are from forums with the answer ultimately resulting in the fact that it depends on your personal preferences. The problem is that this does not help those new to the biking world who have not had the time or experience to develop their own, well-guided preferences… and so the argument goes on.
But, it’s really quite simple if you use the BMI (Best Motorcycle Information) textiles vs leathers test. This test takes the four most differentiating attributes of the two materials into consideration – price, maintenance, comfort and protection. Each attribute is also assigned to either leathers or textiles, depending on which material has the greater advantage in terms of the attribute. After reading the brief summary on each, assign a score out of a hundred to each attribute, giving those attributes that are most important to you higher scores, so that in the end the total score of your four attributes adds to 100. Then add up the score that you gave to the leather attributes and textile attributes, and the material with the highest score is your answer – and best of all it will be unique to your personal preferences.
Price - Textiles
Motorcycle textiles are cheaper to buy than leathers. It is also much harder to judge the quality of leathers and so you take the risk of paying a lot of money for a suit that does not have quality stitching and construction. (Just beware however that it is widely accepted that your textile suit will probably only survive one crash before you have to fork out for a new pair.)
Maintenance - Textiles
This one is simple – motorcycle textiles can be thrown in a commercial washer, while leathers will need to be sent to the cleaners.
Comfort - Textiles
Motorcycle textiles have an all weather capability: vents for when it is warm, liners for when it is cold and water resistance for rain. It breathes more easily than leather, and water slides off it like a ducks back.
Leather is also much heavier than textile.
Protection - Leather
Tests are conducted all the time to compare the abrasion resistance of motorcycle riding gear materials and leather always comes out on top as the most durable material. Furthermore, leather does not melt from friction, it will cushion your fall more than motorcycle textiles would and it offers the best protection against a road rash. The fact that leather also lasts through multiple crashes whilst textiles will probably only last through one, says a lot about the difference in protection and impact between the two materials.
The textiles vs leathers debate basically comes down to protection vs everything else.
__________________
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on December 07, 2011, 12:41:26 PM
hey bagger, yeah read that stuff, but my question is "says who?"  I've seen these numbers high and low, but never a source other than the author.  Almost reminds me of those viral rumors that get spread.  I'm not doubting the numbers, just want to see what lab determined them.

Have said all that, I'm happy in my motoport 1000 denier gear. I know "feel safe" doesn't equate to "safe" but i feel better protected than alot of yahoos i see riding with just a vest  and jeans. :-)
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on December 07, 2011, 12:46:10 PM
I get ya, Will .... I run into this question ... "Says who, where's the research?" in my business all the time.  "4 outa 5 dentists recommend ... yada, yada".  Whatever, eh.

I'll contact a couple of the manufactures of the gear and see if they have any laboratory test regarding durability of their fabrics in slides.

I remember reading the 75 lb sandbag dragging various materials behind a pickup several years ago.  I guess that is about as good a lab report as you can get in the field.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on December 07, 2011, 12:46:50 PM
BTW that clover looks like some really tough doodoo.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 07, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
I agree 100% Roadie! 

I recall reading somewhere that when the new EN standard for abrasion resistance was first implemented there were only two test machines in existence - the original at Cambridge University and a second they made for an unnamed Lab.  That would have been 8-10 years ago though, so I'm sure there are a few more floating around now. 

What I'd really like to see though is for the manufacturers to step up to the plate and provide test result data on all the materials they use in their products.  They have to have it tested to get a CE or EN rating anyway, and since they're in the business of manufacturing and selling protective gear you think they would want to tout their products specific level of protection (assuming it's worth bragging about).  Also, with so many manufacturers using their own special proprietary textile blends this data becomes even more important for separating the wheat from the chaff.   

In the case of Dupont Cordura, Gortex, Armacor, SuperFabric and others which are proprietary and licensed brand names, they [the manufacturer of the fabric] should have the material tested and publish the results so the manufacturers will know ahead of time what level of protection that particular material will provide their customers.

Sadly I don't see that every happening though as there's no way to mandate it in this country and the manufacturers aren't going to volunteer to spend a small fortune on lab tests when it's not mandated. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on December 07, 2011, 12:50:28 PM
damn!  looks like it costs about 1000 bucks too.  whaddaya think bagger?  you seem to be our resident gear whore?  gonna get one?  :-D  too rich for my blood. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 07, 2011, 01:00:14 PM
I get ya, Will .... I run into this question ... "Says who, where's the research?" in my business all the time.  "4 outa 5 dentists recommend ... yada, yada".  Whatever, eh.

I'll contact a couple of the manufactures of the gear and see if they have any laboratory test regarding durability of their fabrics in slides.

I remember reading the 75 lb sandbag dragging various materials behind a pickup several years ago.  I guess that is about as good a lab report as you can get in the field.

If you do contact some, specifically ask if they have Cambridge Abrasion test results.  That's the new test method used for CE/EN approval.  The old Martindale test method is shown in the video below and really doesn't test the fabric at the speed or pressure these fabrics see in a motorcycle environment.  The new Cambridge test uses a fixed force (anvil weight) and a specific grit belt sander and yields more real-world results.

http://youtu.be/nyZGpqM2xBU (http://youtu.be/nyZGpqM2xBU)

Also, here's a video showing the CE burst test on a pair of Dragon Jeans.

http://youtu.be/FTfjfHvKPmE (http://youtu.be/FTfjfHvKPmE)

To test for burst strength, a small sample of the product is securely mounted to the top of a metal cylinder. Below the sample is a flexible membrane behind which water is pumped. The membrane distends, placing increasing pressure on the test specimen until, eventually, it fails. The water pressure at the point of failure is recorded.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 07, 2011, 01:08:25 PM
damn!  looks like it costs about 1000 bucks too.  whaddaya think bagger?  you seem to be our resident gear whore?  gonna get one?  :-D  too rich for my blood.

Yeah, and they don't have a single dealer in the U.S.   They don't list website links for their European dealers either, but it seems 700 euro's is the going price.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on December 07, 2011, 04:29:32 PM
Well, Will and MrF .... 700 Euros is a lot presently.  But, with what is going on in the Euro Zone, I expect  the Clover to come down substantially. Maybe to $85 USDs, eh.

I did look at their web site, tho.  I'd have to order from Mexico which seems the closest dealer.  But, I'd be afraid that the Clover would be cloned in China and sold to me as an original copy.  BTDT2/3

I'd have to try the gear on before forking over some USDs ... even $85.

I've wondered about how to test the gear and how it holds up to a crash.  And, I think it would be difficult.  Yeah, you can drag the stuff with a 160 elb sack of sand behind a pickup and measure when sand came out.  But, this is just information that works only if one is sliding for several seconds in one position.  And, not be very relevant to 'real life' incidents.  I would think that some tumbling would occur as one offed the bike.  And, that this part of the gear would be in contact with the Tarmac for a bit and then another part and so on.

My concerns are more with the type and placement of the armor in the gear.  Kinda like a block tumbling down the driveway.  Just the sharp corners contact the Tarmac mostly.  The flat sides are rarely in contact with the driveway until momentum peters out.  JMO.

Hey, I'm certainly no materials engineer.  (don't think I'm a gear whore either, Will ... tho, I do have lots of 'stuff').  But, wearing some sort of protective gear ... jacket/pants/boots/helmet/gloves/codpiece ... should bode well for one if you get tossed off the bike.  The armor seems more important to me.





Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 07, 2011, 07:07:14 PM
Found this earlier today which (thus far) is the best explanation of what they're testing for to achieve CE certification.

http://www.satrappeguide.com/motorcycle_ppe.php (http://www.satrappeguide.com/motorcycle_ppe.php)

One interesting thing to note is that they mention the EN 1621 standard is currently in the process of being changed to include additional tests to assess performance in high and low temperature environments plus after storage in humid conditions.  No doubt this has a lot to do with how the performance of d3o and other molecular armor changes across the temperature spectrum.

As for how to test the crash worthiness of any article of clothing, I think our best bet would be to get Myth Busters on board.  haha
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on December 07, 2011, 07:29:29 PM
I'm always concerned when governments mandate that various companies give them products to test awarding winners and losers based on some group of bureaucrat's ideas of what is needed for the common good without any clues to real life situations.

Over regulation.

Instead of relying on some government to conduct tests ... the motorcycle industry could do so.  They at least know what is going on with motorcycle riders and how they ride.  What they wear and why they wear it.

And, perhaps independent testing agencies could develop tests and conduct same as well.  Consumer's Reports and Motorcycle Consumer News come to mind.  There should be more that do not take money from the companies that they are testing ... just from subscribers.  The cream rises to the top, so to speak.

There's a niche' here.

When the state/feds get involved ... it just costs the tax payers a bundle and the results take forever with little base ground.  And, the results are not without PC.

Just my li'l opinions.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Maille Man on December 07, 2011, 08:17:23 PM
Results of a real world test of a pair of Field Sheer 600D pants.  I don't know how fast I was going at the point of get off, but I was HARD on the brakes from 65MPH.  With only both wrists and ankles sprained and a throbbing knee, I have to believe I bled off at least half my speed before dumping.  From what I remember, I did more bouncing and rolling than I did sliding.

Right knee
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii78/cdharlach/Mail/2010-09-14_15-42-18_380.jpg)

Right hip
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii78/cdharlach/Mail/2010-09-14_15-42-32_347.jpg)

Seat
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii78/cdharlach/Mail/2010-09-14_15-43-30_358.jpg)
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: roadie on December 08, 2011, 12:51:49 AM

Hey, I'm certainly no materials engineer.  (don't think I'm a gear whore either, Will ... tho, I do have lots of 'stuff').  But, wearing some sort of protective gear ... jacket/pants/boots/helmet/gloves/codpiece ... should bode well for one if you get tossed off the bike.  The armor seems more important to me


Meant it in jest Bagger.  Mea culpa ma friend.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on December 08, 2011, 04:33:29 AM
Meant it in jest Bagger.  Mea culpa ma friend.

I took it in jest, too, m'friend.  All's always good here.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Caffeinated on December 08, 2011, 05:13:07 AM
My concerns are more with the type and placement of the armor in the gear.  Kinda like a block tumbling down the driveway.  Just the sharp corners contact the Tarmac mostly.  The flat sides are rarely in contact with the driveway until momentum peters out.  JMO.

+1 on that statement Bagger. Properly fitting gear with properly placed armor, along with a higher strength material at the place of the armor and padding, along with quality stitching are most important to me.  <$500 also helps.

The TourMaster and Joe Rocket stuff I have now doesn't meet any of the criteria other than price, so I'm on the hunt for something new.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on December 08, 2011, 06:57:11 AM
My favorite riding jacket before I went back to the Motoport/Aerostitch gear is a Joe Rocket deal.  It is no longer made and the newer models don't 'feel' as good as this yellow/orange leather with black textile areas.

I could ride in various temperature ranges as it had a removable quilted liner and shoulder/back zippered vents.  I would ride down into the 20s with a Gerbings heated vest or jacket liner/gloves.  And, up to the 90s (altho warm) with no liner and vents open.

I upgraded the shoulder/elbow armor to CE rated stuff.  It had the proverbial turtle-like removable back armor, that I removed since it felt odd with my Utopia backrests.

I really like this leather/textile jacket.  It has no model designation # on it and I ordered a similar jacket, but it was much heavier and fits differently.

But, I think that the placement and quality of the new CE rated (I think that's the upgraded marque) makes a great deal of difference.  This jacket fulfilled many of my needs.  Fits great, looks great, color awareness to cagers, works in various temperatures, comfortable, good armor placement.

I have a set of leather JR perforated pants that I've worn, too.  Work to around 38*s with a thin poly long john under it.  Good armor placement here as well that was upgraded by me. 

So, there is a variety of gear available that should provide most of your needs.  Visibility, comfort, fit, protection, yada, yada.  Price does make a difference as we have talked about.  But, wearing the best you can afford and upgrading the armor I think works well for most of us.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 08, 2011, 09:24:32 AM
+1 on that statement Bagger. Properly fitting gear with properly placed armor, along with a higher strength material at the place of the armor and padding, along with quality stitching are most important to me.  <$500 also helps.

The TourMaster and Joe Rocket stuff I have now doesn't meet any of the criteria other than price, so I'm on the hunt for something new.

This is where the EN 13595 standards come into play as they will tell you exactly how each different type of material compares in those regards.

EN 13595 - This covers jackets, trousers plus one and two piece suits and includes a wide variety of tests intended to assess the protection and integrity of the clothing ensemble . It has been formatted into four parts.

Part 1 - Establishes the basic construction requirements and the examination procedures for the clothing.

Part 2 - Impact Abrasion: The test involves the sample being dropped through a distance of 50 mm onto a 60 grit abrasive belt moving at a speed of 8 m/s (approximately 18 mph). The test ends when the sample is holed - defined by a trip wire, placed underneath the test specimen, being broken. The abrasive power of the belt is assessed using two layers of a standard reference fabric and the specimen's abrasion time is corrected.

Part 3 - Seam Burst Strength: A circular sample cut from the clothing is placed over a diaphragm and is clamped around its edge. The specimen is gradually extended into a dome shape thereby applying forces to the seam in all directions. The pressure required to burst the sample is recorded.

Part 4 - Impact cut: A test specimen taken from the clothing is mounted over a block containing a rectangular hole. A striker of fixed mass with a sharp blade fitted to its lower surface is dropped with a defined energy level so that the blade impacts the sample directly above the rectangular hole. The maximum penetration of the blade through the material is measured.

For a jacket or pant product to earn any level of CE rating it must pass all four parts of the testing.  I.e. if it passed the first three at Level 2 but failed to meed Level 1 requirements on the fourth part it would not earn any CE rating.  Additionally, if a product passes the first three at Level 2 and the forth at Level 1, it will only receive a Level 1 rating.  Remember though, this is only for the shell construction and materials and has nothing to do with the included armor as it's tested and rated separately under EN 1621.

Here's an interesting excerpt from the write-up webbikeworld did on the Clover jacket pertaining to how leather and textiles compare in the EN lab tests.

Quote
Leather vs. Textile?
I asked Clover if there was any difference in the protective abilities of their Level 2 leather clothing vs. textile and received a rather surprising answer

They said that the 1.2 - 1.3 mm leather (tanned in Italy, high-quality leather) lasted on the impact abrasion test for about 3.5 seconds. This means it is not possible to have a Level 1 product with the use of a single layer of 1.2 - 1.3 mm leather, which is the standard leather thickness used on a typical leather jacket or suit.

To reach Level 2, the leather must have two layers, one for the external shell of 1.2 - 1.3 mm high-quality Italian leather, which will withstand the first 3.5 seconds, then a second inner layer, made with a particular fabric similar to Kevlar, but stronger for the other 3.5 seconds to reach the Level 2 target (minimum of 7 seconds abrasion resistance). All Level 2 garments must pass the minimum 7 seconds abrasion test.

Is Level 2 textile better than Level 2 leather? Clover said they have a better result for their textile on the abrasion test. Note that this is Clover's special textile, not just "any old" textile from other brands.

For the impact cut resistance test they get better results with leather. Textile has better tear strength, and both leather and textile have similar values when it comes to the stitching burst test. The best test they had was the main stitching on their leather jacket and suit, which was able to resist up to 1,144 kPa pressure (more than 11 ATM). The Level 2 standard calls for a minimum of 800 kPa pressure, so their leather tested 40% higher than the Level 2 standards.

Not sure what all the actual value requirements are for all the tests (some are given in the above quote) or how directly they actually correlate to what the gear will see in the real world, but at least they establish a set standard so we have a way of knowing it's definitely going to offer at least a predetermined level of protection.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: MrFurious on December 20, 2011, 09:20:41 AM
Well, just spend a small fortune on some new riding gear.  After hee-hawing back and forth for several weeks between a couple different options I finally settled on the Rev`it Defender GTX jacket and pant.  Definitely not cheap at $800 for the jacket and $660 for the pant, but the quality is top notch.  The hardest part of the decision for me was whether to go with a removable WP liner or a WP outer shell.  Knowing how stuffy my Gore-Tex hunting gear gets when it's humid I opted to go with the removable liner so it would be more comfortable in warmer weather.

Looking forward to giving it a proper Ohio winter road test after the holidays if Mother Nature will hold off on the snow and ice until then.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/MrFurious45833/2009%20Kawasaki%20Concours%2014/Defender_GTX.jpg)

One Note:   Be mindful of Rev'it's size chart and if you're on the bubble between two sizes always go with the larger as they do run a hair small being a European cut.  I have a 44" chest and 40" gut (34" jeans) and the 2XL jacket (44-46" chest) fits perfect.  The standard length XL pants also fit me like a glove, though they're a little baggier in the seat than I like with the liners removed.  The waist isn't a problem with the liners removed as there's plenty of adjustment built-in.  Knee armor lines up just as it should as well, but keep an eye on the inseam length in the size chart (short, standard and long options are available) as it varies by size.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on January 06, 2012, 05:01:26 PM
Since the weather was pretty nice for the 6th of January in CT-land, I decided to hook up and ride .... Kris came out with a camera and I tho't I'd share my Aerostich Road Crafter gear with you.

I'm about 6' 2" and 215# without gear ... I'm wearing a base layer and Gerbing's electric jacket and pants liners/gloves.  No liners in the Aeorstich jacket and pants. 

BTW, since the temps were in the mid 40s ... I did not need the electric gear.  But, like carring a fire arm ... better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Jeremy Mitchell on January 06, 2012, 05:04:22 PM
You running a reverse snow plow on your GoldWing?   ;D


I would love to have an AeroStich.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on January 06, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
Hey, Jeremy .... well, we had a pre-Halloween snow storm here in CT-land that dumped over a foot of heavy wet snow on us.  We lost power for over a week here at the hacienda (fortunately, I'd installed a generator couple years ago).  Hence, the snow plow sitting at the end of the driveway.  No snow since.  I love Global Climate Change !

The Aerostich stuff was purchase a few years ago.  I was not wearing much for 'protection' back then.  But, have revisited armored gear since I crashed my mountain bike in September.  Another story that. 

But, I wear the Aerostich stuff and the Cycleport gear in the colder weather.  I'll see how they work in the warmer months.  But, both are terrific ... albeit pricey.  So are hospital visits ... I know.

I think that wearing some sort of gear like this takes a bit of time to get accustomed to if you are not used to it.  I ride into the 20s with heated gear.  Just have to adjust riding habits.
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Jeremy Mitchell on January 06, 2012, 05:22:15 PM
I am just a cheapskate, so I bought a 2 piece Joe Rocket leather suit after my first get off.  I got a killer deal on everything on ebay ($150 for a $700 set) I had been running all textile gear but I always wear my leather jacket now. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
Post by: Bagger on January 06, 2012, 05:29:57 PM
I am just a cheapskate, so I bought a 2 piece Joe Rocket leather suit after my first get off.  I got a killer deal on everything on ebay ($150 for a $700 set) I had been running all textile gear but I always wear my leather jacket now.

I have several Joe Rocket leather jackets and pants.  I like them a great deal.  Plus, they are less expensive than Cycleport (Motoport/Aerostich) ... and, I think JR is more comfy.  Not sure that JR is 'better', but I wear JR a lot of the time.