Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: roadie on October 17, 2011, 07:25:56 PM
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So I generally rock Arai lids, but have been drooling over Nolan Modular helmets. Any info from the community on safety comparisons? I mean I know they are both DOT approved, but something about the modular helmets makes me think they are less structurally sound than non-modular full face helmets. Am I just being paranoid?
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I really like my 102, biggest drawbacks are weight and noise. Never had a concern in regards to safety.
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IIRC, last time I checked, no modular helmets passed the Snell standards. Personally, I don't stress much if the helmet passes DOT, but I understand there may be some limitations to the DOT standard (actually as to the testing more than the standard). I'm unsure whether any modulars have passed the European standards.
IMHO, better a modular that is worn than a full-face on the shelf. As I understand it, they are/can be less structurally sound, but whether that difference is significant to you remains your decision. As for me, I have no plans to buy one.
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So I generally rock Arai lids, but have been drooling over Nolan Modular helmets. Any info from the community on safety comparisons? I mean I know they are both DOT approved, but something about the modular helmets makes me think they are less structurally sound than non-modular full face helmets. Am I just being paranoid?
ANYTHING is DOT approved. I wouldn't even count that as a measure of safety. Modular helmets are generally not considered as safe as standard helmets because the chin is not integrated and could come apart or open during impact. As far as I am aware, for example, they cannot be given SNELL or certain other certifications.
They are also usually much heavier due to the extra matter and hardware needed to make the opening mechanism work. And they are also noisier than standard helmets due to all the extra cracks, seals, and non-smoothness. For the same reason, they might also not be as watertight. I am not quite sure I understand people's interest in them.
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I thought about one then changed my mind about it.
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Quick answer as to why, for me at least, and as to why SNELL wont certify them. I bought one for the summer commutes, the 5MPH times, gate entries, and training sessions, it's much easier to communicate when the lid is open. SNELL wont endorse them for the very reason folks can ride with them open. To the best of my knowledge both Shoei and Nolan modulars pass the physical tests, just not the operator test. I tend to be a gear/helmet whore, I use the money from training to buy what catches my fancy and what passes my common sense test. It also allows me to make recomendations to my students based on what I have used, not read about. Tax deductions dont hurt either ;)
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I really like my 102, biggest drawbacks are weight and noise. Never had a concern in regards to safety.
I really hated my 102 for the extra weight and noise......bought new Shoei Qwest and I'm happy again!
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Look at www.webbikeworld.com (http://www.webbikeworld.com). They have tons of tests,comparisons and reviews on just about every helment made. :o
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About 5 Years ago Motorcylist magazine did an extensive research article on helmets. It was a no holds barred article. They employed an indepent lab to conduct the research, some very interesting & suprizing results. Anyone interested should be able to do a Google search for it.
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When BMW first came out with their modular about 20 years ago I bought one and really like it. But when it came time to get a new one I just could not get over the fact that is was not a Snell bucket -- I mean if you are going to go to the trouble of wearing one, make it the safest you can buy. Snell is an independent, non-governmental organization that seriously test helmets. It was started by parents whose son died while wearing a helmet because the helmet did not do anything near what it should have.
At this point, the only thing I miss about a modular is the ease of putting on and taking off glasses.
Something else I have noticed is that many non-Snell buckets use chin-strap buckles -- more convenient than the double D rings on all Snell units, but they must have some chance of coming unbuckled in a crash.
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Not to hijack the thread...and, I will provide my opinion regarding modular helmets in a moment...but, it seems to be more of a "Snell vs non-Snell" thing...so...NO MODULAR HELMET MEETS THE SNELL FRONTAL IMPACT TEST! There...now that that's been said...it bears saying, also, that the Snell Foundation is going to have to re-evaluate their criteria...not just every five years, as they do now to determine the new Snell rating standards, but relative to the future of their very existence.
Many factors are coming to bear on the Snell approval process...it used to be that every racing organization in this country required a Snell approved helmet to be a competitor...as many of you know, several sanctioning bodies in the US are now allowing ECE certified helmets to be used in competition...
This results in a larger selection of approved helmets...and, almost all of the ECE helmets are priced lower than Snell approved models...so, over the course of time, fewer Snell approved helmets will be purchased.
Add to this the production costs of Snell approved helmets...remember, now, they do not have to be used in competition (which has been one of the major selling features of a Snell approved helmet)...and the manufacturers of ECE approved helmets can make one production run of 25,000 helmets for the entire world...while Snell approved manufacturers will be forced to contemplate how many helmets to make for the dwindling demand for their product in one country...
Production runs to "fill in" sizes and colors they might run out of used to be 250-500 helmets at the minimum...in the coming years "fill in" runs will be closer to 1,000 helmets...that's twice as many helmets being constructed at a higher cost per helmet...raw materials, facilities use, transportation, and labor costs will demand it.
I know...Arai...and Shoei...say they will continue to make Snell approved helmets...in fact, that is ALL that Arai makes! But, look ahead and see what you think the market (demand) will be for their products in five years...
And, for any helmet manufacturer introducing new, higher-end helmets...which certification do you think they will pursue?
This is why I believe the Snell Memorial Foundation needs to re-evaluate who they are and what they do...their staunch stand on exclusivity is, seemingly, backing them into a corner with no way out...
As to the question of modular helmets...I do like the convenience of being able to flip the front up and walk into the gas station when the pump tells me to "See Cashier for Receipt"...I do like being able to keep the helmet on (and my ears warm) when I stop for a drink...some people like the convenience of being able to smoke with their helmet on...
Are they less rigid than a non-modular helmet, Snell or otherwise? Yes, I think they are...my thought is they have to be, since the shell is multiple pieces.
The down-side is weight and noise...
Are they unsafe? No, I don't think so...I have never heard of any injuries being attributed to a modular helmet...
Sorry if I wandered...moderators...feel free to nuke this post if needed.
End of rant.
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Personally, I found it pretty messy to drink a beer with a full face helmet.
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Silly boy, you should use a Camelbak. Much easier that way.
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Beer goes flat.
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Silly boy, you should use a Camelbak. Much easier that way.
+1...I do...but, sometimes it is difficult to get the olive through the hose... ;D
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I think there was some data around about a higher incidence of skull damage around the eye sockets when using modular helmets. I think it was because of less padding in that area due to the modular's helmet needing hinges in that area. ???
I wear a modular and like it overall but it is incredibly noisy; the noise may be because it is modular or because of the specific helmet type (HJC) but it quite high whatever the reason.
Brian
<snip>
The down-side is weight and noise...
Are they unsafe? No, I don't think so...I have never heard of any injuries being attributed to a modular helmet...
Sorry if I wandered...moderators...feel free to nuke this post if needed.
End of rant.
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I always wore full face untill a couple of months ago. After much reading and info gathering I bought a Nolan N90. On the Sharps helmet testing site, all the Nolan modulars chinbar stayed locked 100% of the time. Some other more expensive helmets did not. Web bike world also gave it a good review. I know testing and reviews are not real world, just a piece of my decision puzzle. I'm not comfortable in an open face, I kinda like my nose and teeth ;D, but wanted more versatility than a full face. Life is a compromise. So I did my research and decided on the Nolan.
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I wear a modular and like it overall but it is incredibly noisy; the noise may be because it is modular or because of the specific helmet type (HJC) but it quite high whatever the reason.
Brian
Even with ear plugs in? still noisy? Both my full face Arai's are noisy as hell without plugs as well. I tried on some HJC modulars a couple weeks ago. Wish I could take on the road to test.
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Even with ear plugs in? still noisy? Both my full face Arai's are noisy as hell without plugs as well. I tried on some HJC modulars a couple weeks ago. Wish I could take on the road to test.
I've had several full face and modular helmets over the past few years. Strangely I keep coming back to the AGV modular Miglia, which is not a really great helmet overall, but comfortable and quieter than other full faces I've used with this bike. I have a Scorpion full face I got a few months back because everyone talked about how quiet it was, but it was MUCH louder on this bike than the Miglia, which isn't a very quiet helmet. I think the aerodynamics of the C14 cockpit cause alot more noise, since the Scorpion on the Ducati 900ss I have actually is pretty quiet.
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About 5 Years ago Motorcylist magazine did an extensive research article on helmets. It was a no holds barred article. They employed an indepent lab to conduct the research, some very interesting & suprizing results. Anyone interested should be able to do a Google search for it.
If I am thinking of the same test article it, was very controversial in that it concluded that DOT helmets protected BETTER than Snell helmets against the type of head injury causing impacts that motorcyclists were more likely to suffer. Something to do with blunt vs pointed impacts.
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If I am thinking of the same test article it, was very controversial in that it concluded that DOT helmets protected BETTER than Snell helmets against the type of head injury causing impacts that motorcyclists were more likely to suffer. Something to do with blunt vs pointed impacts.
Also something about the injurys to older brains. The Snell was too rigid.
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Beer goes flat.
Your drinking to slowly.
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+1
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I am just starting to look at new modular helmets. I had one years ago, the BMW one and remember it being okay. My interest is because of neck problems. I have chronic neck pain which physical therapy has helped but when I put on my full face helmet it gives my neck a twinge of pain as I pull in on. So modular helmets seems like a two edged sword from what has been stated here in that it would make getting in and out easier but then they are heavier. My full face fits very snug which is what I understand to be a good thing.
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Yes, even wearing ear plugs my modular helmet is noisy. A tremendous amount of wind roar starting at about 45 MPH and it just gets worse with more speed. The helmet is an HJC Sy Max II by the way. The helmet fits me very well and overall I like it but it is terribly noisy unless the windshield and visor are all the way up.
Brian
Even with ear plugs in? still noisy? Both my full face Arai's are noisy as hell without plugs as well. I tried on some HJC modulars a couple weeks ago. Wish I could take on the road to test.
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Heavier, less strength in a crash....I may have one anyway ;D
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Wife got a modular and she really likes it. Got a tinted visor that comes down. Like everyone said, it is not probably as strong as a full face one. But it is a whole lot better than no helmet, half helmets. And I know that you cannot count on it, but I am not trying to get into that big of a accident that will shear the chin bar off.
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i bought a cheaply priced HJC CL-max to try it out and yes, it is noiser ... but they are so convienent.
I prefer my modular over a regular full face.
i did start wearing ear plugs this year and won't rider without them now.
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Earlier this year on a COG ride around Lake Berryessa here in California, a wife of a COGGER took a turn too hot and ended up hitting an embankment on her 650 ninja. She impacted mostly dirt, but her chin bar from her modular must have hit a rock. Her helmet was still on, but her chin bar was totally disconnected from her helmet. Her face was severly messed up from the impact her face made after the modular failed. I don't know about you, but I don't care to take a drink with my helmet on if the helmet can't even withstand an impact when I crash. I just ask is it really that important to wear a modular? She was air lifted to the ER and ended up being ok. I don't know if she's riding again.
Here is the story.
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,26469.msg103366.html#msg103366 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,26469.msg103366.html#msg103366)
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Here is a great article from WebBikeWorld on the ECE standard http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/ece-22-05.htm (http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/ece-22-05.htm)
Couple of items to note from the article:
"There have been several studies of motorcycle crashes over the last 25 years that have attempted to evaluate any protective advantage or disadvantage of helmets meeting one standard or another (Hurt, 1981; tte, 1991). No advantage has ever been shown in these field studies for any particular standard, so the helmet industry and individual riders are left comparing theoretical pros and cons of the various standards."
"Helmets certified to the ECE 22.05 standard are approved for competition events by AMA, CCS, FIM, Formula-USA and WERA and are chosen by nearly every professional motorcycle racers competing in world championship road racing, motocross and off road events, including the ultimate sport of Moto GP."
There are modular helmets that meet bot ECE & DOT standards, such as the Schuberth C3 ( and many others).
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Even with ear plugs in? still noisy? Both my full face Arai's are noisy as hell without plugs as well. I tried on some HJC modulars a couple weeks ago. Wish I could take on the road to test.
Will,
Find a dealer that sells the Schuberth C3 modular. I have about 10K miles on my
C3 and itś the lightest, quietest modular I've ever owned. This is my 3rd Schuberth and itś the best yet. In clean airflow, I don't even need earplugs.
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Will,
Find a dealer that sells the Schuberth C3 modular. I have about 10K miles on my
C3 and itś the lightest, quietest modular I've ever owned. This is my 3rd Schuberth and itś the best yet. In clean airflow, I don't even need earplugs.
A great example of you get what you pay for.
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Will,
Find a dealer that sells the Schuberth C3 modular. I have about 10K miles on my
C3 and itś the lightest, quietest modular I've ever owned. This is my 3rd Schuberth and itś the best yet. In clean airflow, I don't even need earplugs.
Think I'm going to punk out and stick with non-modular...have heard good shyte about Schuberth.
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Will,
Find a dealer that sells the Schuberth C3 modular. I have about 10K miles on my
C3 and itś the lightest, quietest modular I've ever owned. This is my 3rd Schuberth and itś the best yet. In clean airflow, I don't even need earplugs.
I've been looking at a C3. Man I want one, but too damn cheap. Maybe I will treat myself one for Christmas.
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I've been looking at a C3. Man I want one, but too damn cheap. Maybe I will treat myself one for Christmas.
Like Mick, I love mine BUT do try one on... they only fit certain heads ;-)
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For anyone considering the purchase of a modular helmet, be sure to perform a roll-off test with the chinbar in the open position. The helmet chinbar can unlatch in a accident and it is possible for some helmets to roll off some head shapes even while tightly strapped on. The HJC helmets seem to have a problem in this area.
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For anyone considering the purchase of a modular helmet, be sure to perform a roll-off test with the chinbar in the open position. The helmet chinbar can unlatch in a accident and it is possible for some helmets to roll off some head shapes even while tightly strapped on. The HJC helmets seem to have a problem in this area.
And how are you suppose to perform that test....., just wondering..... :o ???
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We'll need video as well.
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By performing a roll-off test (when you grab the rear lip of the helmet and try to roll it forward off your head), you're really only checking for a proper fit of your new helmet.....to reproduce real life situations you need a lab, and IMO that's what we have DOT and Snell standard testing for.....
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We use Fulmer M1 modulars. Comfortable helmet but LOUD!
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I used to exclusively wear Snell approved helmets but I went modular a few years ago. Yes I know that it IS possible that in a specific situation the chinbar can come open and cause injury. However it is also possible to land in such a way with ANY helmet that you snap your neck, etc etc... riding a motorcycle carries Risk, we have all accepted that risk. For me the increased risk of a Modular is acceptable. I had a Scorpion Transformer and liked it, but went with a Shoei since it was rated higher IIRC (and it's lighter)
As to the standards, actually the DOT standard is not as bad as you think it is, it's no ECE standard that is true, but it's not worthless IMHO (The "Brain Buckets" don't count, I really believe that the only test they pass is that the sticker the makers and riders buy can adhere to them, heck I remember being up at Marcus Dairy and watching a helmet Vendor peel and stick DOT stickers on these tiny brain buckets) as for Snell, it is good to have an independent reviewer, but I've read a lot of reviews that claim that snell helmets are TOO rigid, that in an accident yes they hold up better, but they transmit MORE force to your head instead of yielding and absorbing the impact. I just don't trust Snell anymore...
Just my 0.02
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http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/ (http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/)
Don't know how many are familiar with this site. Lots of good info on many different helmets. Testing seems very thorough, but it is only testing!
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I just received my Nolan N43 Trilogy - it's not a modular - more like a 3/4 face with a removable chinbar.
Likes
HUGE viewport. The chinbar is relatively small, so the view port is giant, like a 3/4 face helmet.
Optics on the shield are good.
Flipdown suncreen - it's about right and doesn't cut through my vision
Quiet - much quieter than the HJC it replaced (which was pretty noisy on my zx14). Not much low noise booming, but I can still hear normal sounds like ecxhaust from the bike, emergency vehicles. I wear in-ear headphones when I ride and this helmet is markedly quieter.
Good venting.
Seals well although I have yet to be caught in the rain.
Pinlock capable.
Convertible into a standard 3/4 face setup.
Dislikes
Shield only has two positions - full open and full close. I have no idea why Nolan wouldn't have at least a crack position
Fogs up easily - your breath is now going onto the shield because of the size of the chinbar.
It's shorter than my HJC, so covers less of my jaw and chin
Uses a different strap than the standard D-Ring - kind of a plastic strap thing that I don't like because it presses into my throat a bit.
I'm still breaking it in and it is tight around where my jaw hinges. That should improve with time (I hope).
It feels like a quality helmet and I do like it but the D-ring thing is probably my biggest complaint because it compromises the comfort of the helmet.
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http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/ (http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/)
Don't know how many are familiar with this site. Lots of good info on many different helmets. Testing seems very thorough, but it is only testing!
That's a good site. The link was lost when the old forum went poof. Thanks. :goodpost:
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I just received my Nolan N43 Trilogy - it's not a modular - more like a 3/4 face with a removable chinbar.
That is really freaky. I am not sure I quite understand the market for it.
One thing I know for sure, now that I have a helmet with a drop-down sunscreen visor, I will NEVER own another helmet without it.
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One thing I know for sure, now that I have a helmet with a drop-down sunscreen visor, I will NEVER own another helmet without it.
+1 on the drop-down visor! I have a smoked face shield that I use in the daytime, combining that with the drop-down visor is great when the sun is in mine eyes.
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anybody serious about protecting their head with a helmet would not even consider a fake fullface helmet. Forget all the bullshit you read on the internet and use your own common sense.
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anybody serious about protecting their head with a helmet would not even consider a fake fullface helmet. Forget all the bullshit you read on the internet and use your own common sense.
Please tell us what you really think. ;)
I like the concept of the modular from a convenience standpoint, but they can't possibly be as safe (IMHO).
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That is really freaky. I am not sure I quite understand the market for it.
One thing I know for sure, now that I have a helmet with a drop-down sunscreen visor, I will NEVER own another helmet without it.
These look to be a great idea and might eliminate the need to carry two visors when on a trip (even though changing them out on my RF1100 is quick and easy). I'm not sure how well they'll work with glasses. Can anyone comment?
Does having a hollow space in the crown of the helmet (where the retracted visor resides), and the accompanying mechanisms, have any adverse effect on the helmets ability to protect you in a crash?
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I have the Scorpion EXo-1000 with the sunglass visor built in. I can't tell you about glasses. Some helmets accommodate more than others, though. You'll have to try one on and see. I don't see how the built in visors would affect negatively in a crash. I keep my primary visor cracked open a bit when riding as the bugs/rocks still have a tendency to find me behind my CB Euro.
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These look to be a great idea and might eliminate...
This is worthy of another thread, so I created one. Please direct all responses regarding drop-down visors to: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4940 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4940)
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I have the Shoei modular, I wear sunglasses under it all the time with no issues. As for the safety thing...it's my understanding that early concept modulars had the tendendency to flip up in a crash, not so now. The DOT stamp doesn't carry much weight with some people, but any DOT rated helmet Iv'e crashed in did its job well (I am typing this ;)). I have never been a bargain hunter in regard to helmets, you do get what you pay for, and after all...it is your head. So yes, modern, respected brand modulars are nice and I would buy another.
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anybody serious about protecting their head with a helmet would not even consider a fake fullface helmet. Forget all the bullshit you read on the internet and use your own common sense.
And Arai and Shoei are the safest helmets, right?
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I've worn modular helmets for years. Had a meet-n-greet with a right rear quarter panel of a Ford Exploder when they decided to cut across my right away... helmet worked fine.
Had a friend who had a horrible get off on his ST1300... totaled his bike when he went off road into a tree, his Nolan N102 worked fine. He bought another to replace it.
I like my modular helmets... I dont see giving them up.
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And Arai and Shoei are the safest helmets, right?
I'm sure there is better out there, but those brands have served me very well in all of my encounters with the track/road/deer. I'll happily pay the price for something that has proven itself as being of quality and safe over and over...
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These look to be a great idea and might eliminate the need to carry two visors when on a trip (even though changing them out on my RF1100 is quick and easy). I'm not sure how well they'll work with glasses. Can anyone comment?
Does having a hollow space in the crown of the helmet (where the retracted visor resides), and the accompanying mechanisms, have any adverse effect on the helmets ability to protect you in a crash?
I wear glasses/contacts. My HJC SyMax 2 works fine with glasses, no clearance issues what so ever. Wearing glasses is actually the reason I went with this helmet. I couldn't get other non-modular helmets on while I had my glasses on, nor could I get my glasses on while wearing other helmets.
I can't answer the other question about protection. I've been lucky enough not to test the helmet's crash worthiness...
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The established brands that are SNELL, DOT, or ECE certified have been proven to be safe. The other brands that sort of pop-up as cheap specials all over the place, then disappear after a year or two are usually only DOT certified, and I trust them far less. The DOT specs themselves are fine, but it is basically up to the manufacturer to vouch that their helmets meet the DOT spec. That's one of the advantages SNELL has in that they do 3rd party verification, does the ECE spec.
Arai and Shoei don't necessarily mean more safety, but it certainly does mean a very high quality helmet that the manufacturer will stand behind.
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The established brands that are SNELL, DOT, or ECE certified have been proven to be safe. The other brands that sort of pop-up as cheap specials all over the place, then disappear after a year or two are usually only DOT certified, and I trust them far less. The DOT specs themselves are fine, but it is basically up to the manufacturer to vouch that their helmets meet the DOT spec. That's one of the advantages SNELL has in that they do 3rd party verification, does the ECE spec.
Arai and Shoei don't necessarily mean more safety, but it certainly does mean a very high quality helmet that the manufacturer will stand behind.
+1, and comfort, at least for me.
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Just my 2 cents....I have a Nolan N90 I wear on the Goldwing. I have headsets in it....music, intercom, nav information, little wind noise...it's great. I wore it while riding the C14 and the wind noise was BAD. My Bell Vortex finally arrived and the difference was night and day.....much less wind noise on the C14. The Nolan works well behind the windshield of the 'Wing, but sucks out in the airflow of the C14 when the shield is lowered.
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The established brands that are SNELL, DOT, or ECE certified have been proven to be safe. The other brands that sort of pop-up as cheap specials all over the place, then disappear after a year or two are usually only DOT certified, and I trust them far less. The DOT specs themselves are fine, but it is basically up to the manufacturer to vouch that their helmets meet the DOT spec. That's one of the advantages SNELL has in that they do 3rd party verification, does the ECE spec.
Arai and Shoei don't necessarily mean more safety, but it certainly does mean a very high quality helmet that the manufacturer will stand behind.
From webbikeworld (http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/ece-22-05.htm (http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/ece-22-05.htm)) "An advantage of the ECE 22.05 standard is the requirement for mandatory batch testing of helmets before they are released to the riding public. What this means to the consumer is the quality of the helmet in meeting the ECE 22.05 standard is assured by a mandatory sample testing of every production of helmets before they leave the factory, not with random testing performed after thousands of helmets with unknown quality are delivered to the dealers."
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I dropped the 'as' from that statement: It should have read 'as does the ECE'.
Amazing what removal of one word does, right?
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I have been a modular fan since my first one several years ago. I have around 10 helmets on the shelf, and currently the Scorpion EXO-900 is my favorite. I've been through 2 HJC Symax helmets, and would pick the Scorpion over them hands down. The Nolan and Schubert were too expensive for what you got (IMHO), and the Shark didn't fit me well at all.
The drop down sun visor is way cool, but if you get one with that feature, get the darkest one available. I find I really only use it when riding into the sun, and it's just too weak for that if it's not really dark.
Now, if you are going to spend some money on a helmet, why not get one painted up like one of these?
http://visualfunhouse.com/transportation/painted-motorcycle-helmets.html (http://visualfunhouse.com/transportation/painted-motorcycle-helmets.html)
You would be the envy (or cause of accidents) everywhere you go! ;D
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cool link
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Guess I'm too late. Link not working tonight - Says bandwidth exceeded.
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Guess I'm too late. Link not working tonight - Says bandwidth exceeded.
Hmm, just clicked on it and it worked. A little slow to start, but still loaded. Give it another try...