Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Beamer on September 11, 2011, 05:00:41 AM
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My 09 (ABS) is new, and I spent the whole day yesterday riding to break it in. The rear brake is soft on the bike. I mean, if I jab it hard enough, it will lock the rear tire, but it seems to take a serious amount of input to get it to respond.
I wasn't too worried about it till when I got home last night and I saw a serious amount of brake pad debris on the rear wheel. I wouldn't call it dust, it is heavier than that, like you sprinkled the rear wheel with black pepper.
Should I be concerned? I plan on taking the rear caliper off as I am suspect that one pistons are hung up.
My bike is one of those that sat and sat for 3 years, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is because it sat so long, but I wondered if anyone else might of had the same thing happen?
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My 09 (ABS) is new, and I spent the whole day yesterday riding to break it in. The rear brake is soft on the bike. I mean, if I jab it hard enough, it will lock the rear tire, but it seems to take a serious amount of input to get it to respond.
I wasn't too worried about it till when I got home last night and I saw a serious amount of brake pad debris on the rear wheel. I wouldn't call it dust, it is heavier than that, like you sprinkled the rear wheel with black pepper.
Should I be concerned? I plan on taking the rear caliper off as I am suspect that one pistons are hung up.
My bike is one of those that sat and sat for 3 years, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is because it sat so long, but I wondered if anyone else might of had the same thing happen?
You were able to get the rear tire to lock up? Or do you mean that you were able to activate the ABS?
I don't know what to say about all the brake dust but if the rear feels soft perhaps a brake fluid flush is in order? It's easy enough to do and if the bike has been sitting for 3 years with the same fluid in it it's time anyways.
A lot of guys have complained about the 'wooden' or 'soft' feel of the rear brake. I don't agree. While it's not the best rear brake I've ever felt, it's far from the worst either.
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If I remember correctly, your bike is non-ABS, right?
Regardless, I would check the pads and caliber because of how long it sat, but what you're reporting sounds about right. The rear brake on this bike is very wooden and feels ineffective. Its there if you tromp on it, but don't expect a lot of feedback.
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If I remember correctly, your bike is non-ABS, right?
Read his first few words Bob.
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Beamer, the description of how your rear brake works sounds like mine. Almost no feel, then lock-up or abs activation. I've bled mine completely and it still does not work very well. Actually it works, but is about as progressive as a hammer handle through the rim . I tried some Galfer organic rear pads. They work much better, but you'll see more brake dust than you do now.
If you look at the brake linkage to the master cylinder, you'll see how much slop the system has. The first bit of pedal travel does nothing except remove this slop.
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The bike is new so if the dealer isn't to far away I would take it back to them, especially for all the brake dust or power on the rear wheel. If it is ABS the wheel shouldn't lock up. if not ABS than it will lock up. My 09 has 8500 miles on it and I bought it in November 10 so it sat or a while also but I have no problem with the rear brake pedal or dust.
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The bike does have ABS, and yes I did get it to lock, but I had to jab it very hard to do so.
If this is typical performance, than it will be what it will be. Just disappointing vs how well everything else on the bike works.
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Rear brake dust is normal, but my rear brake seems to work great. I would give galfer or EBC a try, sure cant hurt.
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The bike does have ABS, and yes I did get it to lock, but I had to jab it very hard to do so.
If this is typical performance, than it will be what it will be. Just disappointing vs how well everything else on the bike works.
Interesting that you could 'lock it up'. I've panic stopped the bike and had the rear ABS kick in and it never 'locked' per se as you would think a non-ABS bike would. Also, having a lot of brake dust doesn't seem to be normal to me. You wouldn't have a picture of that would you?
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I have an 09 abs also that was purchased in December 2010. My rear brake is also soft and really don't seem to do much as far as stoping power ( I think it may be by design). I use both brakes for normal stoping but mostly the front for serious slow downs. The brake dust is normal, I have to clean my rear wheel about every 400 - 500 miles. I don't know about locking up the rear tire, I have never tried to do that but don't sound normal for an abs. My bike has 3400 miles on it now and I never even think about the braking performance, it just feels better each time I ride.
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+1 for EBC pads and bleeding the system. It helped a lot.
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lots of brake dust is normal, if you got the rear to lock up then you need to have it looked at. got mine in Nov, the rear brake is somewhat soft. but I have noticed since then that it works great when its heated up.
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If you have a lot of cake of the tire, you may have had a stone applying some pressure throughout your ride. My friend (08 with the brake gaurd recall completed) caught a small stone in their and shelled his rear brakes. His case was relatively extreme and required pretty aggressive cleaning of the rotor and rebuilding of the caliper. It works fine now but his like mine, feels kinda wooden, as descibed above.
You can also bleed it from both bleed valves which may improve the feel a little.
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My '09 abs took a couple thousand miles of normal use to feel right on the rear brake. I focused on using the rear and front together, in as balanced a fashion as possible for road conditions. Sounds like they all just took awhile to break-in.
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Well to get it to lock I actually had to jab it with my heel, and it locked (per the distinct tone of rubber vs. asphalt emanating from the rear of the bike ) but I was only on the brake for about a half a second.
I do realize that brake dust is normal, but what it coming off is the size of table salt, not particularly "dust" per say.
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The rear brake system is tiny compared to the front. We're asking those two tiny little pads to absorb the energy of a 700lb bike plus rider and gear. I think it does well considering what is asked of it.
The chunky brake dust is normal.
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The rear brake system is tiny compared to the front. We're asking those two tiny little pads to absorb the energy of a 700lb bike plus rider and gear. I think it does well considering what is asked of it.
The chunky brake dust is normal.
I agree with you statement fully. However, I've driven bikes with similar mass and a rear brake system completely capable of stopping the bike with half the effort on the right foot. A couple of beemers come to mind, or the VFR. Ducati's, on the other hand... :battle:
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Well to get it to lock I actually had to jab it with my heel, and it locked (per the distinct tone of rubber vs. asphalt emanating from the rear of the bike ) but I was only on the brake for about a half a second.
I do realize that brake dust is normal, but what it coming off is the size of table salt, not particularly "dust" per say.
Seems strange that you can get the back tire to lock up on a ABS bike, in a straight line at least. The day I brought my bike home I took her out and bedded in the brakes and then purposefully caused the ABS to activate first on the rear then on the front. I wanted to make sure it worked plus to get a feel for the pulsing sensation. I couldn't get either tire to lock. It sure slows down in a HUGE hurry when you activate both at once.
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Again, it doesn't sound right that the ABS is causing the rear brake to lock up. I've done it and it didn't slide. I take it the ABS light is not on. Also, it does have the ABS logo on the front fender doesn't it?
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I believe I addressed this particular problem with two replies I wrote earlier. I also have an '09 but think your description of the symptoms and mine are only differentiated by semantics. These are the two replies:
(Quoting maxtog, "Well, I know there are some good uses for it, but I was actually trained to NOT use the rear brake, for safety." Whoever trained you didn't know much and contributed to the "blind leading the blind" axiom. I started riding motorcycles when I was 14 and am still riding at 70. For all of those 56 years it has been both on the street and in the dirt. When I started there were no dirt bikes, you created a dirt bike by modifying a street bike. My first was a '55 BSA Gold Star. I still ride my far more modern thumper in the mountains and one of my street bikes whenever I have someplace to go. I have racked up beau-coup miles and each and every one of them included use of both brakes. I find it amazing that so many of you think that use of the rear brake is a superfluous effort. The mention of using the rear for better control at parking lot speeds is a perfect example of useful rear only use. There are numerous situations where a proper modulation of both brakes makes for a far more pleasant and much safer riding experience. My C14 is an '09 model with ABS. The first time I rode it I realized that the rear brake was just about useless at parking lot speed as it had no feel at the lever. I solved that problem by removing the return spring that attaches to the pedal itself. This spring is not necessary as the return spring in the master cylinder is plenty strong enough to return the pedal to its normal position. With the external spring removed the lever pressure could be discerned with the foot and I then knew how much brake I was applying. I strongly suggest that this unnecessary and potentially dangerous spring be removed so the rider can tell how much pressure he is applying with the foot. Try it, if you disagree you can always put the damn thing back on the bike.)
(Sorry Martin, you're just going to have to get off your lazy ass and go out and look for it. I just got up off mine to go out to my shop to verify my memory of the spring's exact location. In order to take a picture of the spring I would need to put it back on my bike. That is not going to happen because the brake pedal must be removed to remove or replace the spring. It's behind the brake pedal. There are two springs, one is very small and operates the brake light switch and the one in question is much larger and is a brake pedal return spring. Because of it, you have to apply so much pressure with your foot that you cannot tell when the brake is actually being applied to the caliper and rotor. Because of this I damn near tipped the bike over in a parking lot at less than walking speed because I could not properly modulate the pressure being applied to the brake due to the lack of feel. This happened when the bike was less than an hour in my possession and that damn spring was removed within an hour of my arriving home. It's easy to see and not at all difficult to remove or replace. I am living proof that any ass can do it.)
As for the "black pepper" you see. Brake dust does not look at all like black pepper to me. I would ignore that for the moment and get rid of that above described spring and its inducement of problems that magically disappear with its removal. Clean the rear wheel, ride it for awhile with a normal and useful rear brake and then check out the appearance of brake dust. The fact that the bike sat unused for three years should not have had any influence on the behavior of the brake. The two calipers and master cylinder for the front wheel also sat idle for the same length of time but working as they should ought to be some indication that lack of use is not a contributing factor.
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^^^What Bud said, and I'll add. This bike's rear break has an unusually long travel before you get bite. My brother's M109R grabbed earlier and with less pressure. I think it's designed that way for safety in the non ABS bikes; but now that they've discontinued that, they should work on a more progressive and direct activation of the rear's especially now that the system is linked.
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It is 100% for sure ABS.
I posted just out of concern that there was a caliper alignment issue, hung piston, etc.... I'm sorry to start any controversy.
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It's an internet forum..there's always controversy going on ;) .
My advice, it's new, take it to the dealer to sort out. Do not remove any parts or pieces. Engineered rightly or wrongly, that spring referenced above is supposed to be there. There could be something wrong with the ABS or something else. It's a safety issue and the dealer should take care of it.
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It is 100% for sure ABS.
I posted just out of concern that there was a caliper alignment issue, hung piston, etc.... I'm sorry to start any controversy.
That's par for the course here. We run with any thread posted.
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That's par for the course here. We run with any thread posted.
That's right! It's either that or do some work around this place. :yikes:
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That's right! It's either that or do some work around this place. :yikes:
Kpass locked the rear wheel, I know it!!! :o :o
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This sounds stupid, but it works.
An old road racer gave me this tip many years ago... Reagan Shaw of Tampa, FL. RIP my brother.
Take a zip-tie and tighten it around the front brake lever. Leave it over night.
Take a weight and hang it from the rear brake pedal over night.
I use an ammo can with 1000 rounds.
All of your sponginess and soft brakes will be gone in the morning.
This will stiffen up the brake pull.
Try it, just once. You will be hooked.
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It's an internet forum..there's always controversy going on ;) .
My advice, it's new, take it to the dealer to sort out. Do not remove any parts or pieces. Engineered rightly or wrongly, that spring referenced above is supposed to be there. There could be something wrong with the ABS or something else. It's a safety issue and the dealer should take care of it.
Sorry to say Jim, but rightly or wrongly is determined by what works and what does not work. The spring is supposed to be there because some dummy in the engineering department thought it would be a good idea. Had he ridden the bike both with and without the spring he would have realized that it is detrimental and downright dangerous. I'm speaking specifically of the '09 model with ABS as this is the only one I have owned and ridden. I cannot refer to the later models with linked brakes as I have not ridden one or even looked at one to see if the offending spring is there. Anyone owning and '08 or '09 who questions my advice can ignore it and post no comments as to its veracity or they can spend the ten minutes or so that it takes to remove the spring, ride it and make an empirical determination. After putting my advice to the test, whether you agree or disagree, you are then fully qualified to post a comment. As for your blind trust in the wisdom of engineers who design our various modes of transportation. I have done all of the maintenance, modifications, fabrication of improvements, etc. on all of my vehicles, two wheels or four and the vehicles of others for the past 55 years. In that time I have been amazed many times over that some of the engineering feats displayed in the end product are excellent while coexisting on the same vehicle with something that was designed by an idiot, yet there it is right next to the work of a genius.
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This sounds stupid, but it works.
An old road racer gave me this tip many years ago... Reagan Shaw of Tampa, FL. RIP my brother.
Take a zip-tie and tighten it around the front brake lever. Leave it over night.
Take a weight and hang it from the rear brake pedal over night.
I use an ammo can with 1000 rounds.
All of your sponginess and soft brakes will be gone in the morning.
This will stiffen up the brake pull.
Try it, just once. You will be hooked.
Not stupid at all. The increased pressure forces the residual air bubbles in the line up through the master cylinder and finishes the bleeding process. Thanks for sharing.
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Sorry to say Jim, but rightly or wrongly is determined by what works and what does not work. The spring is supposed to be there because some dummy in the engineering department thought it would be a good idea. Had he ridden the bike both with and without the spring he would have realized that it is detrimental and downright dangerous. I'm speaking specifically of the '09 model with ABS as this is the only one I have owned and ridden. I cannot refer to the later models with linked brakes as I have not ridden one or even looked at one to see if the offending spring is there. Anyone owning and '08 or '09 who questions my advice can ignore it and post no comments as to its veracity or they can spend the ten minutes or so that it takes to remove the spring, ride it and make an empirical determination. After putting my advice to the test, whether you agree or disagree, you are then fully qualified to post a comment. As for your blind trust in the wisdom of engineers who design our various modes of transportation. I have done all of the maintenance, modifications, fabrication of improvements, etc. on all of my vehicles, two wheels or four and the vehicles of others for the past 55 years. In that time I have been amazed many times over that some of the engineering feats displayed in the end product are excellent while coexisting on the same vehicle with something that was designed by an idiot, yet there it is right next to the work of a genius.
While I agree with some of your statements, the OP has a 'new' bike. I put that in quotes because it's an 09 that's been sitting on the dealership floor for quite some time. We all know what happens to bikes that sit for a long time. This could be a safety issue or it's working as designed. We don't know because we aren't the ones riding it. What we perceive as 'normal' may not be perceived as normal to the OP. Again, we don't know cause we're sitting behind a PC making armchair suggestions. He has a warranty. He should use it to check this out. If he should want to try the spring removal to 'improve' his brakes then more power to him and good luck all around. He can always put it back.
I'm extremely lucky with my bike as I've ridden with that spring connected since early August of 07 without serious injury, perceived decreased braking performance, or causing me to nearly tip over in low speed maneuvers. I'm keeping mine on.
We thank you sincerely for bringing that to our attention again and do hope you bring more insight and new ideas to our forum. We really appreciate new forum members adding to our knowledge base.
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Well said Jim, you're a gentleman.
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My 09 (ABS) is new, and I spent the whole day yesterday riding to break it in. The rear brake is soft on the bike. I mean, if I jab it hard enough, it will lock the rear tire, but it seems to take a serious amount of input to get it to respond.
I wasn't too worried about it till when I got home last night and I saw a serious amount of brake pad debris on the rear wheel. I wouldn't call it dust, it is heavier than that, like you sprinkled the rear wheel with black pepper.
Should I be concerned? I plan on taking the rear caliper off as I am suspect that one pistons are hung up.
My bike is one of those that sat and sat for 3 years, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is because it sat so long, but I wondered if anyone else might of had the same thing happen?
You need to bleed your rear brakes! Make sure to bleed it from both bleed valves! Problem solved!
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Well 600 miles on it now, and last night I did the first oil change, rode it around the block to verify the oil level. Did so without my helmet on, and could definitely hear the rear pads dragging on the rotor with no pedal pressure. I am going to assume that one of the pistons are hung, thus letting one of the pads rest on the rotor.
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Just because you hear noise doesn't make it sticking. Check the rear rotor to see how hot it is after taking a short trip and using only the front brakes. Assuming it is sticking you need to get it to the dealer as soon as possible. Another cause could be the rear master cylinder. We've seen issues with that not allowing the pistons to retract. You've got several potential scenarios here. Problem with the caliper, problem with the master cylinder, and potentially gravel preventing the full return of the brake pedal. All of these could cause the rear brake to be locking up. We've seen where gravel can still get in and prevent the full return of the rear brake pedal even with the recall shield attached.