Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: katata1100 on September 01, 2011, 08:29:20 AM
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What mileage point is it fully broken in? I am thinking the point where the
bike makes peak power/mpg.
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Initially there is some beneficial wear and work hardening of certain hard metal parts. After that, wear is detrimental. Exactly where that point occurs is hard to pinpoint, and it is the subject of a lot of debate. Opinions range from the first couple hours of engine operation to several thousands of miles.
I am of the school that says you want to allow the engine to have a small amount of normal wear for a few thousand miles to achieve full oil control and maximum power, and I also believe wear is minimized (nearly eliminated) with synthetic oil, which is why I like to run mineral oil for the first couple of changes before switching to synthetic. I normally use 10,000 miles as a switchover point.
You will get a lot of different opinions.
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I would say once you start the engine.... ;D
Seriously tho, while there is some final breaking in that happens in the first few hundred miles, it's not like cars of yesteryear. Today's engines are built to much closer tolerances and are pre-run at the factory so I question how much actual breaking in there really is.
I don't follow any specific break in schedule except for not redlining the engine for the first few hundred miles.....
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The first time it reaches normal operating temperature for peak power.
The gears and cam lobes / tappets need to 'get acquainted' a bit but there is little change even in those parts these days. Otherwise the engine was fully broken in during the manufacturing processes used on the various parts; put another way, the cylinders, pistons and rings were all 'broken in' when their various contact points were honed or superfinished.
Brian
What mileage point is it fully broken in? I am thinking the point where the
bike makes peak power/mpg.
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After you drop it for the first time.............
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At the end of your first track day!
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On the way home from the dealer!!!!
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5,000 miles. 8)
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The first time it reaches normal operating temperature for peak power.
The gears and cam lobes / tappets need to 'get acquainted' a bit but there is little change even in those parts these days. Otherwise the engine was fully broken in during the manufacturing processes used on the various parts; put another way, the cylinders, pistons and rings were all 'broken in' when their various contact points were honed or superfinished.
Brian
I disagree with that. The day I bought my C14, I put a little over 500 miles on it. I noticed that when I refueled at around 300 miles, it sounded a lot less clacketity=clackity- maybe had less valve train noise.
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I's say about 1k miles...
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Well there you go- you knew the answer all along.
OK, this time I'll start: which side you do think I should part my hair on?
;D ;D
I think I will stick by my thoughts regarding tribology (the study of friction, lubrication and wear) as it applies to I.C. engines even in the face of your compelling 'clacketity=clackity' approach.
;D ;D ;D
Brian
I disagree with that. The day I bought my C14, I put a little over 500 miles on it. I noticed that when I refueled at around 300 miles, it sounded a lot less clacketity=clackity- maybe had less valve train noise.
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Well there you go- you knew the answer all along.
Brian
Well, I know some major break in occurred at that point, but I don't know what percentage was done. I think it said in the manual to let the bike idle for 30 secs after starting before the 500 mile mark.
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snip...
Well there you go- you knew the answer all along.
OK, this time I'll start: which side you do think I should part my hair on?
;D ;D
Brian
We'll need more information before we can give you an informed answer to that question Brian. How often do you shampoo? What kind of shampoo do you use? Do you use a conditioner, if so, what kind? How often do you use this conditioner? Shower or bath? How often do you get your hair cut?
Just part it in the middle and thank your mother that you have hair left to part. ;)
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50k miles...
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I think this is a reasonable question. I just crossed the 3000 mile mark on my 2011 and finally feel it is fully broken in. Motor spins up effortlessly, the trany shifts butter smooth, the suspension is settled in and responding like glue plus I am feel in tune with the nuisances of the bike. Moving from an 08 with 18,000 miles on it I have come to appreciate the subtle and not so subtle changes and improvements that were made to the bike in '2010. Though there a few things I think the 08 did better I am sold on the '11' and look forward to years of riding with the big happy grin that comes each time I push the start button.
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All the major rotating and reciprocating components in the engine will mate as well as they ever will before the engine has been used for one minute. You asked when the engine would make peak power and MPG, both excellent markers for the state of an engine, and those points will occur early on during the first tank- full of fuel. There are sometimes limitations put on ECU systems, and the C14 may contain one or more, that prevent maximum performance until a certain amount of running time has accumulated or miles have passed. But the rings, cylinder bores, crankshaft and connecting rods as well as their bearings, were all finished and extremely well fitted before the engine was even assembled.
In the olden days engines had to break- in (or as they English call it, 'run in') for some time to seat piston rings in their mating bores. That was because we could not yet make cylinder bores or piston rings round, smooth or correctly surfaced when new. In fact cylinder walls used to be left rough with a cross- hatch pattern in them specifically to have the rings tear into this surface and create a line fit between the piston rings and the cylinder bore. This is not the case today. Most cylinder bores as well as piston rings are coated with materials so hard (ceramics) and so thin (millionths of an inch thick) that they cannot wear appreciably before they fail. Cylinder wall coatings between 30 and 50 millionths of an inch thick will last the life of the engine; if there was any change in shape of either the bore or the rings that coating would be removed, at least in the 'high spots' and the underlying material would fail through spalling shortly afterward. The maximum cylinder pressure is developed with a brand new engine and no time is required or desirable to break it in anymore.
The same thing is true for bearings; they are extremely smooth, round and work because the oil used develops an hydrodynamic bearing that does not allow the two parts (spinning shaft inside the bearing shells) to touch at all. Again, the fit is virtually perfect when new and will only wear out, not break in.
As far as your engine getting quieter, that is probably just the cam chain wearing its way through a somewhat rough spot in the cylinder head, the cylinder block or up against one or more sprockets. The reduction in noise is not really representative of any break in process that has ended.
Flat tappet camshafts theoretically still do require a break in although even that is not really true on motorcycles because the mating surfaces are so hard (cam lobes and follower or tappet). This is easily seen on older, shim- over- bucket systems where the shim is actually the follower and we freely swap those shims around when setting valve lash; if there were a break- in required, it would be required all over again once the shims were moved to different lobes than the ones they originally broke in against.
The engine in a C-14 was started and used, under load, at the factory long before it was shipped across the Pacific. It was probably not run to maximum RPM or under maximum power output but if Kawasaki was really concerned about break in they would not start the new engines on dynamometers and load them in the first minutes of running.
By the way, all of this was ironed out in between the late 30's at Chrysler's R&D area and the few German companies that perfected superfinishing in the early '50's. The final touch was the new coatings developed in the '80's and seeing widespread use in the '90's. It is not even particularly new technology now. I could give an explanation as to what is done to mating surfaces but it would probably bore everyone to tears.
And finally, because none of the rotating / reciprocating parts actually touch, it really does not matter what kind of oil is used for the 'break- in' process.... because there is no break- in process.
Brian
Well, I know some major break in occurred at that point, but I don't know what percentage was done. I think it said in the manual to let the bike idle for 30 secs after starting before the 500 mile mark.
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I think this is a reasonable question. I just crossed the 3000 mile mark on my 2011 and finally feel it is fully broken in. Motor spins up effortlessly, the trany shifts butter smooth, the suspension is settled in and responding like glue plus I am feel in tune with the nuisances of the bike. Moving from an 08 with 18,000 miles on it I have come to appreciate the subtle and not so subtle changes and improvements that were made to the bike in '2010. Though there a few things I think the 08 did better I am sold on the '11' and look forward to years of riding with the big happy grin that comes each time I push the start button.
How was it at 2999 miles? Not broke in?
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The biggest change I noticed was the shifting. The trany was "notch-y" at times, not shifting smoothly. As the miles added up it became smoother like my '08'. I realize this is seat of the pants but feels like the various components of the bike have come together to produce the total ride.
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When you remove the stock Brickstones and put some real tires on it. Then it's broken in. ;)
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When you remove the stock Brickstones and put some real tires on it. Then it's broken in. ;)
There You have it.
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Brian, I know it's crazy, but I really enjoy it and learn a lot when you do that.
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Well thanks for letting me know. I never know how that stuff goes over but then again, I figure everyone can just skip by in if they want....
Brian
Brian, I know it's crazy, but I really enjoy it and learn a lot when you do that.
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I gave her a 1,000 miles of ez work
then under 6 k rev's for another 500 miles
after that
I let her go
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Ditto, dude except for the crazy part.
Brian, what is your recommended break in procedure?
Brian, I know it's crazy, but I really enjoy it and learn a lot when you do that.
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Well I really don't have a recommendation. I don't think you can go wrong with the mfg.'s recommendation though.
My whole point in posting in these kinds of threads is that I just do not think it is really all that critical. Manufacturers cannot give a general statement like 'take it easy on the bike for the first few tankfuls of fuel' because everyone would interpret that differently. So they give very simple instructions that are easy to follow but on the conservative side.
I break my engines in by not using high power outputs until some time accumulates. It is far harder on an engine to run at 3/4 open throttle at 3K RPM and slowly increase speed in 6th gear than it is for the engine to turn 8K RPM very briefly in first or second gear. So I really do not pay attention to the tachometer, just the load on the engine. I also do not hold the throttle very far open at low speed because it tends to heat the internals to pretty high temperatures; I would not climb a long grade with a lot of weight on the bike and the engine doing 3K RPM even though that is within the break- in spec's. It is less stressful on the engine to let it turn at a higher speed but using less throttle, say, 5K RPM; the piston crowns will not get as hot that way.
So I try to keep the load on the engine (throttle opening, especially at low engine speeds) down until the engine has several (say, 6 or 8) cold- hot- cold cycles on it. After that it is about as indestructible as it is ever going to be IMO.
For what it is worth, BMW 1000RR's originally came from the factory without any kind of RPM limit on them and the engine redlines at 14,200 RPM (!). After a while, BMW retrofitted the bikes already sold, and all of the new bikes before sale, with a RPM limit of 8K RPM until the first service, which is supposed to be at 600 miles. I have no information from BMW, and have not heard of any engines actually being destroyed but the casual work I heard is that the max. engine speeds could be hard on the valve train until it was broken in. BMW uses an unusual spherical 'thing' (technical term) which is 1/2 way in-between a Messerschmitt bearing and a normal cam follow shim to set the valve's lash; it looks to be an excellent design but the spherical portion of the rocker portion will have to polish a bit before it should be exposed to those extreme speeds IMO. Just my opinion and I have no knowledge that that is what was failing on the engines, if anything at all. But it is interesting that BMW will let a brand new engine, especially one that powerful and light, to turn that fast from brand new.
Brian
Ditto, dude except for the crazy part.
Brian, what is your recommended break in procedure?
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Thanks for your helpful input.
Tim
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I could give an explanation as to what is done to mating surfaces but it would probably bore everyone to tears.
:popcorn:
I, for one, would like to hear it. Seriously.
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I'd say right at about this point. http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3966.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3966.0)
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FWIW the BMW break in rev limit is 9000 rpm, not 8000 rpm as previously stated.
I bought a 2011 a couple weeks ago to keep my 2010 GTR1400 company and just had the 600 mile service and rev limit removal done this weekend.