Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: timmerz on August 28, 2011, 12:55:33 PM
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My '91 has quit starting, and my mechanic is going through the fail-safes one by one to see where the problem lies...when starter button is pushed there is no dimming of the dash lights, and no audible or visible reaction to the button push...we have checked (bridged) the clutch and kick stand fail-safes, no change...also replaced the J-Box, no change...I was thinking maybe starter relay, but is that in the J-box?
The starter engages when you bridge the ignition wires, and also when you bridge the terminals on the part right next to the J-Box (id needed, please?)...I already bought a new 93 starter button assembly off ebay, but that did not provide a solution...
Anybody got any thoughts right off the bean?
Ok, the part next to the J-Box is now ID'd as the relay, so that will be the next thing we change-out to see if that's the culprit...
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Nope, that's not it either...changed-out the J-Box and now the starter relay AND the starter button mechanism on the right handlebar, and we are plumb outta ideas at this point...like I said, we can get the starter to engage, so we know that the battery has enough juice and that there is juice all the way up to the green plug that the start button/kill switch plugs into, because we can bridge two wires there and get the starter to crank...and this is the second handlebar switch I've tried, because I thought maybe the kill button was malfunctioning...
Any ideas at all?
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Dam I'm sorry I'm not at my computer to study the wiring diagrams. Sounds like it could be in the key switch, kill switch but you changed that so no, neutral switch or clutch switch which is actualy a two way switch.
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mine was clutch switch. i fiddled with the clutch while engaging the button. the used starter button could need disassembled and cleaned, as could the original.
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Yeah, we have checked it several times, cleaned it a few.....thanks for the input, though! If you think of anything else, pop back in....I'm pretty frustrated right now! Wanted to be riding again this week, instead I'm gonna be putt-ing on my XL600r just so I can be on 2 wheels again!
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Some links that might be helpful from moderator George R Young's website (http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/frameindex.htm):
How the J Box works (http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/howJBoxWorks.htm)
J Box problem diagnostics (http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/jBoxDiagnosis.htm)
The second link above discusses No-Start issues and has within it links to the major start system component schematics for both early and late C10, though not the full Connie wiring schematics.
You've mentioned clutch and sidestand interlocks, but not the neutral switch on the tranny? All three must be grounded for "go" at the start relay.
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Thanks Centex, we had already printed those out and worked our way through them....still baffled.....hmmmm, the neutral indicator on the dash has been lit green this whole time, so we are assuming the neutral switch is grounded....I wonder if the light operates independently by some other switch?
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Wrote this before the great fire.....
Help my Concours will not start and I don’t know what to do.
(Bike does not Turn Over or Crank)
Tools needed Multi-Meter and a couple of Test Cords with Alligator Clips on both ends and Test Cords with an Alligator Clip on one end and a sharp probe on the other end.
1. First off put the Bike on the Center Stand and make absolutely sure the bike is in Neutral by turning the rear wheel by hand. Remove the Seat and the left hand Side Cover. This is as good as a time as any to try the “Thumping the J-Box” trick as sometimes a good solid thump from the handle end of a screwdriver can get a defective J-Box to work at least one more time.
2. What is my Battery Voltage? If you have anything remotely less than 12.5 Volts DC you just as soon stop and go get the Battery Charger or Jumper Cables because the battery does not have the energy needed to crank the engine.
3. With the Key Switch in the ON position test the Horn. Does the Horn work? If yes you can skip step 4.
4. Remove the cover from the Fuse Box which was exposed when you removed the Left Side Cover. Check your 30 Amp Main Fuse is it any good? If yes proceed to next step if it is bad replace it; try starting the bike if it blows again you got serious problems.
5. Could it be that the Neutral Switch is on vacation? This is easy to determine simply pull in the Clutch and try starting the bike. If the Bike cranks then the Neutral Switch is at fault and needs to be attended to; if not the Starter Lockout Switch could be at fault. The SLS is that tiny little switch that you can hear click when you pull in the clutch lever.
6. You can bypass the SLS by taking a suitable test cord and attaching it to Ground (Negative side of the Bike) such as a bare bolt head on the frame or engine and with the sharp probe poke it into the connector at the J-Box (behind the fuse box) into the Yellow with Green Stripe wire. Note this completely bypasses the Neutral Switch as well as the SLS. Keep in mind that it when the clutch is not pulled in that it takes both of these switches to allow your starter to work. Try starting the bike; if the bike cranks then the SLS needs some attention.
7. If you did not find issue in the above steps we are going to find out if your issue is the Ignition Switch, Stop Switch, Start Button, Starter Solenoid, or the dreaded J-Box; so let’s do the easy stuff first. Take a test cord and attach it to the (+) Positive Side of the Battery and touch it to the terminal on the side of the Starter Solenoid that the Yellow with Red Striped wire attaches to. Did the starter motor engage and crank the engine over? If no then you got a bad Solenoid.
8. Next we are going to take that same test lead that is attached to (+) and connect it to the Black wire going to the J-Box if the engine tries to crank over then the J-Box has passed it’s first test! As this means that the Starter Relay Circuit in the J-Box is good. If you failed this test get another J-Box or remove it for repairs.
9. Now you need to remove the Fuel Tank and find the Ignition Switch Plug which is located near to the Steering Stem under the Fuel Tank on the Left Side. Ok now take your (+) test lead and probe it into yellow wire and try to start the engine if the engine cranks you have a bad Ignition Switch.
10. If no then your next step is check the Kill Switch and/or Starter Button. With the same (+) test lead probe into the red wire in your Right Hand Control Pod Connector. Now try starting the engine if the engine cranks then your Kill Switch is at fault if not your problem lies in the Starter Button.
You see in the above very easy steps you have tested every segment of the Starter Circuit with no real tools or skills at all; please note that you can just as easily use the Multi Meter to test your switches and circuits by checking for voltage and/or continuity but I was looking to guide you through this as simply as I could with crude broad strokes that you can mange to do roadside if your in a pinch or lack the proper tools at home.
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Thanks VERY much, T Cro! Printed this out, got to get some sort of voltage tester gadget...
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Hah! I even saved this info even though there are no starting issues with mine but it seems as though any time I take measures and am prepared for something like this, it doesn't happen...not that I'm superstitious or anything... :loco:
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I know you have said you have battery power, but have you pulled the battery and had it load tested? How old is the battery?
Yuasa batteries are notorious for SDS (sudden death syndrome)....broken internal bond between cells, that show voltage untill they are "loaded", and then there is nothing (2v)
just tossing it out there. ;)
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Real good point, MOB....and the batt DID go dead while we were doing all the testing with the tail light on and sometimes the headlight on....so I'm pretty sure I'll be putting skid marks on the MasterCard next weekend already! :-X
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If you have jumper cables handy, you could properly attach those to the battery terminals, and another convenient 12v battery, and see if the starter suddenly works. If so, good chance the battery theory may be correct.
I was thinking you may have a faulty/worn wire between the starter switch and the solenoid somewhere, but that was already covered above I think. Also, the switch itself might need some tlc, but again, this was covered above.
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Yep that's why checking the battery voltage is right at the top of my list. Batteries can and do go south at the drop of a hat; my high dollar PC680 shorted out with absolutely no warning. And without a well charged battery most any other test you do is going to be worthless or give questionable results. BTW not to hijack but for 133.00 a fresh ( as in March or April) PC680 is waiting on me to get home as we speak.
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Real good point, MOB....and the batt DID go dead while we were doing all the testing with the tail light on and sometimes the headlight on....so I'm pretty sure I'll be putting skid marks on the MasterCard next weekend already!
I had a sealed AGM unit do the same thing on return trip from Mt. Snow on my GPZ.
Just east of Cleveland dash lights go out when hitting starter button after gas stop.
Battery measured 13.1+ volts but it had NOTHING left. Turning key on and off, dash would light or go dark but brake lights would work, then no brake lights AND no dash lights. If the dash lights were lit, the instant starter button was pushed - they went dark without a hint of power ever hitting the starter.
Very odd to have stuff turn on, then off then nothing at all. The clock worked through the entire routine, at least until the old battery was removed.
We jumped Randy's C10 battery to it, and all was normal. An hour or so and a new battery from AutoZone later we were back in business.
In hindsight, I should've replaced it before leaving to return to MI, but since it seemed sporadic AND load tested fine at Advance Auto in Bennington, I wasn't positive a new batt. would be it.
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What the Hell,
Dead ground on Kill switch, says it's in Neutral, but, is she actually in gear?
Dirty key switch tumblers, and i hate be redundant, no cranking amps in battery, plenty of volts, just no amps.
Sounds like a real head scratcher, good luck, and please let us all know what the jury has found.
Ride safe all,
Greg
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If you have jumper cables handy, you could properly attach those to the battery terminals, and another convenient 12v battery, and see if the starter suddenly works. If so, good chance the battery theory may be correct.
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while often times this is a safe assumption, and an "easy test", I will say use extreme caution, and be prepared to pull the cables at a seconds notice.....here's why:
I recently watched in terror, what I thought was a woman's engine engulfed in flames outside my office window..... I ran down the hall, grabbing a fire extinguisher, and across the lot to her car where I saw what was happening....luckily.
Seems a pretty non-mechanically inclined sales engineer had attached jumpers to the womans battery, and proceded to hook them up to the battery on his big buck$ Escalade, cranked his car up, and sat there attempting to charge the womans battery, when she hit the key, and began to attempt to start her car that had a "sudden death battery", the jumpers totally melted down, and caught fire, all the insulation was burning/burnt/drripping off of the red hot wires, which began shorting out together while all parties stood there doing nothing.....luckily there was a rag present, and I used it to pull the cables off the Escalade, and then off her cars battery. I almost hosed the dumb guy down with dry Chem just because he stood there watching it all melt down. ??? :'(
She had a typical "hot weather failure where her battery (old) actually overcharged and boiled out, allowing total dead short between all the plates, killing the battery, and when they jumped it....and she hit the key with the other vehical cranking out mega amps....well, let's say they were lucky. I know it had to have shot sparks when he hooked up the cables....
just use care, and always be prepared for the unexpected. ;)
A battery with an internal defect/fault, can explode when an attempt to jump it by attaching to the faulty battery's cables is used.
Another quick thing to check is the condition of the black/yellow ground wire attached to the mounting bolt on the left hand coil, it often becomes damaged at the ring lug, and can refuse to allow proper starting current to latch the solenoid.
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What the Hell,
Dead ground on Kill switch, says it's in Neutral, but, is she actually in gear?
Dirty key switch tumblers, and i hate be redundant, no cranking amps in battery, plenty of volts, just no amps.
Sounds like a real head scratcher, good luck, and please let us all know what the jury has found.
Ride safe all,
Greg
I'll definitely post the resolution when the problem becomes apparent...thanks for the input, Greg...going to take T. Cro's list step by step, see if we can locate the problem, about the only things we did not cover yet are the centerstand to check for actual neutral (green indicator is on at dash, but....) and we have not touched the ignition yet....all obvious lights come on when the key is turned, and signals and high beam work....
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if you are squeezing the clutch in it won't matter if you have a false neutral green light. That's the easiest way to eliminate the light. Well, considering your clutch switch and wiring are good.
Maybe jumper across the relay pins of the starter circuit relay in the j-box? (and do all the other steps; kill sw on, key on, clutch in, sidestand up... although clutch in should bypass that).
You said it was not the starter solenoid (relay... the one to the left of the j-box). Of course if the 2 small wires to it are not seeing voltage then it won't engage. Since you replaced you don't need to check to see if it's being told to close and isn't - I have seen them bind up and not be able to engage.
Mark
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Yeah, RedWyvern, we have verified that the relay is ok, you can arc over the top of it and the starter engages...
The situation is this: the part of the harness that the right handlebar controls plug into is right up by the streering head, under the left-front of the tank...we can arc the hot and the starter wire there and the starter will engage, so we know we have good juice and good wiring from there to the starter...however, when we plug in any of the three different handlebar controls we have at our disposal, nothing happens when the starter button gets pushed. I have the original controls, another set bought on Ebay that were sworn to have worked when they were removed from the '93 they came off of, and yet another extra set my mechanic had on hand that he believed were perfectly good also...
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Darn, I thought we might have something with your first sentence, but then read the next paragraph.... (Arcing doesn't prove the relay is working. Does the starter and the battery... by shorting the 2 wires you didn't check that the coil isn't open, or that the relay is not binded/frozen inside.) But then you said hot you hotwire it up by the steering head, and everything engages and fires. That rules out the relay, so in a way it's one thing you can be sure of, but darn, tisn't it.
Ok, you mentioned 3 sets of wiring, and with the info above about arcing...with a harness plugged in, if you short the solder leads behind the starter button, does it fix it? If not, It indicates an open from the switch to the connector by the steering head. It is possible the male or female connector in the big connector has moved a bit out of reach, or opened enough not to make a good contact (or is tarnished). I'd have to say it would be the connection in the connector on the bike, not the 3 others, as odds are one of those would've worked, if not two.
Those big white connectors can be a trick to get into to make a connection, but if you jumper from the head one to the handlebar one and try the starter, you might figure out which of the 2 wires it is (if it is a bad connection there).
I know you arc'd the head one, but this doesn't necessarily mean the opposing pin from the handlebar connector is getting a connection, unless you used a shorting wire of say female to female (again, I'm not sure if the steering head connection has male or females in it). Jamming a wire in there can easily make a connection even though the spade connector may not.
Something to try... if this is confusing send me a PM w/ your phone number, might sound clearer talking it out.
The right handlebar only has the kill and starter buttons for the wiring. Did he install the other handlbar switch assemblies or just leave them dangling (so rules out making a contact with the handlebar/ground)?
Mark
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Yeah, now you're moving down the path we have been treading...Jim, my mechanic, was pretty convinced when we got to this point that there was an issue with the receiving connector on the harness, so I bought another harness off Ebay and he spliced the connector from the newer harness onto my bike, and we still have the same problem...we can engage the starter by bridging the hot and the starter wire at that connector, but when we install any one of the 3 start buttons nothing happens....
Do you know if there is any important ground contact on the handlebar for the start switch mechanism? That's the only part that's been left dangling, and I think we tried each both on and off the bar....
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Jim def sounds good. Some mechanics have a hard time w/ the electrical.
Handlebar - no, there is no ground that gets made by attaching the switch assembly. I was concerned that maybe something was somehow shorting something to the handlebar, but leaving it dangling ruled that out.
I'm saying "huh" about the connector. You replaced it, and still... hmmmm. Trying to think, but nothing is coming on that one.
When you say you bridge the hot at the connector, is the handlebar switch assy (will refer to as switch assy) connector there, or disconnected? I'm guessing he is arcing by shorting in the connector from the steering head, as it is the easiest way to make contact.
Can you make the connection with the switch assy, and then try to short through the back of the handlebar connector? (The side the wires come out of). Does it start? If so, that is def pointing you towards the switch assy. If not, it's in the connector.
I imagine he has ohm'd from the switch assy connector to each associated solder connection on the switch. This would prove the wiring is good. I also imagine he has ohm'd each switch to make sure it is opening and closing, proving them good.
I find it odd 3 switch assy's are bad in the same way. It's just too unlikely. And based on what I've read about you and Jim it's safe to say the killswitch hasn't accidentally been left off.
I'll let this bother me some more and hope I might come up with something else ::)
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ManofBlues, I trust no one with jumper cables. Sharing some other info not to insult anyone but to help those who haven't jumped a lot... I've seen reverse polarity, people say they know pos from neg, had one idiot hand me the jaws of pain open and let it go on my hand (military, in the dark, so I couldn't see he had it open. Man did that hurt). My biggest concern is the positive clamp popping off and making contact with ground. These crappy connectors w/a 1/4" or so tiny bolt that you can't get a bite on are real good at having a clamp pop free. Also, you can get a good clamp bite, but when they let go of the clamp the weight of the wire makes it pop off. And this is where there is access room - on a motorcycle the access to the pos terminal or wire on the relay is very tight and always near frame, meaning ground. I hold the pos clamp the entire time.
Oh, yeh, even seen people hand me the clamps touching each other in one hand... while the other end is being connected to a battery.
Again, I trust no one!
One other tip. If you jump someone, do not start your car. If they have a short (battery, alternator or regulator), it can short out your charging system, which typically lasts about a poof, and then opens. Fortunately my neighbor bought me a new voltage regulator a week later when I found my battery was no longer being charged and had lost it's stored juice.
Never have a car running when jumping a motorcycle, or even run the car to charge it (if you do, do it only for a few minutes).
All that said, crappy cables are just that. If you are going to buy a set, invest in them. Small dia wire can't carry much current, and current draw is big from a starter. If they are small, let the good car charge the bad battery, if you dare (again, damage to your car could result), for a bit, then shut the car and try starting the other.
Also, the longer the wire, the larger it needs to be.
And last, I hate painted clamps. Some of the newer ones are all nice and plastic encased... just watch as often one of the two jaws in it are not electrically connected. They are just there for bite/grip. So if you clamp your starter relay where one jaw is on the nut and the other is biting the rubber mount or something not part of the positive wiring, you don't get a connection.
Mark
Mark
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{Jim def sounds good. Some mechanics have a hard time w/ the electrical.}
He's worth his weight in gold, for me...I am reasonably intelligent, and a reasonably good bass player, but f*ck me runnin' if I could even just do one little mechanical thing on my own stuff without screwing it up! Some guys can do it and make it look completely simple, then I try the same thing and the bolt breaks, or the threads strip, or whatever...
{When you say you bridge the hot at the connector, is the handlebar switch assy (will refer to as switch assy) connector there, or disconnected? I'm guessing he is arcing by shorting in the connector from the steering head, as it is the easiest way to make contact.}
What I mean when I say we are arcing the hot and the starter wire there at the connector that the "switch assy" plugs into is that Jim has a short piece of 12g stranded with both ends stripped back 1/2", one end in the hot of the connector, the other end in the connector spade of the wire straight to the starter or the relay, wherever it goes, so effectively bypassing everything else...we are pulling the hot and the starter connection from the same connector, thereby proving that we have juice all the way up to there...
Jim has the bike up at his shop now, so he's blessed with all the electrical gadgets he was without when we were working on it here at my place on the patio, so I'm expecting one of those "Hey, you know what it was? You're never gonna guess!" calls anytime now. {fingers crossed!}
....and yeah, we are both super-cognizant of the possibilities of over-looking the kill switch...in fact, when we started this whole fiasco, I initally called him saying I thought the kill swith had gone bad, the bike just shut down, then started up briefly, then shut down completely......I imagine he's up there with his ohm-meter right now, verifying juice at the kill switch and at the button hot side, then going from there...again, fingers crossed!
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LOL timmer... I know we've all broken a valuable bolt, etc. Or gotten everything bolted back up only to find a spare part sitting out. Even did it last week... changed chain and sprockets with a friend on his VStrom. He had never done it, and with some encouragement, wanted to try. We dove in (actually, I played management, he busted knuckles). The hardest part (besides not grabbing a tool and helping) was riveting the master link on... I'm used to the clip on a master link, so it was new to me too. That part took way too long.
Once we got it all buttoned up I'm wiping and putting away my tools and find a safety nut that goes over the front sprocket nut sitting next to the 24mm socket. It even looked like a socket, hence us missing it (and it not being with all the other bolts). We laughed, I told'm I'd get it (he was a bit slow, but of course we all are the first time. The link took so long we were both on cinderella curfew and I had to hurry to get it on and back together).
Thing is, a shop would've either left the bolt off or charged the time for making it right.
Mark
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I once had some weirdness with dirty connections on the battery terminals.
Totally intermittent- crank/run fine, not crank/not start with no rhyme or reason.
Traced connections, resoldered the J box, dialectric grease on steel wooled connectors, replaced several connectors, checked everything multiple times... mine was BCCS- battery cable corrosion, subtle, and it made me crazy for a while. Batt just didn't look bad... Finally make sure everything was SHINY CLEAN, top/ bottom, and threads of battery posts as well as the cable ends and it solved the problem. I felt kind of sheepish after all my work on the problem...
HTH,
KenE
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Well, the decision got made....tear this biatch down! Since I have a newer wiring harness, Jim is stripping the bike down to start from scratch and replace the entire wiring harness, then build everything on top piece by piece, so we can see when the problem begins to happen, if it does at all with the new harness...Jim is betting on worn wires being the culprit here, and I'm agreeing...I just can't figure any other cause that would make sense...gotta be one of the sections of the harness that's right up against the frame backbone or one of the frame corners, something like that...
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....Another quick thing to check is the condition of the black/yellow ground wire attached to the mounting bolt on the left hand coil, it often becomes damaged at the ring lug, and can refuse to allow proper starting current to latch the solenoid.
did you look closely at the spot I mentioned?
what was the outcome????????
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Sorry, MOB...I made the decision to tear it down and replace the entire wiring harness and whatever associated wiring was necessary to ensure the problem went away before we got to check your suggestion...I'll definitely bring it to Jim's attention this weekend so he can check it out as he's piecing it back together, though...thanks a mil!
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Well, after the complete teardown and re-build with all-new wiring, the problem finally became apparent: ignition switch.
I haven't heard the details yet, I just know that he has installed an extra used one he has there and I will be using it until I can get one off Ebay for myself, but the bike starts and runs well with the new one in place.....so!
Good things happened to the rest of the bike while the wiring was being replaced: new rear disc, rear caliper rebuilt, fluid new, pads new...front brake pads replaced, front and rear wheel bearings replaced, something with the carbs where they had to be removed and new boots bought to faccilitate re-installing, carb synching, valve adjustment, fan switch replaced, and finally, used inner fairings installed where there were none before...so all in all, we are talking a completely different bike than the one I helped him load into his truck 2 weeks ago!