Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: vortex2 on August 19, 2011, 12:30:48 PM
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Owners manual says replace plugs numerous times.
7K 14K 22.5K
I just replaced mine at 25k the gaps were all fine.
Bike ran fine.
I think this was discussed before but lost on the forum shift.
Thoughts?
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My thought is that it's a money grab for the dealers and a CYA for mama kawa. Replacing spark plugs is a thing of the past.
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I believe a lot of this is for corrosion. Sometimes the plugs LAST for a hundred thousand, btu ti makes a mess of the threads in the head when the old plugs are removed. The yz400 dirt bike is a good example where this happens. The plug is DEEP in the head and by the time it goes bad, the corrosion is unreal.
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45k and haven't changed them yet. Bike still runs well. I'll probably do it at 50k.
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mine are getting replaced next week at 16K mi. I prepaid for a maintenance package and the plug change is a part of it. as well as 1 valve adjustment. I'm waiting till I have over 20k for the valve adjust. Wanna make sure they actuall have something to adjust. ;D
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Yeah, I skipped those intervals for changing the plugs also but in addition, I skipped the change at 30K, 37.5K, and 45K as well. Changed them at 50K and they still looked great, and all gapped to w/in 0.001" of the factory spec. I checked mine at 25K when I checked the valve lash and they looked so good I put them back in for another 25K miles.
It was discussed at great length on the old forum and while I do not think any of us really knows the right answer, it seems to be an emissions requirement, just as the valve lash check interval seems to be emissions related.
Brian
Owners manual says replace plugs numerous times.
7K 14K 22.5K
I just replaced mine at 25k the gaps were all fine.
Bike ran fine.
I think this was discussed before but lost on the forum shift.
Thoughts?
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I agree that corrosion can be a big problem with spark plugs in aluminum heads. They can get so bad that the plug hex is broken off before the plug is removed, or the plugs come out with the threads from the head still attached.
The cure is not necessarily to change the plugs though, a very light coating of anti- seize will prevent the plug from corroding to the head. I always use some anti- seize on any spark plug anytime it is installed, be it a new or old plug. It just requires a bit of care when tightening the plugs because of the greatly reduced thread friction; the original torque spec. is a bit much for an anti- seize coated plug in my opinion.
Brian
I believe a lot of this is for corrosion. Sometimes the plugs LAST for a hundred thousand, btu ti makes a mess of the threads in the head when the old plugs are removed. The yz400 dirt bike is a good example where this happens. The plug is DEEP in the head and by the time it goes bad, the corrosion is unreal.
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I agree that corrosion can be a big problem with spark plugs in aluminum heads. They can get so bad that the plug hex is broken off before the plug is removed, or the plugs come out with the threads from the head still attached.
The cure is not necessarily to change the plugs though, a very light coating of anti- seize will prevent the plug from corroding to the head. I always use some anti- seize on any spark plug anytime it is installed, be it a new or old plug. It just requires a bit of care when tightening the plugs because of the greatly reduced thread friction; the original torque spec. is a bit much for an anti- seize coated plug in my opinion.
Brian
You've never owned a Ford with a Triton engine have you? I agree will everything you said. But sometimes anti seize isn't enough.
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I don't klnow why i change mine so often. Every 25,000 miles is a waste on these plugs.
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I agree that corrosion can be a big problem with spark plugs in aluminum heads. They can get so bad that the plug hex is broken off before the plug is removed, or the plugs come out with the threads from the head still attached.
The cure is not necessarily to change the plugs though, a very light coating of anti- seize will prevent the plug from corroding to the head. I always use some anti- seize on any spark plug anytime it is installed, be it a new or old plug. It just requires a bit of care when tightening the plugs because of the greatly reduced thread friction; the original torque spec. is a bit much for an anti- seize coated plug in my opinion.
Brian
Clarification please. My intuition tells me reduced thread friction would call for more torque. Is My intuition wrong again >:(
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When a given torque is applied to any fastener (or any screw of any type), a percentage of that torque is converted into linear force (the 'tightening' force) and a part of that torque is wasted overcoming friction between the mating threads (and converted to heat but we really do not care about that). As the thread friction is reduced the linear force goes up. When we tighten a fastener what we really want is a given force (or stretch) applied to the fastener head, or the sealing ring of a spark plug in this case. So when the threads are coated with anti- seize the friction goes down and the force applied goes up for a given torque. So to maintain the same force on the sealing ring of a spark plug after applying anti- seize (or any friction reducing material) we must reduce the applied torque.
To expand on that a bit, we only use torque to measure the value of 'tightness' on a fastener because we can directly and easily measure the torque applied. What we really want to measure is the force applied to the fastener but that is difficult to measure. But measuring torque is a 'best guess' situation anyway because anything that changes the thread friction alters the torque / force relationship. It works best for things like head bolts because the threads are clean and a lubricant is usually specified (motor oil in most cases). It works really pretty poorly for things like lug nuts because of the dirt, rust, deformation, flaking plating, etc., etc. that is really all over the place.
The way that works extremely well is to measure the stretch actually applied to a fastener. The stress / strain relationship (stretch to force applied) of steel is very well understood and documented. Chevrolet small block connecting rod bolts are best tightened this way; a gauge is put over the bolt before tightening and set to zero: when the bolt stretch reads 0.007" or 0.009" (I do not remember which), the bolt is <correctly> tightened regardless of the torque applied to the nut on the far side of the fastener. Obviously something like this is impossible to do with a spark plug though. As an aside, come critical fasteners are made with a built- in strain gauge which is used to <correctly> tighten them.
As a bad 'rule' of thumb, machined steel threads are considered to be 50% efficient (50% of the applied torque is used to make force, 50% is wasted as thread friction). A very good extreme pressure lubricant may raise that number to 80% or 85%. So here is what I do with the spark plugs in my C-14: I use anti- seize which is a fair extreme pressure lubricant, I do not bother looking up the recommended torque for the spark plug, and then I install them using a 14mm box end wrench on the end of the Kawasaki supplied spark plug tool. I tighten them too exactly "reasonably snug", being very careful not to over tighten them. Yeah, I know that is funny but it is the truth. Bolt tightening torque is not a very exact thing under good circumstances anyway, and anything w/in 40% of correct is more than close enough in most cases. Case in point: there is a very specific torque specified for the rear axle bolt of a C-14. So we tighten that fastener to exactly the correct torque…. and then tighten or loosen it slightly so that the cotter pin holes align.
I bet that is way more than you wanted to know about tightening spark plugs. :D
Brian
Clarification please. My intuition tells me reduced thread friction would call for more torque. Is My intuition wrong again >:(
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Wow.... and I only just tighten them by feel...
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Thanks. That does make sense. I just finished replacing sparkplugs on my wife's 07 Miata. Plug thread seizing has been a reported problem. Interestingly enough Mazda give a fairly wide range for the torque rather than a single value. At Miata.net the gurus who use anti-sieze tighten to the bottom of the range.
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When you torque your castle nut at the rear axle to 94 FT LBS, and the holes don't line up, tighten the nut more to line it up. Never loosen it. ;)
I always use a torque wrench on the axle nut, but have never used one for spark plugs. :)
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Wow.... and I only just tighten them by feel...
That's what she said...
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Yeah, the whole point of tightening spark plugs is so that 1) they don't leak combustion gasses (not likely if more than hand- tight) and 2) they don't loosen up (not likely if they are more than hand tight). The whole torque thing is taken too seriously most times I think, although there are critical areas that should be tightened carefully and to a known amount such as steering head bearings (not really a fastener, in that case you are preloading the bearings themselves).
Brian
Thanks. That does make sense. I just finished replacing sparkplugs on my wife's 07 Miata. Plug thread seizing has been a reported problem. Interestingly enough Mazda give a fairly wide range for the torque rather than a single value. At Miata.net the gurus who use anti-sieze tighten to the bottom of the range.
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You've never owned a Ford with a Triton engine have you? I agree will everything you said. But sometimes anti seize isn't enough.
Yep, and still do, it's the aluminum head V-9!
P.S. If you look up in the sky at about 10 pm in the vicinity of Polaris you will see my AutoLite spark plug still orbiting. :-\
Fretka
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Actually I do but have never changed the plugs because they look far too difficult to do in that Expedition. I am fairly large and I still have to stand on something and reach WAY over the engine compartment to get to the back of the heads. There is a gentleman down the road who does this for a very reasonable price so I pass on that one.
I am not saying you are wrong but I have never seen anti- seize fail and allow a seizure. Part of the usage is to coat the entire thread; it is not enough to put a dab on the threads and assume the stuff will spread everywhere when the threaded part is installed. I wipe the anti- seize into the threads using a paper towel and use a 'screwing' motion (easy boys!) to drive the stuff down into the threads to the root (easy again boys!). Once coated, I do not think the aluminum parent material can actually touch the steel threads and cause seizure. But I have been wrong before and will be again... maybe this is just the next time. ;)
Brian
You've never owned a Ford with a Triton engine have you? I agree will everything you said. But sometimes anti seize isn't enough.
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They have a very well documented problem that is due more to bad engineering than anything else. The last time my step dad took his 5.4l engine into the shop to have his spark plugs changed it cost him about $800 (Which is cheap compared to some) because they broke more than half the plugs getting them out. And as Fretka alluded too, they are also known for occasionally blowing the plugs out of the heads. ON some thing like that I would recommend changing them sooner just so you can get them out of the heads easier and not waiting for them to wear out.
And to add to your little Torque dissertation, A 3600 series Caterpillar has 4 Head bolts per head. To "Torque" the head bolts we install special presses on the end of the studs and pressure them up to a set pressure (28,000PSI IIRC) and then snug the nuts. Creates the proper tension on the bolt and no worries about lube or any twisting forces on the bolt.
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Yep, I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the spark plugs in that engine, nor that there is a problem in the head directly. I am saying that I cannot see how any threaded device, including spark plugs, can seize in a threaded hole unless the entire thing has been heated to a very high temperature. I have seen anti- seize (the normal, common, silver (nickel) based type) fail (more like disappear) but only when the parts in question had been repeatedly heated to temperatures high enough to produce 'color' (over 1,000 F) for long periods of time. Spark plug bodies just do not get that hot, at least not anywhere near the threads.
OFFTOPIC I was not aware of that method of tightening a head- thanks for mentioning it.
As one more aside about correct tensioning of fasteners: in the 'olden' days, most civil projects made of steel plate were fastened together with hot rivets (skyscrapers like the Empire State Building, bridges, etc.). We tend to look on these as old fashioned and probably a poor method to use. Quite the contrary: when a rivet is hot enough to flow (as it is when peening the head over), the steel in the rivet expands and relaxes. As the rivet cools, it shrinks and puts the proper amount of tension on the two members being held together. Hot rivets are labor intensive and fairly slow to install compared with today's threaded fasteners and hydraulic impact drivers but they work extremely well and count on nothing but physics to tension properly. Almost like a magic fastener that really cannot be miss- installed.
Brian
They have a very well documented problem that is due more to bad engineering than anything else. The last time my step dad took his 5.4l engine into the shop to have his spark plugs changed it cost him about $800 (Which is cheap compared to some) because they broke more than half the plugs getting them out. And as Fretka alluded too, they are also known for occasionally blowing the plugs out of the heads. ON some thing like that I would recommend changing them sooner just so you can get them out of the heads easier and not waiting for them to wear out.
And to add to your little Torque dissertation, A 3600 series Caterpillar has 4 Head bolts per head. To "Torque" the head bolts we install special presses on the end of the studs and pressure them up to a set pressure (28,000PSI IIRC) and then snug the nuts. Creates the proper tension on the bolt and no worries about lube or any twisting forces on the bolt.
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You guys have me nervous now. Is the 4.7 Overhead cam Ford engine a "triton" The one in my Grand Marquis just turned 120,000 and the last time I pulled the plugs was at 100,000. They looked good so I screwed them back in. I didn't have any trouble removing them and I didn't antiseize anything. The car still gets 18-19 in town and 25 ish on the road. should I worry?
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You mean a 4.6? The 4.7 is a 289 which is the old Windsor engine. The 4.6 is considered a Triton engine but doesn't seem to be as prone to having spark plug issues as the the larger 5.4s and V10s. It does still happen occasionally but not near as often.
I'm not saying EVERY Triton engine will have problems with the spark plugs, but it is a known issue that seems to plague quite a few. Kind of like hydro-locking a C10 . Enough people have had problems with it to keep it in mind but not everyone will have that problem.
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Sometime around 2000 or 2001 they redesigned the Triton heads with additional threads since there were a lot of the 1997-1999 motors that spit the plugs out. My 1997 5.4 hasn't had it happen yet (174,000 miles knock on wood) but supposedly the chances of having a problem if using the motorcraft plugs is a little less if the plugs are torqued correctly without antiseize.
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OFFTOPIC
Well there we are.... now this thread contains information saying to ALWAYS use anti- seize and NEVER use anti- seize. ;D
Seriously though, having threads that are too short and having combustion pressure actually blow the spark plug out of a head is a very different problem than having a spark plug's threads seize in a head. In fact, these two problems are totally unrelated. If those Fords are actually <shearing> the aluminum threads off to eject the spark plug then I really cannot see how anti- seize, or any thread compound of any type, could change the likelihood of that happening.
Back ONTOPIC:
But let's all remember that ejecting spark plugs is NOT a C-14 problem and this discussion is about Ford Triton engines. Otherwise this could turn into another internet legend about C-14s ejecting spark plugs through the frame and fuel tank only to have them pierce the rider in the butt....
Brian
Sometime around 2000 or 2001 they redesigned the Triton heads with additional threads since there were a lot of the 1997-1999 motors that spit the plugs out. My 1997 5.4 hasn't had it happen yet (174,000 miles knock on wood) but supposedly the chances of having a problem if using the motorcraft plugs is a little less if the plugs are torqued correctly without antiseize.
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OFFTOPIC
Well there we are.... now this thread contains information saying to ALWAYS use anti- seize and NEVER use anti- seize. ;D
Seriously though, having threads that are too short and having combustion pressure actually blow the spark plug out of a head is a very different problem than having a spark plug's threads seize in a head. In fact, these two problems are totally unrelated. If those Fords are actually <shearing> the aluminum threads off to eject the spark plug then I really cannot see how anti- seize, or any thread compound of any type, could change the likelihood of that happening.
Back ONTOPIC:
But let's all remember that ejecting spark plugs is NOT a C-14 problem and this discussion is about Ford Triton engines. Otherwise this could turn into another internet legend about C-14s ejecting spark plugs through the frame and fuel tank only to have them pierce the rider in the butt....
Brian
I guess I should have posted a disclaimer saying that I have never heard or seen a C14 shoot a plug. ;D And I actually have read that the triton motor can shoot a plug without needing a helicoil so they just blew a plug without damaging the threads. Sorry ...... back on topic.
My plugs with 20,000+ miles looked great (and probably would have been fine for another 20-30,000 miles) but I replaced them for peace of mind since I had everything torn apart for the valve check anyway.
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Sometime around 2000 or 2001 they redesigned the Triton heads with additional threads since there were a lot of the 1997-1999 motors that spit the plugs out. My 1997 5.4 hasn't had it happen yet (174,000 miles knock on wood) but supposedly the chances of having a problem if using the motorcraft plugs is a little less if the plugs are torqued correctly without antiseize.
The redesign helped but didn't fully correct the problem. My step dad's F150 was an 05.
OFFTOPIC
Well there we are.... now this thread contains information saying to ALWAYS use anti- seize and NEVER use anti- seize. ;D
Seriously though, having threads that are too short and having combustion pressure actually blow the spark plug out of a head is a very different problem than having a spark plug's threads seize in a head. In fact, these two problems are totally unrelated. If those Fords are actually <shearing> the aluminum threads off to eject the spark plug then I really cannot see how anti- seize, or any thread compound of any type, could change the likelihood of that happening.
Back ONTOPIC:
But let's all remember that ejecting spark plugs is NOT a C-14 problem and this discussion is about Ford Triton engines. Otherwise this could turn into another internet legend about C-14s ejecting spark plugs through the frame and fuel tank only to have them pierce the rider in the butt....
Brian
That is one heck of a ricochet to have a spark plug hit you in the butt. Unless your riding your C14 backwards, Do you? Is that to protect your family jewels from a spark plug being ejected from the engine?
Anyways Back ontopic I just felt compelled to bring it up because you said to always use antiseize and it will solve all your problems. Antisieze will solve a myriad of problems to be sure, but not all of them. I had to prove that the great B.D.F. could be mistaken. I'll sleep better tonight knowing I have done that. Or else the Large quantity of alcohol I've imbibed in will do that. I'm not really sure which.
Have you ever tried to proof read your post when your toasted? It's a lot harder than it looks.
And back on topic, My bike has 7k miles on it. I shouldn't have to worry about spark plugs anytime soon. I think. Unless it blows them out of the heads. Can that happen? I read on the internet somewhere that it can happen. I don't want that to happen. That would be bad.
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:stirpot: