Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Haroldo_PSF on July 28, 2011, 10:48:47 AM
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Hi all, again! ;D
So, again, now that the new tire dillema is solved for this upcoming trip, I am thinking about the usual way I pack. See the picture attached. Typically, this is how I go. It's only 4 days, and I can pack enough underwear in there as shown.
I was thinking, this trunk (Kawasaki small) weights just as much, or a little more, than one saddle bag. However, it's mounted so high...
In your opinion, would the advantage of lower mounting position of two saddlebags overcome the disadvantage of their higher weight?
I have done this trip for the past 3 years with the trunk as shown, but was wondering if I should try the bags and if, despite their higher weight, if the bike would feel more nimble?
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I can tell a difference in how my C14 feels when I have loaded down the top box, but I have never noticed a difference from no panniers to full panniers. I think the center of gravity is the biggest issue like you stated.
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I can tell a difference in how my C14 feels when I have loaded down the top box, but I have never noticed a difference from no panniers to full panniers. I think the center of gravity is the biggest issue like you stated.
My thoughts, exactly!
BTW Haroldo, don't forget to bring a phone book on your trip.....I've heard that you have "many uses" for one while performing repairs on your bike..... :rotflmao: :stirpot: :chugbeer:
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There would always be an advantage in handling with a lower center of gravity. Having a trunk on the back of the bike higher up will effect the handling of a motorcycle by raising the center of gravity. Maybe not to an extent that a lot of people might notice. But one past bikes as well as mine now. The higher and more weight on the bike, the harder it will be to turn. Maybe not a lot. But it will take a little more effort to pull the bike over into a turn. If you are concerned about handling aspects on a trip and need to choose between the trunk and the side bags. The side bags will give you more storage space as well as keep your center of gravity lower with any equipment and clothing that you will have with you on your voyage. Also any weight is noticeable. The lower you can keep it, the better the bike will turn.
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If I am following your question correctly, you cannot use the saddlebags to offset the high C.G. caused by the mass in a top box because the saddlebags are at least as high as the C.G. on the bike and cannot be used to lower that C.G. What you can do though would be to mount all three bags and move any and all heavy materials out of the top box and into the saddlebags, then move all the light materials into the top box. This will shift the C.G. lower, all else being equal.
When I travel with a fair amount of weight on the bike, I always try to put things like tools in the very bottoms of both saddlebags and all the light clothes in the top box. I think this is about the best you can do distributing the weight. It also have the advantage that you really only need to get into the top box for virtually any daily or common needs on a trip.
Brian
Hi all, again! ;D
So, again, now that the new tire dillema is solved for this upcoming trip, I am thinking about the usual way I pack. See the picture attached. Typically, this is how I go. It's only 4 days, and I can pack enough underwear in there as shown.
I was thinking, this trunk (Kawasaki small) weights just as much, or a little more, than one saddle bag. However, it's mounted so high...
In your opinion, would the advantage of lower mounting position of two saddlebags overcome the disadvantage of their higher weight?
I have done this trip for the past 3 years with the trunk as shown, but was wondering if I should try the bags and if, despite their higher weight, if the bike would feel more nimble?
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It also depends on the speeds you like to attain while riding. There are stability and shimmy issues with top boxes at higher speeds. If you are riding two up it is not an issue, the passenger will usually jab you in the ribs hard before you reach those speeds. I do not use a top box so I have not experienced problems on this bike but some of my previous bikes anything over 110 mph would cause various issues. Packing gear on the passenger seat will improve the air flow off of your back and mitigate the problem somewhat.
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If I am following your question correctly, you cannot use the saddlebags to offset the high C.G. caused by the mass in a top box because the saddlebags are at least as high as the C.G. on the bike and cannot be used to lower that C.G. What you can do though would be to mount all three bags and move any and all heavy materials out of the top box and into the saddlebags, then move all the light materials into the top box. This will shift the C.G. lower, all else being equal.
When I travel with a fair amount of weight on the bike, I always try to put things like tools in the very bottoms of both saddlebags and all the light clothes in the top box. I think this is about the best you can do distributing the weight. It also have the advantage that you really only need to get into the top box for virtually any daily or common needs on a trip.
Brian
No, that was not quite what I meant.
This is the question, rephrased for clarity:
- I have, say, 15lbs of luggage.
- I can fit this 15lbs of luggage on either: trunk only, OR two saddlebags (of course, it is likely there will be a lot of room left over on the bags).
- The trunk weighs less than the two saddle bags. It weights maybe the equivalent of one saddlebag, plus a little bit. However, it mounts higher than the bags.
- Both saddlebags together weight quite more than the one trunk, but they mount lower.
Given the parameters above, what would handle best, in your opinion? The 15lbs spread over the two saddle bags and no trunk, OR the 15lbs in the trunk and no bags?
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might just be me, but my cases are always on. no top box but i have two tail bags i have never tried to install. ???
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I had my behemoth E55 litre top box loaded to the hilt, and still drug the pegs around on the edges of my PR3s with no issues when Rick Hall and I thrashed the Rocky Mtn Roads. Well, I had one issue, those roads with 2 mile cliffs and no guard rails scared the hell out of me, but Rick Hall advised "just don't look over" :o
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/X%20country%20trippin/20110706-DSC_1348.jpg)
And also drug pegs around high speed sweepers later that week in the CA area.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/X%20country%20trippin/20110711-DSC_1705.jpg)
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and forgot to mention the rear tire was PLUGGED. No matter how high/heavy you load the bike, you won't ride past the limits of the PR3s. Unless you lay it down or you're Valentino Rossi.
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Same as what Steve sez except with Shinkos :D
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OK, given a choice of using the saddlebags or a topbox to carry the same amount of weight, I would choose the saddlebags if the best possible handling was the goal. Especially because the same amount of material that will fit in a top box will not fill both saddlebags so the C.G. will be even lower. There will be some increased resistance to rotating the bike (entering and leaving a leaned condition) but not as much as if the same weight was placed much further away from the C.G. directly above that C.G.
But you knew that Haroldo from way back in dynamics, right? I mean sure you choose to waste your life tinkering around with electrons but you did take some useful classes (mechanical) along the way, right? Actually if you treated the acceleration as a fixed amount, you could really reduce it to a statics problem. Now for the humor lacking, that was a joke. But if you really take exception then you are right- EE's are <real> engineers, it is the ChE's that pray to the false gods. (http://zggtr.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif[img])http://zggtr.org/Smileys/default/ROTFLMAO.gif (http://zggtr.org/Smileys/default/ROTFLMAO.gif)[/img]
No, that was not quite what I meant.
This is the question, rephrased for clarity:
- I have, say, 15lbs of luggage.
- I can fit this 15lbs of luggage on either: trunk only, OR two saddlebags (of course, it is likely there will be a lot of room left over on the bags).
- The trunk weighs less than the two saddle bags. It weights maybe the equivalent of one saddlebag, plus a little bit. However, it mounts higher than the bags.
- Both saddlebags together weight quite more than the one trunk, but they mount lower.
Given the parameters above, what would handle best, in your opinion? The 15lbs spread over the two saddle bags and no trunk, OR the 15lbs in the trunk and no bags?
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drug the pegs around on the edges of my PR3s with no issues when Rick Hall and I thrashed the Rocky Mtn Roads.
Off topic but how much peg feeler do you have left? I have nothing on my left side and the right feeler is about 1/8th of an inch long. Until I worked my way down to the nub I could not get all the way to the edge of the PR2 (190/55). I had about an 1/8th inch chicken strip (on the right) and it took me a while to get enough cornering clearance to work the whole tire from edge to edge. There seems to be alot more rubber on the road while leaned over, of course this is just speculation FWIW.
back on topic.
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Off topic but how much peg feeler do you have left? I have nothing on my left side and the right feeler is about 1/8th of an inch long. Until I worked my way down to the nub I could not get all the way to the edge of the PR2 (190/55). I had about an 1/8th inch chicken strip (on the right) and it took me a while to get enough cornering clearance to work the whole tire from edge to edge. There seems to be alot more rubber on the road while leaned over, of course this is just speculation FWIW.
back on topic.
Mine aren't "that" bad! I let 'em flex up rather than keep my foot pressure on 'em. I should take 'em off, I don't understand why they're there :)
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Mine aren't "that" bad! I let 'em flex up rather than keep my foot pressure on 'em. I should take 'em off, I don't understand why they're there :)
I take pressure off the pegs too, but my ankles are not very flexible after two surgeries and countless injuries, so my boots end up wedging in between the peg and side of the bike to where there is no more clearance. It is just weird how I can run edge to edge on a 190/50 just warming up my tires on a straight stretch of road and have to work pretty hard to get to the edge on a 190/55. I guess the steep profile and limited cornering clearance on a C14 make it harder to wear this tire all the way to the edge.
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OK, given a choice of using the saddlebags or a topbox to carry the same amount of weight, I would choose the saddlebags if the best possible handling was the goal. Especially because the same amount of material that will fit in a top box will not fill both saddlebags so the C.G. will be even lower. There will be some increased resistance to rotating the bike (entering and leaving a leaned condition) but not as much as if the same weight was placed much further away from the C.G. directly above that C.G.
But you knew that Haroldo from way back in dynamics, right? I mean sure you choose to waste your life tinkering around with electrons but you did take some useful classes (mechanical) along the way, right? Actually if you treated the acceleration as a fixed amount, you could really reduce it to a statics problem. Now for the humor lacking, that was a joke. But if you really take exception then you are right- EE's are <real> engineers, it is the ChE's that pray to the false gods. (http://zggtr.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif[img])http://zggtr.org/Smileys/default/ROTFLMAO.gif (http://zggtr.org/Smileys/default/ROTFLMAO.gif)[/img]
Brian,
You know me too well, without knowing me ;D
Yes, my life wasn't completely wasted, as I did indeed take Statics, Dynamics, Strength of Materials, Thermodymics, and probably some other ME stuff I might be missing.
The problem is, like everything else I learned in school, I just don't know $hit anymore :o
It makes me want to puke when I think of all the abstract problems I used to work out on my field in school (digital signal processing, RF, etc), and then, out in the real world, I ended up working with motors, robots, and control systems, and that's all I know now, and nothing else.
So, now here I am, asking the forum if my 15lbs of underwear should be put in the trunk or in the bags. Had I know that years ago, I would have spent the college money in booze and hookers instead (wife, if you are reading this, I'm just kidding. You're bautiful. Hookers are gross.)
Anyway, back on topic... I'd like you to consider more details in your assessment of the situation. You are only mentioning the luggage weight when you advise that it would be better on the bags. Well, duh! I know that, even without my previous knowledge of Statics and Dynamics ;D
My question is taking into account the weight of the luggage (15lbs give or take) which is the same, regarless if bags or trunk is used, AND the weight of the actual container, which is trunk OR saddlebags, capiche?
So, in essence: what is best:
saddlebags plus 15lbs lower or 15lbs + trunk mounted higher?
Consider for your in depth calculations that the trunk weighs as much as one bag.
@everyone else "dragging pegs"
Dragging pegs doesn't mean you are going fast. It means you are leaning too much. Leaning too much is a symptom of bad body positining and bad lines through a corner...Just saying..beware of what you're braggin' about :P ...
Now, if you are all saying that your body position is optimal and perfect (meaning, your knees are on the ground), and your line is optimal and perfect (meaning, you are a professinal racer), and STILL are dragging pegs, then you are excused 8)
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@everyone else "dragging pegs"
Dragging pegs doesn't mean you are going fast. It means you are leaning too much. Leaning too much is a symptom of bad body positining and bad lines through a corner...Just saying..beware of what you're braggin' about :P ...
Now, if you are all saying that your body position is optimal and perfect (meaning, your knees are on the ground), and your line is optimal and perfect (meaning, you are a professinal racer), and STILL are dragging pegs, then you are excused 8)
I don't recall any bragging, if it came off that way then I apologize. And I know I am not the fastest around a corner, but I do like to move at a spirited pace and I use the "down and in" technique to increase cornering clearance, since trying to get my knees down without having leathers with pucks would be a quick way for me to tear up some perfectly good jeans (or whatever MC pants I have on). I also try to take the best line that I can if visibility permits, so please forgive me since I only have about 18 months of riding experience.
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I don't recall any bragging, if it came off that way then I apologize. And I know I am not the fastest around a corner, but I do like to move at a spirited pace and I use the "down and in" technique to increase cornering clearance, since trying to get my knees down without having leathers with pucks would be a quick way for me to tear up some perfectly good jeans (or whatever MC pants I have on). I also try to take the best line that I can if visibility permits, so please forgive me since I only have about 18 months of riding experience.
you are too kind, man. I was completely joking. I am guilty myself of bragging about dragging parts...sometimes unintentionally. Of course, the whole body positioning and corner lines thing are true, but I was just giving mainly SteveWFL a hard time, for humor sakes only. I was hoping the smiley faces would convey the tone, but it didn't. And plus, don't apologize if you are riding around dragging pegs! It's not a crime! 8)
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you are too kind, man. I was completely joking. I am guilty myself of bragging about dragging parts...sometimes unintentionally. Of course, the whole body positioning and corner lines thing are true, but I was just giving mainly SteveWFL a hard time, for humor sakes only. I was hoping the smiley faces would convey the tone, but it didn't. And plus, don't apologize if you are riding around dragging pegs! It's not a crime! 8)
I was apologizing for coming off as a cocky "young" rider (that is how I thought you took it). I don't drag pegs just to hear em' scrape, I look at it this way, I paid for my tires and I'll be danged if I don't try to wear them out from edge to edge. I'm not an adrenalin junkie (well maybe a little ;)) but instead I am a tightwad that likes to get the most I can, out of everything I buy. ;D
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I too am a tight wad........but I AM skeered! I have never gotten close to draggin' pegs. Maybe if I was riding with other folks, but I'm a loner at this point. :-\
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I agree with what Harold said about dragging pegs. I had to take may feelers off because I have peg lowerers. When I drag it is because I made a cornering booboo.
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I often run my trunk without sidebags because for some reason the bike "does" feel more light and nimble to me like that... (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/smiley_dunno.gif)
But I usually have much less than 15 lbs in the trunk, if I were going on a trip I would probably run the side bags just to have more available space to use for whatever, water etc.
Either way I don't think it would really make that big of difference IMO, the trunks not like a 100 lb passenger.
Have a fun trip Haroldo, oh and that looks like a fun corner in your original post. :thumbs:
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/IMG00413-20110713-1853.jpg)
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15lbs anywhere on a 670lb bike + 170lbs of rider ain't going to affect much of anything.
Physics. ???
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Haroldo, I did not even realize how much I missed our repartee. Too much fun. ;D
But to answer your question honestly, I just do not know. Too many variables really to make any kind of assessment in my opinion. My gut reaction is still that it would be better to place any appreciable mass in the saddlebags but that is just a guess. I do think that you could find out which is better quite quickly if you exaggerate the situation and try it both ways; take two pieces of 20 lb. ballast (anything including raw meat if you want), put them in the top box and go for a ride. After a bit, move each weight into one saddlebag and continue the ride; my bet is that the weight will 'feel' better on the bike in the saddlebags. At least this is not an embarrassing experiment like that 'tape a garbage bag over the exhaust' one was. ;D ;D
Now about your underwear: as I remember, you are from Brazil. I have seen photos of the folks on the beach at Rio de Janeiro. Assuming your (Brazilian) underwear is similar in design to your swimwear, as most societies' underwear is, then I have to say that I do not believe you have 15 lbs. of underwear. In fact, it would seem that no 10 Brazilians put together have had 15 lbs. of underwear in their entire collective lives. I believe you could put all of your underwear in the glove box and have room left for a garage door opener and a wallet. A big wallet. So your whole post is moot. <ROFLMAO three times>
Brian
Brian,
You know me too well, without knowing me ;D
Yes, my life wasn't completely wasted, as I did indeed take Statics, Dynamics, Strength of Materials, Thermodymics, and probably some other ME stuff I might be missing.
The problem is, like everything else I learned in school, I just don't know $hit anymore :o
It makes me want to puke when I think of all the abstract problems I used to work out on my field in school (digital signal processing, RF, etc), and then, out in the real world, I ended up working with motors, robots, and control systems, and that's all I know now, and nothing else.
So, now here I am, asking the forum if my 15lbs of underwear should be put in the trunk or in the bags. Had I know that years ago, I would have spent the college money in booze and hookers instead (wife, if you are reading this, I'm just kidding. You're bautiful. Hookers are gross.)
Anyway, back on topic... I'd like you to consider more details in your assessment of the situation. You are only mentioning the luggage weight when you advise that it would be better on the bags. Well, duh! I know that, even without my previous knowledge of Statics and Dynamics ;D
My question is taking into account the weight of the luggage (15lbs give or take) which is the same, regarless if bags or trunk is used, AND the weight of the actual container, which is trunk OR saddlebags, capiche?
So, in essence: what is best:
saddlebags plus 15lbs lower or 15lbs + trunk mounted higher?
Consider for your in depth calculations that the trunk weighs as much as one bag.
<snip>
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Now about your underwear: as I remember, you are from Brazil. I have seen photos of the folks on the beach at Rio de Janeiro. Assuming your (Brazilian) underwear is similar in design to your swimwear, as most societies' underwear is, then I have to say that I do not believe you have 15 lbs. of underwear. In fact, it would seem that no 10 Brazilians put together have had 15 lbs. of underwear in their entire collective lives. I believe you could put all of your underwear in the glove box and have room left for a garage door opener and a wallet. A big wallet. So your whole post is moot. <ROFLMAO three times>
Brian
:yikes:
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/kajshduiqywd8.jpg)
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you are too kind, man. I was completely joking. I am guilty myself of bragging about dragging parts...sometimes unintentionally. Of course, the whole body positioning and corner lines thing are true, but I was just giving mainly SteveWFL a hard time, for humor sakes only. I was hoping the smiley faces would convey the tone, but it didn't. And plus, don't apologize if you are riding around dragging pegs! It's not a crime! 8)
This is all good for 2 main reasons:
1) he deserves it
2) he's used to it
But I wasn't bragging on "me", its the bike's/tire's mad capabilites, not mine that allow for the handling (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/icononethumbup.gif)
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I was apologizing for coming off as a cocky "young" rider (that is how I thought you took it). I don't drag pegs just to hear em' scrape, I look at it this way, I paid for my tires and I'll be danged if I don't try to wear them out from edge to edge. I'm not an adrenalin junkie (well maybe a little ;)) but instead I am a tightwad that likes to get the most I can, out of everything I buy. ;D
Jeremy, I take yours as a very responsible, eco friendly, tree hugging, laudable attitude. In these times of saving our planet's resources (remember the 3 Rs: reuse, recycle, reduce) using the complete profile of your tire, from left to right, before changing them, is the way to go ;D No way you're bragging, man!
Now, Steve...
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I often run my trunk without sidebags because for some reason the bike "does" feel more light and nimble to me like that... (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/smiley_dunno.gif)
But I usually have much less than 15 lbs in the trunk, if I were going on a trip I would probably run the side bags just to have more available space to use for whatever, water etc.
Either way I don't think it would really make that big of difference IMO, the trunks not like a 100 lb passenger.
Have a fun trip Haroldo, oh and that looks like a fun corner in your original post. :thumbs:
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/IMG00413-20110713-1853.jpg)
Good looking motorcycle. I like black, but I avoid owning them. (show too much) But that is a nice looking motorcycle. That exhaust looks so much better than what comes on the Concours. I'm surprised that Kawasaki didn't do this on the Concours. The ZX14 has two pipes and it looks good.
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Haroldo, I did not even realize how much I missed our repartee. Too much fun. ;D
But to answer your question honestly, I just do not know. Too many variables really to make any kind of assessment in my opinion. My gut reaction is still that it would be better to place any appreciable mass in the saddlebags but that is just a guess. I do think that you could find out which is better quite quickly if you exaggerate the situation and try it both ways; take two pieces of 20 lb. ballast (anything including raw meat if you want), put them in the top box and go for a ride. After a bit, move each weight into one saddlebag and continue the ride; my bet is that the weight will 'feel' better on the bike in the saddlebags. At least this is not an embarrassing experiment like that 'tape a garbage bag over the exhaust' one was. ;D ;D
Now about your underwear: as I remember, you are from Brazil. I have seen photos of the folks on the beach at Rio de Janeiro. Assuming your (Brazilian) underwear is similar in design to your swimwear, as most societies' underwear is, then I have to say that I do not believe you have 15 lbs. of underwear. In fact, it would seem that no 10 Brazilians put together have had 15 lbs. of underwear in their entire collective lives. I believe you could put all of your underwear in the glove box and have room left for a garage door opener and a wallet. A big wallet. So your whole post is moot. <ROFLMAO three times>
Brian
I read this last night, and showed it to my wife because I just had to. We were rolling laughing. I can't begin to tell you how spot on you are on this!
I was going to post a picture of me in my natural habitat (i.e. hairy guy in speedos holding a beer at the beach in Brazil), but I thought that I might scar some people for life, and that image might get stuck in their minds forever, causing irreversible phsycological problems.
Touche, Brian! :rotflmao:
..
EDIT: I just changed my mind about the picture.
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MUST..........NOT.........LOOK.........AT.........PICTURE!...............ugh I did. :o
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I go on long trips with a T-bag attached to the passenger back rest and don't really notice it at all on the C14. I also have a DR650 that I do some adventure riding with camping gear. At first I piled everything on top and strapped it down (see pic). Since then I made panniers from large ammo cans and carry the same gear but put everything but the sleeping bag and pad in the panniers. Same weight but lower CG. In fact probably higher weight with the cans. That made all the difference in the world on how the bike handled especially off road. Far superior with the lower CG.
(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/sreinschmidt/259199098_photobucket_518_.jpg)
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ROFLMAO!
Too funny. But that photo isn't bad, I was really talking about those people wearing bathing suits that look like they were made from dental floss and a box of Band Aids.... Even that might be OK until you see them being worn by old, overweight people. It is a retina burning experience, and I am scaring myself just thinking about it.
;D
I am just glad we didn't ruin this thread. ::)
Seriously though, great to see you back again. Glad you are still riding that Kawi too.
Brian
I read this last night, and showed it to my wife because I just had to. We were rolling laughing. I can't begin to tell you how spot on you are on this!
I was going to post a picture of me in my natural habitat (i.e. hairy guy in speedos holding a beer at the beach in Brazil), but I thought that I might scar some people for life, and that image might get stuck in their minds forever, causing irreversible phsycological problems.
Touche, Brian! :rotflmao:
..
EDIT: I just changed my mind about the picture.
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I go on long trips with a T-bag attached to the passenger back rest and don't really notice it at all on the C14. I also have a DR650 that I do some adventure riding with camping gear. At first I piled everything on top and strapped it down (see pic). Since then I made panniers from large ammo cans and carry the same gear but put everything but the sleeping bag and pad in the panniers. Same weight but lower CG. In fact probably higher weight with the cans. That made all the difference in the world on how the bike handled especially off road. Far superior with the lower CG.
(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/sreinschmidt/259199098_photobucket_518_.jpg)
NICE!
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@OP...
On the street, top case vs. side bags is not an issue. You are thinking too hard on this. RIDE.
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That exhaust looks so much better than what comes on the Concours. I'm surprised that Kawasaki didn't do this on the Concours.
See, ZG, I didn't say a word!!! ;)
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and forgot to mention the rear tire was PLUGGED. No matter how high/heavy you load the bike, you won't ride past the limits of the PR3s. Unless you lay it down or you're Valentino Rossi.
I wonder what kind of tires that Valentino fella would recommend these days?
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See, ZG, I didn't say a word!!! ;)
:rotflmao: :thumbs: