Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: MrPepsi on July 19, 2011, 09:47:17 AM
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So checking out my battery the other day, and putting the door back on, I had the bolt crooked I think. Tried to finger tighten it, then realized the err of my ways, backed it out and tried to correct it. No go. I didn't want to do any more damage so I sinched it down at what I think was the correct angle, but I didn't want to force it all the way. Its only what, a half inch of threads in the nut that is welded to the frame. Can I even tap that out again? What to do.
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The dealership did this to me. I was not happy, but I was able to run a thread chaser through it and it's been fine since then. The threads don't look pretty, but I haven't had any problem threading the bolt in there.
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You used the same bolt after that?
Any idea what size thread chaser you used?
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I want to say that I found another bolt, but I really can't remember. As far as the chaser I'd have to be at home to check on the size. I'll take a look when I get there.
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I would appreciate answers to both and I'll keep an eye out for your reply.
Thanks bunches.
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Sears sells a kit to restore threads. Might not be a bad investment. I've heard using taps and dies aren't the best in renewing threads.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00942275000P?sid=comm_sears_productpg (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00942275000P?sid=comm_sears_productpg)
No doubt there are other kits out there as well.
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That's the exact one I have, but seeing as how they're all one big happy family now mine says Mac on it and I probably paid more because of that. I highly recommend having this kit--especially when working with fasteners that are harder than the material they're fastening to.
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http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00942275000P?sid=comm_sears_productpg (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00942275000P?sid=comm_sears_productpg)
Sweet, same price as their iPad.
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It is really not possible to fully restore mangled (technical term) threads. A cutting tap will simply cut new threads in whatever material is left and that leaves a very weak threaded hole. A forming tap (the 'thread restorers') will re-form the threads to a degree but some material will no doubt be lost again resulting in weak threads.
The better way to go is to have the hole resized and sleeved. You could do this yourself but given the expense of the tools (drill, tap and the actual sleeves) and considering there is a learning curve to use these sleeves, I would suggest finding someone who would do it for you. Larger motorcycle shops often do this as a service. Once a sleeve is in place, it will be stronger than it was originally and as the new threads will be either steel or stainless steel, odds are that you will not have any trouble cross- threading a screw again, at least not in that hole. The service should not be overly expensive. Make sure whoever does it cleans up any chips that end up in the frame though as that is part of the induction system and behind the air filter- any chips introduced in the frame will end up in the engine shortly.
Brian
So checking out my battery the other day, and putting the door back on, I had the bolt crooked I think. Tried to finger tighten it, then realized the err of my ways, backed it out and tried to correct it. No go. I didn't want to do any more damage so I sinched it down at what I think was the correct angle, but I didn't want to force it all the way. Its only what, a half inch of threads in the nut that is welded to the frame. Can I even tap that out again? What to do.
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Brian, is there anything you don't know?
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It is really not possible to fully restore mangled (technical term) threads. A cutting tap will simply cut new threads in whatever material is left and that leaves a very weak threaded hole. A forming tap (the 'thread restorers') will re-form the threads to a degree but some material will no doubt be lost again resulting in weak threads.
The better way to go is to have the hole resized and sleeved. You could do this yourself but given the expense of the tools (drill, tap and the actual sleeves) and considering there is a learning curve to use these sleeves, I would suggest finding someone who would do it for you. Larger motorcycle shops often do this as a service. Once a sleeve is in place, it will be stronger than it was originally and as the new threads will be either steel or stainless steel, odds are that you will not have any trouble cross- threading a screw again, at least not in that hole. The service should not be overly expensive. Make sure whoever does it cleans up any chips that end up in the frame though as that is part of the induction system and behind the air filter- any chips introduced in the frame will end up in the engine shortly.
Brian
I totally agree but that's a lot of work. I'd try the thread chaser first.
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While Brian's advice is probably the best, I would go with the thread chaser too. It doesn't sound like you bunged it (another technical term) too badly. Mine was pretty bad and I haven't had any problems with it. The bolt threaded it without complaint and tightened up. I've pulled it out many times and haven't been worried about threading it back in.
I believe Brian is referring to a Heli-Coil type fix. These things are great (but just the kit can be expensive), and it allows you to have a steel sleeve in the hole rather than just cutting threads back into an aluminum tang with a steel fastener.
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Yes I have used those in the past, but I'm not sure that's needed just yet.
I would like to use the thread chaser first.
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Yeah, as others said, I was recommending a Heli-coil or similar thread repair. They are permanent and even better than brand new threads in aluminum. Reforming the original thread may work but the threads won't be back to 100%. Of course there is nothing wrong with trying that first, especially if you use a torque wrench to make sure the bolt will come up to fill torque.
You can make a 'quasi' thread chaser out of the proper size bolt by grinding a gash down the length of the threads with a bench grinder or an angle grinder. Then dull the leading edge of the gash by using a file to take off the sharp edges of the gash. Be very careful to start the bolt in straight because you are going to be moving whatever is left of the threads; you absolutely do not want to force this bolt into the hole crooked. Coating the bolt with heavy oil or even better, grease will help the process and help to catch any broken threads. I still would recommend taking the tank off the bike, removing the throttle body covers and cleaning inside the frame when you are done.
Best of luck.
Brian
Yes I have used those in the past, but I'm not sure that's needed just yet.
I would like to use the thread chaser first.
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Thank you, Dietrich! ;)
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I still would recommend taking the tank off the bike, removing the throttle body covers and cleaning inside the frame when you are done.
Well crap, now you're just talking crazy talk.
Take the tank off this beast, yeah right.
That's what my favorite female owned moto shop is for. ;D
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If you are going to bring it to a shop.... and you are going to have them lift the tank and open the frame to clean in there after re-working that threaded hole.... why not just give them another $20 and have them fix the threaded hole correctly and forever with a thread insert?
I mean at some point we all end up working harder to get around something that just doing it. ;)
Brian
Well crap, now you're just talking crazy talk.
Take the tank off this beast, yeah right.
That's what my favorite female owned moto shop is for. ;D
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Totally, I will at some point have it repaired properly, however to just attempt to clean up the threads a bit, I plan to do that myself, but if you think I need to take off the tank after I do that, I'll have the cold beer waiting for you.
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I totally agree but that's a lot of work. I'd try the thread chaser first.
Yeah, I mean, it is a battery door... it is not some important safety-related bolt. The damn door has a ton of other bolts holding it on anyway.
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My battery door only has this one bolt.
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It is really not possible to fully restore mangled (technical term) threads. A cutting tap will simply cut new threads in whatever material is left and that leaves a very weak threaded hole. A forming tap (the 'thread restorers') will re-form the threads to a degree but some material will no doubt be lost again resulting in weak threads.
The better way to go is to have the hole resized and sleeved. You could do this yourself but given the expense of the tools (drill, tap and the actual sleeves) and considering there is a learning curve to use these sleeves, I would suggest finding someone who would do it for you. Larger motorcycle shops often do this as a service. Once a sleeve is in place, it will be stronger than it was originally and as the new threads will be either steel or stainless steel, odds are that you will not have any trouble cross- threading a screw again, at least not in that hole. The service should not be overly expensive. Make sure whoever does it cleans up any chips that end up in the frame though as that is part of the induction system and behind the air filter- any chips introduced in the frame will end up in the engine shortly.
Brian
To inject some reality into Brian's expert advice, which I would take if I had oodles of spare time . . . the thread in question simply holds a plastic plate in position. There's no stress on it. A simple rethreading should be more than adequate.
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Battery door only has one bolt? ??????? Do you mean the fairing cover? ???? The battery 'door' has four bolts and is a stressed member of the frame. The fairing cover over the battery 'door' only has one bolt and is just a piece of cosmetic plastic. I though we were talking about the aluminum, four- bolt containing battery 'door' (maybe batter access hatch is a better word). ??
If we are talking about that one bolt that holds the fairing cover in place.... by all means, clean up the hole and forge ahead. You OF COURSE do not have to clean inside the frame if it is the fairing cover bolt because that thing threads into the battery 'door' or hatch. The fairing cover is also not structural at all, whatsoever so who cares if the threads are a little.... off.
Let’s see- battery door or battery door fairing cover, either way it includes the word ‘battery’. As the battery is electrical, it is part of the electrical system. Going through the electrical system leads one into the ECU and guess what the ECU is attached to? Yep, the <k-word>! I knew it, this is a <k-word> problem and it only has three degrees of separation.
So which one are we talking about, the aluminum battery hatch or door with four bolts or the fairing cover, which is made out of plastic and only has one bolt (and is red in your case)?
Brian
My battery door only has this one bolt.
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Of course and certainly... if we are talking about the fairing cover instead of the "battery door". I thought he was talking about the cover, door or hatch that bolts onto the frame side and encloses the BATTERY, not a piece of fairing. The words "compound fracture of the leg" and "nick on my shin" are not interchangeable; one requires a band aid and the other requires a cast at best and surgery and sutchers at worst.
You could use duct tape to hold the fairing cover on without any repercussions.
Brian
To inject some reality into Brian's expert advice, which I would take if I had oodles of spare time . . . the thread in question simply holds a plastic plate in position. There's no stress on it. A simple rethreading should be more than adequate.
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Got me there, fairing cover over the battery door.
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Well in that case I guess I am glad I didn't venture into the tempering of the aluminum after being stress cracked. Strike everything I said.
Oh, problem with the FAIRING COVER that bolts onto the BATTERY HATHC? I would suggest lubing the bolt with a bit of grease and forcing it into and out of the <half stripped> hole (easy boys!) and form new threads. Perfecty adequate for the PROBLEM YOU HAVE.
::) :D
Brian
Got me there, fairing cover over the battery door.
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The battery 'door' has four bolts and is a stressed member of the frame.
Wait- is that really a stressed member? If so, that makes sense. When I was cursing at the design, I was thinking "DAMN- why the hell does it need all this unless it is part of the stress frame?? Nah, can't possibly be....."
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The frame is a box- section with a big hole cut in one side. That would ruin the stress resistance to racking or twisting through that section. Kawasaki put a cast aluminum hatch over the hole and used four fairly large fasteners to attach it, with one in each corner. It seems like a lot of design and materials for just a cover and it isn't even waterproof so I think it is a stressed member of the frame. Just my opinion but that is what it looks like to me. ??
Brian
Wait- is that really a stressed member? If so, that makes sense. When I was cursing at the design, I was thinking "DAMN- why the hell does it need all this unless it is part of the stress frame?? Nah, can't possibly be....."
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A Keenesert or Timesert will be better than a helicoil. But for that hole I would just use a thread chaser or a tap and run it through the hole to clean up the threads.
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that f%@#$&* cover bolt was crossthreaded when I got the bike, and was the first one to strip out.......ran a 1/4-20 tap into it, and it's now sporting an SAE bolt.......till I decide to helicoil all the other ones on the metal cover mating below the plastic valance.... and those need to be coiled also.....dealer cross threaded all those also.... :'(
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Glad to see my dealer wasn't the only moron that did this. I was pissed when I saw that. The monkey that did it continued to crank the bolt in there so hard that he rounded out the inside on the hex. You would've thought that he sensed there was a problem by that point, but nope. I wrote a nasty email to them. I recommended that the person that was responsible for doing this shouldn't be working on motorcycles anymore.
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Well crap, now you're just talking crazy talk.
Take the tank off this beast, yeah right.
That's what my favorite female owned moto shop is for. ;D
You don't really need to remove the tank to access the airbox covers. I just remoce the bolts and tilt the tank up on its rear end and support it with a football. I disconnect the overflow and vent at the rear but not the fuel line or electric connector.
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The frame is a box- section with a big hole cut in one side. That would ruin the stress resistance to racking or twisting through that section. Kawasaki put a cast aluminum hatch over the hole and used four fairly large fasteners to attach it, with one in each corner. It seems like a lot of design and materials for just a cover and it isn't even waterproof so I think it is a stressed member of the frame. Just my opinion but that is what it looks like to me. ??
Brian
I am sure Brian is right about the battery door being a stressed member. I think the throttle body hatches are also. They are cast aluminum, if they were just covers they would probably be plastic.
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Glad to see my dealer wasn't the only moron that did this. I was pissed when I saw that. The monkey that did it continued to crank the bolt in there so hard that he rounded out the inside on the hex. You would've thought that he sensed there was a problem by that point, but nope. I wrote a nasty email to them. I recommended that the person that was responsible for doing this shouldn't be working on motorcycles anymore.
Mine was munged also. I cleaned it up with the original size tap. It lookes to me as though the factor hole is not perpindicular.