Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: maxtog on November 17, 2024, 02:58:54 PM
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My normal safe total range is around 250mi from the usable part of the 6.1 gal tank. What portion is usable is, of course, debatable. Fuel mileage is around 42 to 48MPG, so about 45 on average. On fill-up, I always zero the A trip meter, and on entering reserve, I always set the B trip meter to zero (as near as feasible to the alert). And on reserve, I typically have a range of at least 45 miles.
But apparently not today.
I went on reserve at around 200 miles (I can't recall the exact number, but it was close, and that is typical). At 18 or something miles into reserve, I turned onto a highway and opened up the throttle and it kicked several times. Obviously I quickly let off the throttle. I thought it was a fluke. Nope. I drove non-spiritedly for a while and tried to accelerate a little more assertively and same thing. I was already into gas station seeking mode. I barely got to closest gas station at 232 miles total, was sputtering on hills or with even light acceleration. There, I added 5.3 gal. Problem disappeared immediately, as expected. No issue on the 15 spirited miles home.
This is a bit mysterious. I normally can go at least 45 miles on reserve without even worrying. Has never happened before. Since I have no explanation, I am just going to call it a fluke. I am glad I can still say "I have never run out of gas in my life", although this was about as close as it has come.
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If you have an inline fuel filter, this is a common symptom of it being partially blocked. As the head of gas decreases it struggles to push the gas through the filter fast enough. If you don't have an inline filter, may be worth removing the petcock and checking the strainer on that.
I have run out of gas and had to push the bike 2 miles before I could get it somewhere safe to park it, following which I walked a further mile uphill to a gas station. In my case it was my own fault as I had forgotten to switch back to "On" the last time I filled up. After that I changed my fill-up routine from every other day to every day since I commuted 120 miles per day, and I have not used reserve since that day. I used to hit Reserve between 220 and 230 miles every other day so I rarely got very deep into Reserve. These days I reset my only trip (it's an '89) and when that gets close to 200 miles I start looking for gas.
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The 1400 has a filter inside the fuel pump which needs occasional cleaning.
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The 1400 has a filter inside the fuel pump which needs occasional cleaning.
Yeah, I kinda haven't ever done that before. 2011, 64K miles.
Could that really be a thing? That it will struggle and go sputtering only when the tank is low? I would think the fuel pump would be way more powerful than the difference between a full and low tank weight.
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Yeah, I kinda haven't ever done that before. 2011, 64K miles.
Could that really be a thing? That it will struggle and go sputtering only when the tank is low? I would think the fuel pump would be way more powerful than the difference between a full and low tank weight.
Max, what are you calling reserve?
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Max, what are you calling reserve?
The point at which the low-fuel alert is triggered.
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My bad, I thought you were talking about a C10 with all the talk of Reserve.
On the C14 it is definitely the fuel filter in the pump, or more likely the pump itself, but change the filter first.
I had to do the filter on my C14 at around 70k miles and the old filter was very clogged.
Just changing the filter transformed my bike, especially when running on a low tank.
Yes, the difference between a pump with a clogged fuel filter and a pump with a clogged fuel filter AND 12" of head of fuel is not going to be much (0.7psi), but it makes a difference especially if that takes the fuel rail pressure below the regulated pressure.
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Damn. I guess I have to add that to my list of eventual "to-do's" :(
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Do you fuel up at the same station? I've seen differences between brands as to how far I can go. I prefer Exxon, Shell, Citgo...I guess all the top shelf gasolines should be good but there is the occasional fill up where the bike doesn't act right on starting or the tank mileage decreases.
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I almost always use Costco, and use the correct gas (high octane).
But, interestingly, that tank was one of the rare occasions where I went somewhere else because the lines at Costco were absolutely insane and I didn't have 20 minutes. And I ended up paying $5 more due to that.
But the alert happened at about 200 miles, which is pretty typical, so I am not sure it is MPG. Although I will admit I am not absolutely sure what the numbers were, because I didn't have any thought that something might have been different/wrong.
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I wouldn't do anything to the bike until you've gone through a few tanks from another station..
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Good advice. I will eventually update the thread with anything I learn.
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Good advice. I will eventually update the thread with anything I learn.
Run some Techron and/or Lucas injector cleaner thru it every 2,000 miles- I have 155k with no clogged fuel filters or stumbling, just sayin'.
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Run some Techron and/or Lucas injector cleaner thru it every 2,000 miles- I have 155k with no clogged fuel filters or stumbling, just sayin'.
I have used Techron on all my vehicles for decades. Typically when the idle is rough or inconsistent. Last use in the C14 was 05-25-2024 62,800mi, about 2,000 miles ago. Before that was at 56,447, 51,663, 39,965, 38,225, 33,000, and 14,801. Yep, I keep logs of everything :)
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An old hippie walking through the neighborhood gave me some good advice years ago... You may have some water in the tank as well so put in some of that stuff that will assist in getting the water out. I think Techron might have something like that in it but it's been awhile and I don't have a bottle to look at.
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Why push it to that point? Running low on fuel is not good for a few reasons. Why not just start filling up when you get to 195/200 miles?
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An old hippie walking through the neighborhood gave me some good advice years ago... You may have some water in the tank as well so put in some of that stuff that will assist in getting the water out. I think Techron might have something like that in it but it's been awhile and I don't have a bottle to look at.
The most common one I see is HEET.
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In the UK it’s Wynn’s Dry Fuel. I use it every spring to get rid of the winter condensation.
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Still don't think by my symptoms it is water, since no problems starting and only an issue that one time when fuel was low and after fill-up, the problem went away immediately. But it did jog my memory and I checked my log:
05-25-2024 62,800mi
Discovered the bike sat for two weeks with a full tank of gas that was not closed! Some had evaporated. At the station before going home, I pushed the cover down but got distracted and forgot to use the key and actually close it. Drove home that way and didn't notice until next trip out. I could smell the gas when I took the bike cover off. Added ½ bottle of Techron. Started and ran fine.
Didn't think anything of it after that. I suppose it couldn't hurt to use half a bottle (???) of ISO-HEET. Seems it is probably just pure Isopropyl alcohol.
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Max,
I believe somewhere on the forums, or in the Cog tech pages is a mod you can do to your gas cap so you don't need to use the key to close it.
You have to take it apart and remove some material from one of the pieces.
It's nice to be able to just open it with the key and then put the key right back and snap it closed when done filling.
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I believe somewhere on the forums, or in the Cog tech pages is a mod you can do to your gas cap so you don't need to use the key to close it.
Yep, I did that mod and posted detailed instructions (it was Fred Harmon's discovery). But when I replaced the cap with a new one, I didn't do it that time. I probably should have :)
http://zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.0
Photos were lost, so reposted them further down: http://zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.msg313558#msg313558
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And the mystery continues.
I saw IsoHeat at Walmart, so I bought it. Put in 1/2 bottle on next fill on 12-01-2024....
It did it again today! At 190 miles into the IsoHeat tank, I started noticing slight hesitation on hard acceleration. At 200 miles I hit actual fuel starvation issues and some light kicking on acceleration. At 211 miles it hit reserve/low fuel (which is about normal) but then even moderate acceleration would cause problems. Filled tank at 217 miles with 4.7 gal + remaining 1/2 bottle of IsoHeat (meaning there was still 1.4 gal in the tank). 46MPG, which is normal. Pulled out and problem was immediately and completely gone again.
This makes no sense.
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Pulled out and problem was immediately and completely gone again.........until fuel level gets low again.
Replace the fuel pump suction filter.
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I can recall having a similar issue and Freddy is right. Replace the filter or pump...wait a minute here.. I think I may have something on the shelf. I seem to recall rebuilding a pump some years back. I'll take a look and let you know..
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Does anyone know if the 2008 fuel pumps are interchangeable with the gen 2 bikes?
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Yes and yes - ZX14 too except for the first 2 years of the ZX production.
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Well, the problem was gradually getting worse. Starvation was starting to happen with even less mileage on a tank at high load/throttle (started at 200 miles, now noticeable at even 150 miles). So between that and the forks leaking, I FINALLY took it in to a local shop for service two days ago. They called this morning saying they sucked out gas to just half tank (which would be like 125 miles driven) and easily replicated/confirmed the problem exists and asked permission to put it on a dyno for more troubleshooting (apparently adding an hour labor to a yet unknown bill). So now I wait for news...
Sigh, tomorrow looks like PERFECT bike-riding weather.
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Max did you replace the pump filtet?
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Max did you replace the pump filtet?
I am not able to do the fork seals, and they starting leaking like crazy again, so I had to take the bike in. It seems they leak much worse when the weather is not cold. Last time I investigated with the shop, they said they were several WEEKS behind. So there was no sense leaving it with them. And then the weather changed to cold and the leaking stopped, and so I procrastinated again. I just threw the fuel starvation problem at them as well (what the hell) since they will have the bike and I would be without it, anyway.
They called and said their diagnosis after testing is that the fuel pump would not produce the correct pressure and has to be replaced (no mention of the "filter" pad being the issue). I authorized it, but the part will take "7 to 10 working days", so now I have to sit and wait weeks :(
My problem with this, is that even if the pump were defective, as we discussed before, it should not matter the level of fuel in the tank. And yet that greatly affects when the problem occurs. So this diagnosis/solution doesn't explain that behavior. But, I give up- they are the experts. I guess we shall see. Eventually....
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Experts? Money grabbers I'd say since they want you money to run it in their dyno.
The common experience of blocked suction screen is that it is worse as fuel level drops. This has been documented for 15 years or so.
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The problem that the shop has is that Kawasaki only sell the pump for the C14, not any of the sub-assemblies (filters, o-rings, screens, etc.).
All of those parts that we use in our pumps when we DIY are for other vehicles even if they do fit the C14.
It could be the screen, or it could be a weak pump motor, or seizing bearings in the motor, or any one of 50 different things.
As with most modern vehicles the "solution" is to replace the suspected failing part and if that fixes the problem, move on to the next job.
The air-con compressor on my car has stopped compressing and I KNOW that the cause of the fault is the electronics in the compressor, but nobody will look at that. They only want to replace the compressor at great expense to me. Pretty much nobody troubleshoots down to component level these days as it is mostly cheaper to replace the whole unit than to take the time (time is money!) to troubleshoot the actual cause.
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The problem that the shop has is that Kawasaki only sell the pump for the C14, not any of the sub-assemblies (filters, o-rings, screens, etc.).
While that is true, this independent shop (Precision) said it was the pump only and they offered a non-OEM which would be just the pump (disassemble the Kawasaki pump assembly and replace just the pump part). So it wasn't that they required me to replace it all. I opted for that, paying more to get the whole assembly.
All of those parts that we use in our pumps when we DIY are for other vehicles even if they do fit the C14.
It could be the screen, or it could be a weak pump motor, or seizing bearings in the motor, or any one of 50 different things.
As with most modern vehicles the "solution" is to replace the suspected failing part and if that fixes the problem, move on to the next job.
Can't argue there. It is the same with a lot of products now. They won't sell any sub-part, just "assemblies" and often they are outrageously expensive.
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Experts?
Compared to me, for sure
Money grabbers I'd say since they want you money to run it in their dyno.
Perhaps, but I ran it by my master mechanic friend and he said what they did wasn't unreasonable.
The common experience of blocked suction screen is that it is worse as fuel level drops. This has been documented for 15 years or so.
I agree that the screen/pad is the most common problem when there are fuel delivery issues (that or the gas cap vent malfunctioning, which is the first thing they checked). But nobody has explained to me a theory as to how the screen/pad can be the problem when the symptom is that the problem only occurs when the tank is more than half empty and gets worse as the level gets lower. The weight of the gas in the tank is insignificant compared to the amount of pressure the pump has to make. So if the screen is clogged, it should be clogged all the time, right?
Of course, as I said earlier, I don't know how it could be the pump in such situations, either.
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Head pressure varies with the height or depth of the liquid. But what do I know. :-\
Glad you got your bike fixed Max, go out and enjoy it. :)
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There is now a filter/o-ring kit available 99999-0521
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Glad to see that they finally added the C14 & ZX14 to the list for the filter/o-ring kit.
Since the same fuel pump is used for a LOT of different Kawi's they must be having a lot of people with bad pumps, but it may be that only the "gas guzzlers" have these issues.
It could be one of those combination things where a worn/weak pump combined with a part clogged filter or screen combined with a part blocked tank vent all together combine to reduce the pumps ability to supply enough fuel pressure. When fuel pressure drops below the threshold, most modern ECUs dial down the power to avoid a lean condition.
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Head pressure varies with the height or depth of the liquid. But what do I know. :-\
It does, but not by much. The head pressure might be around 0.33 psi at full tank and 0.11 at one third (when the issue starts)? But the pump has to produce 44 psi. Who knows, maybe the pump is ever so borderline in my case that a 0.22 psi loss (0.5%) matters?
Glad you got your bike fixed Max, go out and enjoy it. :)
It isn't fixed, it is sitting in a shop for weeks waiting for parts while the weather has been fantastic :(
But I am hopeful!
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There is now a filter/o-ring kit available 99999-0521
Miracles never cease!
But yikes, $63 on Partzilla for a little screen, 2 screws, and 3 o-rings. Beats $450 for an OEM "fuel pump [assembly]", if you are wanting just that non-aftermarket part.
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The same pump is used in many Suzuki models. Most of the parts are available individually.
http://www.dnrmotorcycles.com.au/partFinder/fiche/suzuki/2016/gsx1300ra/fig-172a-fuel-pump#partid-5018401
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They called and said their diagnosis after testing is that the fuel pump would not produce the correct pressure and has to be replaced (no mention of the "filter" pad being the issue). I authorized it, but the part will take "7 to 10 working days", so now I have to sit and wait weeks :(
My problem with this, is that even if the pump were defective, as we discussed before, it should not matter the level of fuel in the tank. And yet that greatly affects when the problem occurs. So this diagnosis/solution doesn't explain that behavior. But, I give up- they are the experts. I guess we shall see. Eventually....
And I finally got the bike back today (5/14) after work (65,758mi). $1445 for the diagnostics, fuel pump assembly replacement, and fork seals replaced.
I talked to the lead mechanic. He was absolutely baffled, just like all of us, as to the behavior of the bike and why the fuel level would matter at all. But it did- they confirmed it several times. Anyway, he assured me it is fixed. The trip home was a short one, but the fuel level was low, and I rolled on the throttle several times (where I could) with no problems. So hopefully that is the end of this saga. They gave me the old fuel pump assembly to take home.
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The trip home was a short one, but the fuel level was low, and I rolled on the throttle several times (where I could) with no problems. So hopefully that is the end of this saga.
I don't really know exactly how much fuel is in the tank, they said they added 2 gal and it is indicating 2 bars. I can't go by my trip meter, obviously, is was set from full before the service. It is probably in the range that would have caused some problems, before the service. I rode 50 miles last night and had zero issues. But it still didn't register low fuel warning (which it would have if there were 2 gal to start with and I put 55 miles on it after). Will will riding another 70 or so today, probably, but will have to fill it up first, so it will be a while before I am 100% certain. But I am about 99% sure.
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Will will riding another 70 or so today, probably, but will have to fill it up first, so it will be a while before I am 100% certain. But I am about 99% sure.
Ah, I forgot to finish the update. Yes, it seems it is completely fixed. In fact, it seems to perform better even when the tank isn't low. We will probably never know exactly what caused the freaky behavior, but I am just glad that she is back up to her old performance.
And not having to worry about the forks leaking randomly is also a huge relief. I can't believe I put up with that for so long. Very first leak was Jan 2018! I will try to pay more attention to keeping the fork tubes clean.