Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: dl1911 on June 01, 2023, 07:55:08 AM
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In preparation of taking a ride, I started my procedure for getting my Concours(2008) out of winter hibernation.
Fresh battery in the FOB, Bike on battery tender all winter.
I go out to start and I have nothing responding on the bike. Even the red blinking security light is out. I remove the battery and tucked in behind is a huge mouse nest!!! I thought I had my building secured from the little bastards but apparently I am wrong!
I removed the gigantic mess that was in there, checked battery voltage at 13.1 volts, reinstalled and still nothing.
Began to check fuses and all seem fine. I havent found any chewed wires as of yet but I havent pulled all the plastics yet.
If I am lucky enough to not find any chewed wires is there anything else I should look for that could be causing this problem?
Im fairly mechanically inclined and I have a factory service manual but if anyone has had a similar issue and had a fix any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Many Thanks to all!
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The blinking red light only blinks for 24hrs after you shut her off.
I assume when you press down the ignition switch nothing happens?
First check the fob battery is at more than 3.2V and is the correct way around.
If that doesn't work, try giving the ignition switch a whack with a rubber mallet?
There is a known issue with the ignition switch sticking.
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Boomer,
Thank you for the reply.
I have checked the FOB battery for voltage and orientation. Both are good.
As far as the KIPASS I have had issues with it in the past and installed the bypass cable thing with the fuse in it. Even employing that I am getting no response whatsoever from the electronics on the bike.
Everything seems as if there is no voltage coming from the battery but I have tried 2 different batteries with the same result. I thought maybe the main 30amp fuse was bad but it checked out okay as well.
I have not found any chewed wires yet but I am fearing something is amiss with that. I just didnt know if there was something I could check before pulling all the plastics off as that is a big job on these bikes.
Thank you and the search continues.
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Remove the ground wire from the frame and clean the connection. Check fuses.
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Remove the ground wire from the frame and clean the connection. Check fuses.
:thumbs: including the main behind the battery box
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Thanks for the comments so far! I have checked fuses even the main. I removed the ground and cleaned it and reinstalled.
Still nothing😪
Lookslike the plastics are coming off for more inspection. Has to be a chewed wire somewhere.
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So I got to spend a little time trying to figure out my non starting issue.
Went thru all the fuses again and all are fine. I checked to see if I have 12v to the ECU when the battery is hooked up and it shows good.
I havent found any chewed wires as of yet. I have pulled some of the plastics off.
When I push down on the key slowly I can hear the micro switch on the KiPass clicking so Im thinking it is not stuck?
Tried rapping on the side of the KiPass with no change.
Anyone have any ideas at all????
Please help.
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To rule out a stuck activation switch you should remove the left black cover below the left grip, look for the harness connectors inside a rubber boot, disconnect the grey connector, reconnect, then see if key is able to be turn ON.
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To rule out a stuck activation switch you should remove the left black cover below the left grip, look for the harness connectors inside a rubber boot, disconnect the grey connector, reconnect, then see if key is able to be turn ON.
He has Brian's KIPASS bypass installed and tried that.
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Even if there's no chewed wires, mouse urine is pretty corrosive. Could be down in any relay, fuse, junction, or connector. Just start at the battery and work your way up logically. I think I have a wiring diagram around here somewhere...
EDIT: found it and attached.
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Thanks guys,
Keep the ideas coming.
Big Red, I would agree with the urine being corrosive and it stinks to high heaven!
The wiring diagram you showed, is that the same one from the factory service manual?
Freddy, I do have one of Brian's bypass kits installed and I even tried removing it plugging and unplugging the factory harness. Still DOA.
I really appreciate the ideas guys!
I will figure it out. There is just sooo much on these bikes that is electrical......
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The wiring diagram you showed, is that the same one from the factory service manual?
Yup. The first gen manual, '08-'09.
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Did you check the kill switch?
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Question for the group.
Could it be possible that the solenoid in the activation process of the KiPass is either bad or stuck in the down position causing my issue?
OR, Could the micro switch on the activation lever of the KiPass be stuck or faulty and causing my problem of not getting anything to respond?
Thoughts??
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I suppose it's POSSIBLE, but your bypass should've ruled that out.
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Big Red,
I agree but if one of those two switches is stuck in the closed position Im thinking it might have cause a type of fault. In doing so Im wondering if the system shuts down to protect itself.
Or maybe one of those two switches has just simply gone bad?
Im not sure either way just trying ideas.
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Stupid question here...
Have you disconnected the battery, gone in the house to have a cold 1 or 2 then come back out.
In essence a reboot.
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Tweeter55
Yes the battery has been disconnected.
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Okay so to add to the drama. I removed the cover that covers the seloniod that unlocks the key on the right side of the KiPass unit.
When I manualy depress the seloniod I can turn on the key. In the run position I can turn the motor over and I have headlights. The motor cranks but I do not hear the fuel pump and the dash readout is still blank so Im assuming no spark?
This is the first life I have had since the beginning.
I am starting to suspect the plunger under the key is stuck in the down position.
The thing that puzzles me is why my bypass wont work?
Ideas?
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Just to clarify the name of parts - KIPASS is an ECU located under the seat. The ign switch (apart from having switches) it too has an ECU wherein the passive fobs reside - this ECU communicates with the KIPASS ECU.
I would think, given what you have described above, the problem is elsewhere. Could it have rodent damage?
I have a vague recollection of someone having a similar issue and the problem was a rare failed Fuel Injection ECU. KDS is needed to register a new/used FI ECU to the bike's brain. Just my thoughts. The early FI ECUs were all the same part number from memory.
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Freddy,
Im not ruling anything out at this time.
Rodent damage is a possibility but I have found anything yet.
Forgive my ignorance on the nomanclature but this the first issue I have had with this bike and I bought it new.
What is KDS?
Thank You
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Kawasaki Diagnostic System - version 3, which dealers are supposed to have and know how to use CORRECTLY - and a few owners have.
One of the nomenclature issues is that Kawasaki has 3 or 4 names for the same item on our bikes, depending on whether you're reading the Owner's manual, service manual, KDS instruction manual or spare parts manual.
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Freddy,
Is the KDS something that can be purchased somewhere?
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It can occasionally be found here or on eBay. But it's expensive.
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It's a dealer only kit but does come up on forums and ebay on rare occasions. It's now been superseded by K-TISC for H2 bikes with the later version of KIPASS.
https://www.ktisc.eu/k-tisc/legal/terms?back=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ktisc.eu%2Fk-tisc%2Fuser%2FcreateForm%3FexistingUser%3Dfalse%26inviteToken%3D%26prefill%3D%26termsAccepted%3Dtrue
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Well Saturday I have a friend that is a tech and pretty good with diagnosis so he is going to come over and help me see if we can figure out whats going on.
I will update once I figure out the fix.
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Well Saturdays diagnosis session didnt turn up anything.
Can anyone tell me what the result would be if the Micro switch on the left side of the KiPass housing is broken of stuck in the closed position?
In addition if that switch is stuck would the Bryon BiPass take care of the issue?
Is there anyone in or around Alliance, Ohio that would have the KDS that would help me of at the very least rent it to me?
Thanks all in advance!
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Brian's KIPASS Bypass removes the possibility of that switch being the cause of your issue.
Could still be rodent damage somewhere.
Connecting KDS to your bike will not necessarily show where the problem is. You may need to replace the Fuel Injection ECU as outlined in reply 19 to see if that fixes it.
This perhaps - check that the part number is the same.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254525768678?hash=item3b42eb03e6:g:JaoAAOSw2j5eWUe0&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0DaVbR20ZX19HmW8H1Orkt%2BvZBq5VgswNClzUBRcG%2FbusCkmusb%2BHXihTATBy7gMmlx0rVKIOno3nwDXMP2tob3wjR9EYCkxqAqrjXRnlivEq6F%2FGtvGCSqA%2Bi4xA91H%2BFGT4CieBRRfOnH%2Fx8E7JptUUjAzanshrmzNmnAWlvIjeiwLzEFxggXYvttqmWKfMnk7Ps24bn7QbF%2F2pAcnilcgQuo%2BSTKjTdT2fo2eDpxwQ9Yp%2BvUUWs%2BZcCfnlUkc08KooYBrKeVidX0IvixIckY%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9b8haKfYg
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Freddy,
If I was to replace the FI ECU does it need to be reflashed to operate on my bike?
I dont particularly like just throwing parts at a problem when I dont know the culprit of the problem if ya know what I mean.
Im not objective to replacing it but I need to find a way to see if the FI ECU is indeed bad.
Thank you for the ideas!! Keep em coming.
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If I was to replace the FI ECU does it need to be reflashed to operate on my bike? No, it needs to be registered to KIPASS using KDS or the bike will not start - mimicking the problem you already have.
As you're not getting any fault codes when you seemed to get the ignition to turn on, I know of no other way of checking for a faulty FI ECU, short of sending it off to a specialist.
I don't like to throw money/parts at a problem but in this case I would make an exception (given that the ebay item above is less than $100) in the absence of rodent damage, which to my mind, is highly probable given what you discovered behind the battery. I would remove the tank and some plastic to have a thorough look everywhere on the bike.
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You are going to have to study the wiring diagram (starts on page 630 in the service manual) and start checking continuity between connectors. Purchase a probe kit so you can measure without damaging the connector pins.
The mice have probably found a favorite place to gnaw.
https://www.amazon.com/Goupchn-Multimeter-Replaceable-Alligator-Electrical/dp/B09ZTSYXM2/ref=d_m_crc_dp_lf_d_t1_sccl_3_2/135-9159914-3799445?pd_rd_w=ggGHD&content-id=amzn1.sym.5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_p=5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_r=YE42RQ6NK1842W40SN4R&pd_rd_wg=EvXKP&pd_rd_r=40bad480-8608-4292-8d98-376db88de56f&pd_rd_i=B09ZTSYXM2&psc=1
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With the battery removed, pull the kipass bypass fuse, put your meter in continuity and place probes in the fuse holder, click the key down and hold it. Check reading. Release and check again. That should give you an indicator as to whether or not the microswitch is an issue at all and you can move on.
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Have you tried using either fob in passive mode?
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Big Red,
When you say passive mode you mean take the key out of the FOB and place it over the nub on the KiPass unit?
If so yes I have tried that with both fOBs.
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Yeah, that's what I meant.
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Since this is a recent thread on dead bikes...
I always have it on a tender. I went for a ride last Sunday morning for 2 hours with no issues. Today I needed to take the bike in for a yearly inspection and when I tried to start it, I pushed down, got the indicator on the dash to turn the knob, I did so and everything went blank and nothing does anything anymore.
I checked the battery in the fob and it seems to be very low so my wife will be buying a new battery today. I will also be removing and cleaning the different ground points and see if that fixes it.
This bike has been rock solid since I got it in 2010 so this was a shock to me this morning.
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BTW, I did remove the key and hold it over the protrusion for a few seconds and tried it again and nothing. My wife didn't go out and get me a new battery but I don't think that's it.
I did remove the main battery and there was corrosion on the positive battery terminal, but it wasn't bad and the battery was showing 13.5v. I cleaned things up and re-connected and no go.
I am thinking this has to be the KiPass system. Tomorrow I will see if I can work on it and take the plastic off to get to the relays and such. I have the PDF of the service manual, so I am looking at that for locations of everything.
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Bad or even questionable connections on this bike can do all sorts of wacky things. Also when you checked battery voltage was it under a load of some sort? Others on here can give you a better idea of what the range should be. Don’t be afraid to use the search function on here. I know it’s been discussed before. Good luck!
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My voltage check was under zero load since I have zero response from the bike. But point taken. It could be the battery.
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If you don't have a battery load tester, most garages will have one and will normally do a quick test for free if you ask nicely.
Failing that, you can test with a loose starter motor but you will get sparks when you complete the circuit and make 100% certain that the starter motor is bolted down as they kick like a mule.
I use car jump-leads and a C10 starter motor clamped in my bench vise.
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My voltage check was under zero load since I have zero response from the bike. But point taken. It could be the battery.
You *must* have some load on the battery to test it in any meaningful way (the multitester, itself, is almost zero load). Even a small load will do for a quick sanity check. Otherwise, you are just measuring "surface voltage." Just hook up a 12v incandescent lamp or something inline with your meter to test the voltage. If it drops much compared to no load, it is likely pretty dead. A true test requires a LOT of load (many dozens of amps over a significant amount of time, after being fully charged), but this simple test will tell you if it is enough to wake the bike up or not.
As others (and I) have said many times, the C14 is particularly picky about voltage (and good connections). A little too low and it will freak out, or do nothing at all.
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So I pulled the battery out again and found a 12v bulb and tried to get it to light up and realized that the positive terminal has some corrosion on it (which doesn't look horrible), which was not allowing a good contact. I used the multimeter probes and touched the top of the terminals again and got nothing. If I touched at the bottom of the terminal block (under the floating nut), it was fine.
I have a battery on order now, coming Sunday (Amazon was $46 and the local dealer was $130).
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BTW, I checked my records and the last time I replaced the battery was just over 6 years ago, so I am due.
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A load resistor that comes with some LED bulbs makes a good dummy load for a sanity check of your battery.
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So I pulled the battery out again and found a 12v bulb and tried to get it to light up and realized that the positive terminal has some corrosion on it (which doesn't look horrible), which was not allowing a good contact. I used the multimeter probes and touched the top of the terminals again and got nothing. If I touched at the bottom of the terminal block (under the floating nut), it was fine.
You didn't tell us the voltage when it did light up in series with the meter :) I am sure many of us are curious.
And yes, at 6 years, it is overdue for replacement, most likely. This is especially true if the battery ever sat for long in a low charge state. I have yet to have a battery last that long, even using a battery tender on it ALL the time it is not ridden.
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You didn't tell us the voltage when it did light up in series with the meter :) I am sure many of us are curious.
And yes, at 6 years, it is overdue for replacement, most likely. This is especially true if the battery ever sat for long in a low charge state. I have yet to have a battery last that long, even using a battery tender on it ALL the time it is not ridden.
It didn't light up because I could not get any voltage from the positive terminal where I connected it.
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Okay so yesterdays diagnosis was slightly more productive.
Does anyone think the actual ignition switch could be bad? I have battery voltage going to the KiPass housing and ignition switch but I have no voltage getting back to the main ECU or the KiPass ecu?
I can turn the motor over with the starter but I have no dash, fuel pump or ignition.
Ideas?
I also checked continuity between all the joing terminals and the main plug under the left fairing.
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I have not heard for a faulty ignition switch assembly (apart from stuck activation switch) in the 16 years I've had one and been on these forums.
Did you remove some plastic and thoroughly inspect for rodent damage?
See reply 27.
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Freddy,
I have removed all of the plastics from the dash rearward. I still havent found any rodent damage.
The next alternative I guess is to pull the front to get the ignition/KiPass housing.
This is really starting to get frustrating! As much as I love this motorcycle it has WAY to much electronic crap on it!
The search comtinues!!!
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Have you checked on top of the valve cover?
The ign swiitch ECU is NOT where KIPASS lives, which is the black box (ECU) under the seat with 1 harness connector.
I do not think that KIPASS is the problem.
Yours is a very rare issue. As I've said, if there is no rodent damage, try another fuel injection ECU as described earlier.
As for electronics - newer models & makes have LOTS more.
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My issue is solved. New battery is installed and it started right up. I have it on the charger now and will bring it in for it's annual inspection in a few days.
I hope dl1911 can get his figured out soon.
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LOL! I am very glad yours is fixed now and it was just the battery.
DL's issue might be a tad less straight-forward, unfortunately.
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Freddy,
Where is the fi ecu box located?
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There are 4 black boxes under the seat; one with 3 plugs is the Relay box; one with 2 plugs is the FI ECU; one with 1 plug which is the KIPASS ECU ; and one with no plug which is the tool box.
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Freddy,
Okay I was misunderstanding the nomenclature. I understood this box to be the main ecu.
If I replace it, it will have to be reflashed using the KDS system correct?
I am trying my best to avoid having to have to take this in to the dealer.
I dont have a lot of faith in the local Kawasaki dealers to get this fixed.
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If I replace it, it will have to be reflashed using the KDS system correct?
See reply 29.
Where are you located? Perhaps someone on the COG forum with KDS can help you out.
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Im in Alliance, Ohio
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Are you going to buy that ECU off ebay?
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I havent decided to buy anything just yet. Im still searching for the culprit before I start spending money.
If I need to replace the ecu I need to find someone able to do the re-register.
Figure in those costs.
The dealers around here are very high on their shop rates.
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l have asked on the COG forum if someone with KDS can help you, with a link to this thread.
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Thank you!!
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I thought I would give you an update on my electrical issue. I have diagnosed about everything you could imagine. Last night I was checking voltages at my fuse panels and low and behold fuse box #3 should have battery voltage on the 10amp "Screen" and "Talk Back" fuses. Mine didnt have anything!!!
So what I did was, made a jumper to go between those two terminals and then used a power probe to supply 12 volts. When I did that I got KiPass to engage the way it is supposed to, the LCD screen on the dash came to life, and the fuel pump ran!!! PROGRESS!!!!
So now the bike has to come almost completely down so I can trace the white power wire coming off the starter relay that provides power to fuse block #3 which in turn powers the three things I didnt have working.
I am assuming I have a chewed, broken wire or a loose splice connector as there are several on these bikes. I love my concours but damn do they have to make things complicated!!
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:banana
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Result! ;D
Sounds very much like Los Roedoros have been a chewing on yer wiring harness.
Seems to be a common-ish issue.
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According to the diagram, that white wire only goes to the regulator and the starter relay. If you have continuity between the regulator/rectifier and the relay, I would just run a single new wire from the starter relay to your fuse box.
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Big Red, yes that is a consideration but I want to trace the wire to inspect for rodent damage on anything else.
Its a lot of extra work but I want to do it right and only once.
Thank you for the idea though.
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Big Red, yes that is a consideration but I want to trace the wire to inspect for rodent damage on anything else.
Its a lot of extra work but I want to do it right and only once.
Thank you for the idea though.
Did she fire up for you? Or are you still tracing other problems? I agree that you ought to track down the area where the mouse damaged the white wire to check for other damage, but it would be nice to know you could at least get her running, too.
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Rubber Snake,
I havent had the chance to get back to working on it just yet.
I will report back as soon as I find more out.
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Okay Gents another update but still not the solution.
Inside the main wiring harness the runs down the left side of the bike I found a bad factory splice on the white power wire runni g to the rear ECUs. Once I repaired this section of wire everything came to life.
KiPass, fuel pump, and dash all working. Cranking the motor over and she still wont fire off. One thing I did notice that while cranking the red LED security light flashes. I dont know if it did that before or not?
Attempted to start 3 times. Cranks fine but no fire.
I walked out of the garage to take a leak and when I came back I had nothing again. Started trouble shooting again and one thing I found was I have power(red) wire going into the ignition module on the KiPass unit but I have no power on the (red/white) power coming out with the key one?
Could the ignition module located on the switch house have gone bad?
Does anyone know of a resource that knows the systems on these bikes that I can call and talk to?
This is becoming more than frustrating.
Thanks, Dave
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I am struck by how much white debris is inside that bundle, implying it has been getting wet and exposed to contaminates. You didn't say, but I assume there was one wire that broke. But the copper looks pretty good, so I would suspect it was mechanical failure (vibration, tugging, twisting, rubbing) there and not corroded-through. Could have been weakened due to corrosion and then broke when you manipulated it.
In any case, if you find something like that, it raises the odds that there is yet another issue, somewhere.
I can't speak to the non-starting and then going completely dead again. First part could be so many things, especially if it hasn't run in a long time (presumably at this point, coming close to a year now). Could also be the battery voltage dropped below acceptable. Second part could be that once the wiring relaxed again, another wiring issue asserted itself. Might also need to check battery voltage under load, and all the fuses yet again :(
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The Red LED should not flash while cranking. That would indicate that the imoboliser / Kipass is still activated. You need to get back to the better situation you had on Aug 1 somehow, then spray some starting fluid into the indate to check if any life.
It seems to me that there is more rodent damage to be found.
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So can anyone give me definitive answer to the following question?
IF I were to purchase the KiPass ECU, ignition switch unit to include the immobilizer, fobs, gas cap, and seat release from another bike would I be able to swap these components out without reprogramming using KDS?
Thanks in advance.
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Freddy,
I have had almost the entire wire harness exposed now and have found no chewed wires. The White power wire that I did find broken was corroded to the point that the strands in the wire just broken off. Could have been vibration or whatever but none the less there were three white wires(Power) being affected.
The issue now is appearing to be the immobilizer. If I check power going into the immobilzer I have battery voltage. With the ignition switch in the one position I have no power coming out to go to the KiPass ecu.
Im beginning to think it must be something in the immobilizer that has gone bad?
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So can anyone give me definitive answer to the following question?
IF I were to purchase the KiPass ECU, ignition switch unit to include the immobilizer, fobs, gas cap, and seat release from another bike would I be able to swap these components out without reprogramming using KDS?
Thanks in advance.
Yes.
To do a complete swap with no programming you would need:
Ignition switch
Key
Fob(s)
Kipass ecu
FI ecu
TPMS sensors
and locks for tank, seat and saddlebags.
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Wot she said^
TPMSsensors optional; Fuel Injection ECU essential - all from the one bike.
Other locks you already have the key for. ;D
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If it were my bike I'd replace the wiring harness before buying a complete and expensive set of electronics.
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dl - why don't you just replace the fuel ECI as previously suggested? The Kipass side of things seems to be functioning as it should from what you have described. Don't you have access to a dealer with KDS?
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Freddy,
The fuel ecu passes all tests according to the factory manual.
After I repaired the white wires in the harness I had everything working but still wouldnt start.
While cranking the security light is continuosly flashing.
One of the people above said that indicated that the immobilizer is still active preventing spark.
When I test the imobilizer I have power going in but nothing coming out.
Im going to attempt bypassing the imobilzer to see if I can get it to fire.
I have one dealer about 2 hours away that probably has KDS but they charge $120/hr and they wont touch the bike if it is partially torn apart(plastics and such).
I dont mind rrplacing parts but I want to know what to replace before I just throw money at it if that makes sense.
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Understood.
While cranking the security light is continuosly flashing.
One of the people above said that indicated that the immobilizer is still active preventing spark.
That was me. ;D
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Thank you for that explanation as it directed me to look at the imobilizor.
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I wish I could find someone that is very well versed on the systems in these bikes.
I would love to talk to such person to verify the way I think they work.
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If you're thinking that it works in such a way that it can be bypassed, you are going down the wrong road.
The kipass ecu uses 128 bit encryption and requires the correct code from the fob or the ignition key module. If it doesn't receive that it won't allow the fi ecu to function or the key to turn. The modules have two way communication and if any one part doesn't know the secret handshake none of it will work. That's why you would need a matching set to swap anything. Unless you have access to a KDS.
It's easy for me to say (given that I have all the parts and a KDS), but I'd still change the harness first. Or at least drape it over the bike in such a way that it can all be plugged in. Then you'd know if you have a big job, or a huge one.
The harness goes between the engine and frame in a way that requires partly dropping the motor to pull it through.
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Michelle,
I guess saying Im going to try to bypass the imobilizer was the wrong termonology.
What I have currently is battery voltage (red wire) going into the imobilizer. When the key is in the ON position I should have battery voltage (red/white wire) coming out of the imobilizer.
I do not have that voltage to commicate back to the ecu. What I want to do is apply a power source via battery voltage only on that wire to bypass that part of the imobilizer.
All other wires will still be attached so the communication aspect shoukd remain in tact.
At least this is my train of thought. Am I wrong?
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I'm still struggling with the terminology. Not your fault, even Kawasaki themselves can't get it straight.
Which is the part you are calling the immobiliser?
Tomorrow I will pull the parts out of a box and lay it out so we're both looking at the same thing.
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The immobilizer to my understanding is the part attached to the ignition that reads the FOB.
It is attached to the main ignition switch housing with 2 phillips screws. It has a bundle of wires that go into the bottom of it.
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Michelle,
This is the part Im calling the immobilizer.
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5 pages...epic Haroldo...
I feel for you.
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5 pages...epic Haroldo...
That could be understood as very hurtful. ha ha
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Ok. I've laid the wiring harness on the ground and only connected the key switch, the kipass and the speedo cluster.
The red/white wire that comes out of the steering lock (which you called the immobiliser) goes to the instrument cluster and to the kipass ecu. It does indeed contain 12 volts when the key is in the on position.
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Good job Daisy.
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Michelle,
Thank you for that! So would it be safe to assume since I do not have voltage out (red/white) wire that I have an issue with the ignition/immobilizor?
I am going to work on it again tomorrow after work and try getting power to that red/white wire to see if I get any life out of it.
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At this stage I think powering the red/white wire is a logical step.
Getting back to Freddy's theory that the FI ecu is the problem: I don't have an 08 ecu as I sold it some time back, but the dash will come on with the ecu completely missing. It just says FI error.
The dash also gets some power from somewhere else, as when I plugged it in the needles did their usual sweep. The keyswitch wasn't even connected at the time.
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Michelle,
At this point Im not ruling out anything. The FI ECU may in fact be bad. The odd thing is thru this whole thing I have gotten no codes on the display of any kind other than the security light flashing while the motor is cranking.
I dont want to spend money replacing things that may or may not be bad. If I could get the damn bike to communicate something to me as far as what is going on.
I absolutely love this motorcycle but damn it is starting to get very aggravating!
I will report back after tomorrows session of this continuing saga!
Thank you for all the help guys, it is much appreciated!
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That could be understood as very hurtful. ha ha
That's why I said the other sentence. Troubleshooting this kind of issue can be stressful for the OP. Of course I wish the best of luck in getting this resolved. Much thanks to you, Michelle and others for helping. You all get a get out of jail free card.
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So another update yet no result. In the process of all this testing I have found that one of the CAN wires is not sending a signal to the FI ecu.
First a question,
Can the FI ecu be replaced without KDS flashing? I read somewhere that there was a company remapping them and it was a plug and play type of thing?
I have decided to buy another wiring harness at least. But I think I would like to try Freddys advice and replace the FI ecu before I do that.
Everything is working now except I have no spark. The KiPass is working properly, the fuel pump runs, the motor cranks over, Im getting injector pulse when the motor cranks and it smells a little bit like gas after cranking.
I do not have power to the trigger wires going to the coils and I checked the CAN line that activates those trigger wires and I have nothing there.
So that tells me either I have another broken wire or the FI ecu is not sending a single to fire the coils.
Does my thought process sound right?
Thanks!
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Oh and the red security light still blinks during cranking but I have had zero codes on the dash display.
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The reflashing of the ecu is done with the bike completely functional. KIPASS knows nothing about engine management, only that the FI ECU returns the correct id. Changing the kipass brain, the ignition switch or the FI ecu requires KDS.
Try unplugging the FI ecu and turning on the bike. If that doesn't show an error on the dash, your problem is elsewhere.
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Michelle,
So just so I understand correctly. If I was to replace the FI ecu with one from a different bike it WOULD require KDS?
If I unplug the FI ecu and attempt to get a code will it harm anything else?
Many thanks
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To the first question. Yes. Which is why diagnosis by replacement isn't an option.
To the second. I don't think so.
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Michelle,
Is there anyway to bench test these ecu's?
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Michelle,
Is there anyway to bench test these ecu's?
If there is, that's way above my pay grade.
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I believe the folks who 'flash' the FI ecu for better performance, like SISF, Smokin in Oz and M Cox in Germany, buy an 'access key' from a mob in Qld Australia for $150 per unit. No doubt they can.
The other way is to fit your FI ecu to a same model bike and register it to that bike with KDS and see if it works.
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Thanks folks for the replies.
At this point I think I am going to replace the wiring harness and it that doesnt rectify my problem I believe I am done with it!
Getting access to KDS is problematic in my area with one exception of a dealer 2 hrs away. The other issue with them is they have 120/hr rate to work on it and they wont touch it if the bike is in anyway disassembled.
I just dont see investing 1/2 value of the bike in trying to fix it. By the time I buy replacement ecu's, ignition control units, fobs, gas cap and pay the dealer to make it all play nice together I might as well buy another damn bike!
I bought this bike new in 08 and have had 27,000 miles worth of enjoyment out of but damn am I aggrevated and mad! All of this problem happened while the bike was in storage over the winter!
Im going to step away from it for a bit to calm down. I will let you know what I decide to do or if I get it fixed.
Many thanks to all that have helped. I do truly appreciate it!
Dave
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Ensure you get a harness with the same part number.
All the best with it.
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UPDATE:
Well I have replaced the wire harness.
Everything appears to be working but still no start. It appears that the bike is not getting any spark and it is leading in the direction of a bad ecu.
I have also bench tested all of the sensors and everything passed. I even went so far as leaving the crank sensor unplugged to see if I could get a code on the dash! Good news is it did code and showed a crank sensor fault.
So I know the ecu is at least talking to the bikebut whatever triggers the coils isnt firing them. I cant find anything else wrong.
I have found another dealer somewhat close to me that has KDS and will run a dignostic on it for $216.00. He said it may or may not show the problem.
So I guess I get the diag and of ot shows a problem with the ecu it is replacement time.
Does anyone know if it is possible to reflash a used ecu to my bike using KDS? Dealer didnt know???? Said he will have to call Kawasaki???
On a side note: pulling the main wiring harness is a challenge and requires the engine to dropped down from the frame. Not a fun job!!
Just PSA
The saga continues.
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Before getting a different ECU, check to see if all the pins in the connectors are all the way out in the position they should be in.
I thought I remembered from loooong ago that someone had a problem with their bike and that's what it turned out to be.
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Good job on replacing the harness dl. Thanks for the update.
As for fitting a used ECU (with the same part number) see reply 29. But do as T/Joe suggests.
$216 is a rip off. It would take no more than a half hour from removing the seat to refitting it. KDS may not show a problem as the engine needs to be running. Registering another FI ECU is done before the engine is started. The steps in the KDS manual to do so are simple.
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Freddy,
While I agree $216 is a bit much to plug in a computer, Im at the mercy of the people with the KDS. The other dealer was $240!
Im going to call Ivans Performance today to see if he can offer any insight to my problem.
While I love this motorcycle, I an very disappointed in Kawasaki. They made this bike so overly complicated and then offer very little support.
The one dealer I spoke to even said he wasnt sure he could even get a new ECU if I needed one!
Very frustrating!!
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A used ECU of same part number will do. That one in reply 27 seems to be still available.
Everything is complicated these days, some more so than others. I would put these bikes towards the lower end. Much confusion comes from misunderstanding but you've done well so far, especially with the harness.
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While I agree $216 is a bit much to plug in a computer, Im at the mercy of the people with the KDS. The other dealer was $240!
My dealer didn't know either, but they said they'd try. I bought a new bike and wanted my old flashed computer moved over. $100 for half an hour labor. It did take some talking to get them to do it. They said the ABS vs non ABS ECUs were different. I said, "I have both in my hands and they're the same part numbers, even." After everything was said and done, I now have two working ECUs. Was worth it for $100. Dunno it would've been for north of $200.
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I have a 2008/2009 ECU with a flash on it if you want it. $100
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Freebird65,
Thank you for the offer but to my understanding the ecu will have to be married to the other components of my bike so it will work.
In doing that the KDS equipment will put the ecu back to factory specs. The way it was explained to me was I have to have a working ecu that is already married to my bike before I can begin any type of reflashing.
Thank you for the offer though
Dave
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Dave
You've been informed incorrectly. Reflashing is not at all related to the KDS operation. I sold a flashed ecu to a guy in Western Australia and Freddy installed it for him. No issues.
Again, KDS can't even tell if the ecu is flashed. All you need to do is install it on the bike and get someone with KDS to tell the bike it is now married to a new ecu.
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Michelle,
I wish I would have been told correctly. At the time the offer was made I had already purchased a salvaged ecu because I was under the impression that I needed a stock ecu to connect to the KDS.
I am currently waiting for the coil harness, injector harness, and sensor harness. Once these arrive I will have replaced all of the wiring harnesses.
I am praying the bike will fire off. Unfortunately I'm not very optimistic.
I'm still very baffled as to how or why the ecu could have gone bad just sitting in storage.
I should have all the pieces In hand before the weekend so I will report back with what turns up if anything.
Thank you one and all for sticking with me thru all of this.
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Well another unsuccessful update,
The wiring harness have all completely been replaced. Everything on the bike seems to working normally but it still will not start. The only thing that is still curious to me is the security light is still flashing while the motor is cranking over. Can anyone tell me if this is normal?
Im seriously leaning to the fact that SOMEHOW the FI ECU has gone bad. I really wish there was a way to test it!
I have purchased a salvaged ECU, so Im guessing the next logical step is going to be taking it to a dealer to see if they can marry my new ECU to my bike.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Many Thanks!
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The red security light should go off when the ign key is turned on.
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If the red light is flashing then the Immobiliser is still active and will prevent ignition.
Are you 100% certain that the ignition switch, ECU, and KIPASS module are all programmed to each other?
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Boomer,
I bought the bike new in 2009 so I am the original owner.
The immobilizer, ecu and KiPasd ecu are all the original pieces.
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Freddy,
The security light goes off when the ignition switch is turned on but when I hit the starter button the light flashes while the motor is turning over.
Is there anything in the factory manual that would tell me what the security light flashing means? I haven't been able to find anything.
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Not sure if you tired it but have you attempted the passive key to start?
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dbird29
Yes I have attempted a passive key start.
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dl, it's 'interesting' that the red is behaving like that.
I don't have access to the FSM or Owners manual at the moment but if the red light is flashing the immobiliser is active.
As we know, the red light will stop flashing after 24 hrs when the bike is parked.
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Freddy,
While I agree with your statement I am curious that if the immobilizer is still active would the KiPass function normally allowing the ignition switch to operate normally? The micro switch turns the dash on and activates the selonoid to turn the switch. If the immobilizer was still active wouldn't it prevent this from happening?
It also sends power to the ECU and allows the motor to crank.
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l don't know the answer. The immobiliser/red light is controlled by the KIPASS ECU to my understanding, whereas the fuel system, including spark and fuel pump, is controlled by the Fl ECU. The symptoms your bike displays don't make sense to me - but it is what it is. Consequently, it will be a trial and error thing to fix, unless a more knowledgeable person has a better way forward, perhaps Michelle. I'd replace the Fl ECU firstly.
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The biggest problem here is having the KDS at hand and the bike half a world away. :(
Dave,
To refresh my understanding, you now have the kipass working normally? You can depress the key and turn on the ignition using either the fob or the passive like you could before you put it to bed for winter? Without bypassing the spring.
You are at a crank no start situation which you believe is no spark. How are you checking for spark?
Meantime I'll have another look through the KDS manual and see if we can work out the flashing security light.
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Michelle,
Yes the KiPass is working the way it should. Press the key down and the micro switch activates, turns the dash on and activates the selonoid releasing the key. At that point the fuel pump runs and the motor will crank over.
When the motor cranks, I put a stethoscope on the injectors to listen for pulse and they are pulsing. Also if you put your nose to the exhaust you can smell gas so I believe the fuel system is working.
I tested the ignition by checking for battery voltage at each coil. I have battery voltage at each one but I do not have the triggering impulse to fire the coil. I initially though maybe the crank trigger wasnt working but after testing that I was proven wrong. Also when I left the crank trigger unhooked and turned the motor over it showed a fault on the dash. As soon as I plugged it back in the fault code went away.
This is telling me that the bike is communicating with the ECU on some systems?
The only thing that seems off is the security light flashing while the bike is cranking. As soon as I come off the starter switch the security light goes out. I dont remember it ever doing that before but the bike always started so maybe I just never noticed it?
Aside from the above I am at a total loss.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Dave
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Maybe back probe the connector at the ECU for the coils? If you've got a reasonably responsive meter or better yet a pocket oscilloscope, you should be able to see the triggering. If the ECU isn't controlling the coils, it's possible the driver inside died.
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Big Red,
I dont know that the meter I have is responsive enough to pick up that signal. It is a Fluke Automotive Unit.
Im not objective to buying a pocket oscilloscope but I have no idea on how to use one. Is it a complicated process?
I like this idea as it is testing the actual ECU.
Thanks, Dave
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Some Fluke automotive meters can do pulse width and duty cycle. That would be enough to check the ECU output. If you do want a pocket DSO, they're pretty easy to learn to get waveforms to display. Here's a cheapo model. https://a.co/d/61eNX6I
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Big Red,
Thanks I will look into that.
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KISS
What would you have done in years past? Put a plug in the coil cap and place it appropriately so that you can see if the plug is firing.
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That o-scope should work on seeing if the ECU is receiving the trigger signal and pulling the coil and watching the plug for spark is a great idae. You seem real close to a solution.
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dbird29,
I have no reason to believe that the ECU is not getting the trigger signal as the both the cam and crank sensors checked out. However I believe that possibly the ECU is not sending the signal to the coils. If that makes sense?
Info going in but not coming back out.
I have been warned about pulling and holding a plug to see if there is spark due to the fact that ECU electronics are very sensitive and if while holding a plug I lost and then gained contact the interruption could cause damage to the ECU?
I am almost positive that there is no spark happening at all because the bike make zero effort to start or pop or anything.
Keep the ideas coming guys I appreciate it very much.
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You can pull a coil, poke another plug into it, earth it and see what you get.
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Freddy,
I do not have much of an update because I parked the project for winter storage. I am currently looking for a dealer in my area that will flash a replacement ECU.
Dave
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Too all!
Im still needing your help.
I finally found a dealer that would work on my 2008 Concours after alll the trouble I have had. Read these previous posts if you dont remember.
Anyhow I just spoke to the dealer and they said they pulled two codes from the ECU.
Code 79
and
Code 1526
Can anyone tell me what these codes mean? or point me in a direction of finding out this information?
As always many thanks!!
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Sorry, but can't the dealer tell you what the codes mean?
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Well you would think yes but they didnt want to divulge that for some reason.
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Tell them you won't divulge any money. I looked through my service manual and couldn't find codes, other than the self test ones.
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Yes I looked thru my FSM as well and couldn't find anything hence the reason for asking here.
I'm going to call them back today and press a little harder for the answer.
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As you would have seen in the FSN section 3, fault codes have just 2 digits. 79 does not exist and 1526 - well, they made that up. The codes are displayed on the bike's screen with the button pressing sequence, as you would've read.
KDS lists faults like the button pressing thing does - but it also shows how many times it was logged. What you've been told doesn't 'add up.'
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So I just got off the phone with the dealer yet again. They tell me that the Kawasaki Rep was there and he told them that he recommends the wiring harness be replace and all sensors checked.
I explained to them when I dropped off the bike that I had replaced the wiring harness and tested all of the sensors! Why cant these freaking people just do what was asked of them?
When I dropped the bike off, I also provided them with a replacement ECU and said "run a diag and if nothing comes up just re-flash this replacement ECU to my bike".
Why in the hell would I pay them to replace the wiring harness that I just replaced and pay them to test everything after I just did all that?
I think it is absolutely horrible that Kawasaki wont work with me on this and just do what I asked OR make the KDS software available affordably so I can do it myself.
GGGRRRRRRR I am really frustrated right now!
ANY SUGGESTIONS ARE WELCOME AT THIS POINT!
I dont want to loose my bike but if I cant get it fixed I will be forced to part it out.
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As you would have seen in the FSN section 3, fault codes have just 2 digits. 79 does not exist and 1526 - well, they made that up. The codes are displayed on the bike's screen with the button pressing sequence, as you would've read.
KDS lists faults like the button pressing thing does - but it also shows how many times it was logged. What you've been told doesn't 'add up.'
Those are self diagnostic codes. KDS pulls codes like the ones he posted. Nothin nefarious or made up.
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PH14,
When I was on the phone earlier I asked again what those codes were for and the service guy said he would talk to the tech to get the definitions for me.
Im just growing tired of them searching for a problem in things I have already proven are good.
If the codes they gave me are ECU related then I just want them to re-flash my replacement ECU. I dont understand why they are being so hesitant unless they truly dont know how to do it.
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unless they truly dont know how to do it.
I suspect that might be part the issue right there.
The C14 doesn't break easily, but for some things it is also not an easy bike to fix. Many dealers/dealer mechanics have never worked on one before because they are not common. They are more likely to have dealt with a ZX14, which is very similar, but even that is rare. I bet they service hundreds of times as many other model bikes as they do C14+ZX14 combined. And even then, it is probably just for "normal" stuff like inspections, tires, brakes, forks, and valves.
We have had many stories about dealers who actually had one on the floor for sale and apparently NOBODY knew what it was, how to start it, what advantages it has over other models, etc. And this after many years of it being available. Insane.
Now, I am not saying ALL dealers are like that. Some dealers are probably sharp as can be. But they are all certainly not remotely on the same level as each other.
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Those are self diagnostic codes. KDS pulls codes like the ones he posted. Nothing nefarious or made up.
I beg to differ. I have KDS. I have never seen such codes. The KDS user manual makes no mention of such codes. It displays faults in text, not code numbers.
Here is the diagnostics page.
(https://i.imgur.com/D6JmIAF.jpg)
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I beg to differ. I have KDS. I have never seen such codes. The KDS user manual makes no mention of such codes. It displays faults in text, not code numbers.
Here is the diagnostics page.
(https://i.imgur.com/D6JmIAF.jpg)
Thanks for posting that. I stand corrected.
I have seen regular fault codes from Kawasaki though. There are some charts for other bikes that show the self check codes along with a corresponding code. In fact, my Ural shows self diagnosis codes, but I see different ones when I hook it to OBDWiz. They probably have a different computer they pull codes with. Evidently not from KDS though, based on your post. I am not ready to say they are making them up, but they are being disingenuous at best.
Whatever the case, for them to be secretive about the codes would lead me to not use that dealer for service.
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Whatever the case, for them to be secretive about the codes would lead me to not use that dealer for service. Agreed.
The OP goes there asking them to do the simple task of registering a different FI ECU to the bike and has to deal with this crap!!! :pukeface:
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Well I think I have made up my mind and I think I am just going to go get the bike from the dealer.
I am not going to sink hundreds of dollars into them re-checking everything I have already checked.
I just want the replacement ECU registered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If anyone has a KDS they would be willing to sell or rent to me please let me know. This is going to be my last ditch effort.
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Where are you located dl?
I'm on the other side of the world but there will be others closer. :)
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I'm on the other side of the world but there will be others closer. :)
I think I analyzed it once and determined that Australia is pretty much the absolute furthest major land mass away from the mainland USA.
So, literally, ANYWHERE would be closer :)
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:rotflmao: and I'm on the west coast. ;D
I think Antarctica may be further, but I haven't checked. :chugbeer:
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I am located in NE Ohio. I am about 1 1/2 hrs south of Cleveland.
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I sent you a PM.
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I am located in NE Ohio. I am about 1 1/2 hrs south of Cleveland.
I'm not far from you, but unfortunately I don't have the software. Now I'm curious as to which dealer it is. ??? I live just East of Pittsburgh.
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I'm not far from you, but unfortunately I don't have the software. Now I'm curious as to which dealer it is. ??? I live just East of Pittsburgh.
Do you have the KDS hardware?
dl - have your heard from Bud?
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PH14,
The dealer is State8 in Cuyahoga Falls. If I can find someone that has the hardware I would be willing and happy to buy the software. It only runs about $60 and is available. I found all the part numbers for everything I need but it all totals about $1500 bucks. I just can't justify spending that much if I'm not positive it's going to fix my problem.
Freddy, I have not heard from Bud no.
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I have not heard from Bud. Apparently he hasn't seen the PM so I added a post to a thread he was on yesterday asking him to check his PMs.
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Do you have the KDS hardware?
dl - have your heard from Bud?
No, I do not, and no I haven't. I wish did so I could help.
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Freddy,
I checked my distance from Flatwoods, WV. It's about 4-5 hour trip one way so I'm sure Bud may not want to travel that far.
-
I just had a reply from Bud - he's unable to do the detour due to time constraints. I've asked him if he can do it if you take the bike to Flatwoods.
-
Feddy,
Thank you so much for contacting Bud. I can understand his hesitation on making the trip.
Unfortunately I cannot get to Flatwoods either because of work and I still dont have bike back from the dealer. Im going to call them today and tell them that I am done trying with them and go get it back.
Im going to keep searching the area to try and find someone that is willing and able to to do the reregister.
Thank you so much for the effort. Let me know if you hear of any other options.
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The FI ECU registration process is very simple. Does the dealer actually have KDS? I could give you the relevant pages of the KDS manual for him to follow.
Failing that you need to find another dealer or someone closer with KDS.
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Feddy,
They are a very large Kawasaki Dealer so Im almost positive they have the KDS software. I honestly do not know the reason they are being so hesitant in just doing what I asked of them.
Either they are not relaying the information I provided to the tech or they are trying to run up the hours on the diagnostics.
I will advise after I speak to them today.
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So just got off the phone with the dealer yet again.
He explained the "Kawasaki tech people said yet again it needs the wiring harness changed and unfortunately its no longer available"!!!! And even if it was available the cost would exceed the value of the machine!!!
I told him for the 4th time I have spent two years with this bike and educated myself on it. I already changed the wiring harness and the bike exhibited the exact same condition as before I changed it! All functions operating but no start!!
I then explained ALL I WANT DONE IS THE REPLACEMENT ECU REGISTERED. I told him please just do this if the bike doesnt run no harm no foul and I will come and get it.
I even went so far as to tell him where the information procedure for doing it is in the operating manual for the KDS.
This is like pulling teeth and I just dont understand why they are making it so damn difficult.
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Try putting this to Kawasaki USA.
They may turn out to be on your side.
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tsb's suggestion is worth a try.
As has been said, the C14 was the only Kaw bike with Kipass, so dealers don't get much practice with KDS, tho there are a dozen other models which KDS can be used on.
Section 3: Cable Connection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
3.1 Required Tools . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
3.2 Connecting PC to ECU . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
3.2.1 ZG1400A/B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
3.2.2 ZX1200-A/B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
3.2.3 VN1500-P . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
3.2.4 VN1600, VN2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
3.2.5 ZX636, ZX600, ZR1000, ZR750, ZX1000-C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
3.2.6 JT1200B/D, JT1500A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
3.2.7 VN900B/D . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
3.2.8 ER650, EX650 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
3.2.9 ZX1400 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
3.2.10 KLE650 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
3.2.11 ’07 ZR750/ZR1000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
3.2.12 JT1500B/JT1500C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
3.2.13 KSF450B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
3.2.14 VN1500-J/LIN/R
The newer H2 SX SE is the only other Kaw to have Kipass (version 2). God help the owners when it comes time to diagnose and fix them, coz the dealer won't. They also need the newer version of KDS, called K-TISC, to do it. :banghead:
Kawasaki now actually allows non-dealers to register with them so that they can access K-TISC for diagnostic purposes. But all this is no help to dl.
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Tynesidebob,
Thank you for the comment and suggestion.
The only issue I have with going to Kawasaki USA is Im not really sure what to complain about.
Yes the dealer is being a pain in the rear getting them to do what I asked but is it because they dont know how or are they just running up labor hours for the diag.
Should Kawasaki make the KDS more affordable and available? Absolutely but I would imagine there is a huge legal hurdle to overcome in that arena. If they would make it available there would be more smaller non dealer shops attracted to working on these bikes. I realize the C14 doesnt break often but when it does it becomes a 600 lb brick.
I really enjoy this motorcycle like the rest of us but if I cannot get this issue resolved I will be forced to part it out or sell it at a loss. If this happens I will NEVER own another Kawasaki product for as long as I live that I can promise.
All Im trying to do is eliminate one more thing by registering the replacement ECU. It is just very frustrating that it has to be this difficult.
One of the hurdles I have had to overcome is a lot of the dealers I called about fixing this issue wouldnt even touch the bike because they said it was too old being a 2008! This is a shitty response from Kawasaki to say the least. If its too old then make the KDS available and affordable so guys can continue to enjoy these bikes!!
Im sorry guys Im done ranting. This has just been very frustrating. Thank you for all the help so far.
The saga continues.
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Understood.
I own an early Can-Am Spyder and am on SpyderLovers forum. The 10 year old issue is now common there and Spyders are much more prone to failure that the C14.
Is there another dealer you can take it to after you ask if they can actually do that task?
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Freddy,
Well Im not sure on any dealer even remotely local to me. The dealer that has it now only took it because thats where I bought it new.
The biggest issue with most dealers is it is simply too old or they dont have KDS.
I have even contacted several performance shops and they all tell me the same thing. They can flash the ECU for performance but not do the registration.
I havent heard anything from the dealer where it is now. They have until Monday. That will be 5 weeks they have had it.
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Well.............Im freaking steamed!
So I called the dealer yesterday to get any updates if there was any and there was not other than oh that tech is swamped. The service writer tells me he is going to go talk to the tech directly and he will call me back by end of business. NO CALL!!!!!
I call today and of course the service writer I have been dealing with is "busy with another customer" so I say I'll wait. A few minutes pass and a different guy gets on the phone and proceeds to tell me that "They tried to register the new ECU and it wont pair to their software!! To say the very least I am pissed and I told this guy to have the original service writer call me ASAP with the bill total and Im coming to get it!!
So, they have had the bike 5 weeks, God knows how much of a bill Im going to have! To get NOTHING, NOTHING!!
I will NEVER own another Kawasaki product for as long as I live! I loved this bike but the service I have received from Kawasaki has been absolutely horrible.
Now to drive another hour to get a still dead motorcycle!
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:pukeface: on the dealer.
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Quick update as Im still in a holding pattern.
So the Service Manager that is actually working on the bike called me yesterday. He kept telling me that "he needs the FOB from the host bike to register the KPASS ECU".
I said umm we arent trying to register the KPASS ECU but in fact the FI ECU. The KPASS system is working to my knowledge. I then explained that the info he needs is in the KDS operating manual not the factory service manual! His comment was Oh Ill have to see if I can find it!!
OMG I am educating these guys just so I can hopefully get my bike fixed.
Unbelievable but at least Im making some progress even if it is for nothing.
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:deadhorse:
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Update!!!!!
The Service manager installed the replacement ECU in my bike and ran a diag. He is telling me there were no codes with the exception of Code 1526. He did not attempt to register it to my bike.
This is the same number they told me showed up a few weeks ago with the original ECU.
I asked him if he called Kawasaki Tech to which he said he did and they told him that code does not exist and offered no help. The code is showing up just as a the number 1526 with no definition as to what it is.
Im starting to be inclined to think that maybe the ECU isnt my problem since this ghost code showed up with both the original and replacement ECUs? He said he ran diag on the KPASS and nothing appeared to be wrong with it. It is recognizing the FOBS and allowing everything else to function normally.
If I talk to him today Im going to ask him to attempt to register the replacement ECU and see what happens. (Not sure why he didnt do that when he had it in).
It is clear to me that these techs do not know much if anything about the KDS or diagnosing these bikes but at least this service manager seems to be attempting where the standard techs made no progress.
I even made the suggestion to him to go ahead and check for spark since they have wired spark testers.
Any ideas appreciated.
The saga continues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I do not know or understand how he is getting a 4 digit fault code with KDS. As said previously, KDS does not identify faults in that manner - as Kawasaki Tech said. So I don't know what he's using/doing to see 1526.
But at least it seems to be progress - well, I hope it is.
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Freddy,
Yes it seemed to confuse him as well. When he called Kawasaki Tech line they don't have any idea what is causing it either.
I was thinking I wish I could find someone to either build or rebuild the ecu and eliminate all the BS systems Kawasaki put on these bikes.
Build an ECU that Controls the engine to make it run and put a regular key on it instead of all the KPASS BS.
Frustration level +10 but not loosing hope. I want my bike back!
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There's a guy south of Akron OH who has KDS. He may be able to help. I'll see if I can link him up with you
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There's a guy south of Akron OH who has KDS. He may be able to help. I'll see if I can link him up with you
I am he (as you are me...).
Let me peruse this entire thread. I hit the first and last pages, wanted to see if a resolution was found and saw the peculiar error. Have a suspicion or two but I want to read through and confirm a couple things.
OP, feel free to PM me.
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OK - all caught up.
Here's my SWAG:
Since the existing FI ECU and the replacement part are showing the same fault code, I suspect that neither is registered at this point. Put slightly differently, the original unit somehow became unregistered.
(Embedded Systems Security Engineer Hat ON)
In a previous life I worked with early gen Trusted Platform Module (TPM) based embedded systems - this for the financial self service market. These devices are a very close analog of a C14 - that is, a central brain (PC, embedded controller) and peripherals (card readers, printers, KIPASS, FI module). One hopes they see where I'm going with the architecture comparisons.
In those embedded systems, all peripherals had to be registered with the host CPU via the TPM in order for them to work, and they communicated via encrypted channels. This was due to the fact that some were physically located in a higher trust zone than others. If you unplugged or attempted to sub another unit a certain number of times the host would de-register the device and make the service tech re-register them with special service routines.
I'm leaning towards that being the case here, as engineering principles and practices are often re-used - especially where system security is the focus. Kawasaki - like my prior employer - won't divulge many of its operational housekeeping codes, though getting at the routines in compiled code on a PC-based construct is a bit easier than its embedded CAN equivalent. Either mama Kawi isn't divulging that info or the service techs aren't as they're bound by NDA - but I have no way to prove it.
(Embedded Systems Security Engineer Hat OFF)
If I had my way I'd launch every mouse in existence into the deepest, darkest black hole I could reach and sleep like a baby for it...but someone's snakes would go hungry. What I suspect (and would be very difficult to reproduce, a magic bullet of sorts) is that a combination of mouse foolery, corroded wires and fluctuating voltage levels put just the wrong set of data on the bike's CANBUS line at precisly the most inopportune time and made the FI ECU become de-registered.
Dave, I am waiting on a couple cables (inbound this week) and will verify I can connect everything to my '08. Then if you want, we can try to register the original FI unit...then your replacement.
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I am he (as you are me...).
Let me peruse this entire thread. I hit the first and last pages, wanted to see if a resolution was found and saw the peculiar error. Have a suspicion or two but I want to read through and confirm a couple things.
OP, feel free to PM me.
Sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun. If the sun don't come, you get a tan from standing in the English rain.
I wish I was back there but sadly I don't think I'll ever see England again..
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I went out to my '08 with both of my KDS3-installed laptops (Win10 and Win11), connected the FI module test port to the adapter via the Countermeasures cable (57001-1724) and then powered the bike on and connected to one laptop at a time to verify the Kawasaki Diagnostics driver was being installed. Behavior of this is slightly different between platforms and is definitely different than what is depicted in the KDS3 Setup Guide for Win7/8 systems.
Upon successful detection I ran Diagnostics from each laptop to verify the program is working. All appears good. Have a few more cables inbound (nice to have duplicates of some) but the system is up, running and ready to perform servicing of the '08-09's FI and related sections.
Dave, ping me with a status on your project if you wish.
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Bagger John,
Email sent
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:banana :chugbeer:
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Awesome. :chugbeer:
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Update for all who have been following along. This gets to be a bit detailed so bear with me:
Packed KDS3, PC and supplies then went to Dave's place yesterday. He had the bike plus a spare, loose FI ECU which we'll call ECU B.
Connected KDS up. Looked at Diagnostics. No stored errors. Tried to start the bike. Stove knob mechanism does its thing, unlocks, allows you to turn the key to the middle position. Dash lights all cycle correctly including the FI/Security light, which flashes once. (I bolded this for a reason - we'll get back to it.) Fuel pump and other engine management systems go through their prime/initialization sequence correctly.
Hit the starter and the bike cranks but no start and the FI/Security light flashes rapidly as long as the starter button is engaged. Checked Diagnostics again - no stored codes.
Did an initialization of the FI ECU (the one that came with the bike) as a first step test. "ECU Initialization correct". Still no start.
Looked at the KIPASS Real Time Diagnostics. FOB registration is proper, and there were two stored messages each for steering lock and FI ECU comm errors - but no current stored fault codes.
Swapped that FI ECU for FI ECU B. Upon power-up, got an FI Error message on the dash. Successfully initialized it and the error went away. Still no start.
Looked at the KIPASS Real Time Diagnostics again. The FI ECU comm errors had incremented by one, as would be expected.
Tried an initialization of the Steering Lock, then both the Steering Lock and FI ECU B together, then Steering Lock and FI ECU A (the bike's original one). Same - no start, no errors, nothing more in the real-time data.
At this point it looks like something which the ECU simply doesn't know how to log. The -08-09 service manual is rather sparse in regards to ECU behavior and a fault tree but the 10-14 gets into a bit more detail. Related to the bolded early on, from page 17-11 in that manual:
"If the problem is with the following parts, the ECU Cannot memorize these problems. the warning indicator (LED) doesn't come on or blinks...etc."
- Warning Indicator Light
- Meter Panel LCD
- Stick Coil Secondary and Ground Wiring
- ECU Power Source Wiring and Ground Wiring
Doing testing of some of the connectors for voltage requires needle tip adapters for my DMM (an excuse to $pend money on tools...yay). Dave may have some in his shop.
After looking at this problem with the tools, manuals and prior history of what was done with the bike I can identify two possibilities: One is something electromechanical (wiring, sensor, another component) that the KIPASS ECU cannot see or measure. The other is the KIPASS ECU itself. A search on the net for the "Kawasaki FI light flashes; no start" condition gets us into the tip-over sensor and a couple others which may or may not be relevant here. The bolded comment is reflected in a few threads I've found: Everything appears normal upon power-on and ECU initialization but a problem in a connected peripheral or supply line prevents the bike from starting.
So...question for Freddy, Michelle and the rest: If we had an immobilizer failure with the bike, I wouldn't be able to get the stove knob to unlock and the bike to go into initialization/prime mode...correct?
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I think that your assumption in your last sentence is correct. If it didn't see the fob it would not allow you to unlock the bike (turn the knob..easy boys). I had two occasions on my bike where it would not unlock. I had to beat it with a hammer and say a few select words to get it to unlock.
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Yes, correct.
Very 'interesting'!!!! Good work BJ. :chugbeer:
At this point l would replace the crank angle sensor. They can sometimes cause similar odd behaviour on other vehicles I've had experience with. If faulty, it should probably throw a code but stranger things have happened - tho l can't remember when. :facepalm:
As the wiring harness has already been replaced with no improvement, we can rule that out.
This problem is certainly a challenge. :(
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Freddy,
Thank you for the reply. For what it is worth, during the process of testing everything I left the crank position sensor unplugged by accident. As soon as I cranked the engine it thru a fault code immediately. Once I plugged it back in the fault went away.
I'm inclined that the CPS is operating normally.
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:thumbs:
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We also detected that event in the Real Time Diagnostics KDS display - but no dash codes are shown.
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I'm about out of ideas. There have been rare cases of ECU connector pins dislodged, but the issue arose after rodent attack and the bike was running well previously, I believe. The harness has been replaced (great work Dave) and since then the engine will not fire up.
BUT - could it be a connector pin somewhere that's been disturbed in the process? ECU Power Source Wiring and Ground Wiring or elsewhere???
What a job!!!
What next BJ?
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I'm about out of ideas. There have been rare cases of ECU connector pins dislodged, but the issue arose after rodent attack and the bike was running well previously, I believe. The harness has been replaced (great work Dave) and since then the engine will not fire up.
BUT - could it be a connector pin somewhere that's been disturbed in the process? ECU Power Source Wiring and Ground Wiring or elsewhere???
What a job!!!
What next BJ?
I believe a systematic study of the ECU power wiring and coil wiring is next. I also think at this point that the comm lines between KIPASS ECU, the FI ECU and the Steering Lock ECU are behaving properly else we'd be seeing comm errors every time the bike was switched on.
After this, a step-by-step examination of every sensor connected to the engine or chassis which acts as an interlock. Clutch switch, sidestand switch, etc.
Dave has a neat little pocket oscilloscope which we could use to look at the coil primaries. What I'd bring over to look at the secondaries is a bit bigger, but my thinking at present is that a sensor is signaling the ECU to not allow the coils to fire. What that is specifically has to be determined.
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Into the manuals a bit.
There are three specific tests I'd like to perform. One is an ECU power/ground inspection (requires needle adapters for the DMM and it just happens that I ordered a set recently.).
Next is a stick coil primary voltage test. Also requires needle adapters. There's something very interesting on Page 3-87 of the 08-09 Service Manual, at the top.
Error codes for the stick coils. What jumps out at me is "52". I recall earlier in the thread that the shop said something about code 1652? Code 16 simply doesn't exist or is reserved. 52, on the other hand, implies a power problem with coil #2. There's a possible correlation here.
Lastly is peak primary voltage (requires a few more tools - I bought the harness adapter). I'd really like to get a look at this on one of my lab scopes.
More manual study is in order. Now to focus on the coil power side of things.
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And a look at the coil supply circuits gives me a few areas to look at.
Dave's gonna cuss. Bodywork has to come back off (again). :rotflmao:
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:goodpost: :thumbs: Great work BJ - I'm proud of you. ;D :chugbeer: :banana
I'll send you a PM with a colour wiring diagram for the gen 1, courtesy of Fred H.
Yes, that code 1652 is a mystery. I dunno how/what they used to discovered it - if in fact they did.
EDIT: there is no option to attach files to as PM here so I've sent it via COG forum.
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Bagger John, you tell me when you want to work on it further and I will have plastics removed and ready for your arrival. I cannot Thank You enough for all this effort
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Bagger John, you tell me when you want to work on it further and I will have plastics removed and ready for your arrival. I cannot Thank You enough for all this effort
I need to buy a peak detector adapter for the DMM. Between that and your pocket scope we should be able to determine whether or not the coil primaries are getting voltage and if there's an issue with the ECU or coil power feeds.
A little electronic theory for those following along:
The ECU fires the plugs by bringing lines 1, 2, 26 and 27 to ground (corresponding to stick coils 1 through 4). If one was misfiring I'd suspect the coil itself or possibly the ECU. All four not firing plus the FI/Security light flashing likely means the ECU detects a system flaw (or lack of power) and is preventing any ignition operation. Page 3-88 of the service manual contains several areas of interest. One of these is the Run/Stop switch. Today's project is to examine the switch schematic and find out if it's a double pole type. If it is, one side of the switch (which supplies coil power) may not be making contact when closed...but this is a SWAG at the moment. More as I study the manual.
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Schematically, the switch is shown as an SPST. I'm wondering if it's actually a double pole. Testing voltage at the ECU will rule this section of the circuit out anyway so that's the next area of focus.
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:banana :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
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As this is an older bike, I would also suspect grounds being corroded. From what I recall there are grounds that are tied together in the harnesses that have gotten corroded in the past and caused issues..
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Bagger John,
Just a slight correction on the previous. Looking back thru my notes the "Ghost" codes from the dealer were -79- and -1526-. I have no idea where they came up with these numbers? I didnt see anything resembling those when we had your KDS hooked up.
I appreciate your effort on this and even though we havent found the problem I am optimistic and Im learning even more about troubleshooting electronics!
If there is anything you need from me please dont hesitate to ask.
Dave
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I got the peak detector and needle adapters in today. Waiting on the coil harness adapters,
We're definitely going to check grounds. Everything related to ECU and coils are suspect until proven otherwise...
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BJ or dl - any updates?
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Heading back to Dave's place this Saturday for more testing. The last couple weeks were tied up preparing for a new concrete driveway then letting it cure to the point I could get a bike out on the surface.
Money well spent; I finally have a nice surface on which to wash my bikes and roll them out.
Phase II and III are getting a 24x32 pole building garage off the lower (still gravel) driveway area then concreting both the inside of the new garage and the remainder of the driveway.
Must. Resist. Temptation. To. Lay. Burnout...
Back to our scheduled troubleshooting.
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I'll let Dave update the thread in his own words, but I put that bike out of my misery... :rotflmao:
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:popcorn:
:hitfan:
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I'll let Dave update the thread in his own words, but I put that bike out of my misery... :rotflmao:
Is it :battle: or :thumbs:
Dave - where are you???
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Well for all that has been following this thread and offered up all the help and advice I am here to say a huge THANK YOU ALL!!
THE CONCOURS IS ALIVE AND WELL. SHE RUNS AS GOOD AS SHE DID BEFORE THIS WHOLE ADVENTURE!!!!!!
Let me say that without Bagger Johns help on this bike the future would have been grim for this ole girl. Bagger Johns persistence, knowledge and willingness to help another biker out is second to none. His skill at diagnosing is better than anyone I have ever seen and I cannot Thank him enough! I will be forever in his debt!
Let me recap slightly before I get to the actual problem. In the beginning I had a very strange condition were I had nothing coming from the bike. That led to many hours of tearing the bike apart. Looking at sensors, connections, continuity of circuits which eventually lead to a broken #10 power wire going from the rectifier to the back of the bike. I repaired the wire and the bike came back to life, however I still had a crank no start condition. I spent hours researching, complaining and trying to figure out why this damn thing wouldnt start! Eventually I acquired another wiring harness and replaced the original thinking that if that one wire was broken there may be more. Still crank no start.
I finally broke down and took it to the dealer where all the professionals are!! HA. As all know that was a waist of $250 dollars. After being separated from my bike for 5 weeks while it sat in the corner at the dealer my savior contacted me thru this website named Bagger John offering to help. I retrieved the bike from the dealer and made arrangements to meet with John.
John was generous enough to ride almost 2 hours with his KDS software and associated equipment. Our first diagnosis session consisted of registering my spare ECU and looking at what the bike was doing. Thru the software we could see all the computers were talking to each other so it was still a mystery as to why we had no spark. (Or so I thought)
John came back this past Saturday prepared with new equipment and ideas! We performed a signal test on the individual coils and it showed we should have spark. At the suggestion of a friend of mine I removed the air cleaner and sprayed a little bit of starting fluid into the airbox. The bike sputtered indicting we did in fact have spark. AH HAH progress!!!
The next thing to check was fuel delivery! John performed a signal test on the individual injectors! Uh Oh something is amiss! My heart dropped thinking it must be something in the KiPass ECU not pulsing the injectors. John said to me dont worry we are going to figure it out! At this point Im loosing hope thinking if I have to replace the KiPAss ECU and all associated equipment it was over. I cannot afford to put $1500 into a $3500 motorcycle!! We started looking in the FSM and the open page mentioned checking the bike down sensor!!
John asked me about it and I said in the beginning I had removed that sensor and we ohmed it out to assure it wasnt bad. It ohmed out perfect so I re-installed it. I decided to go ahead and pull it again just to make sure I wasnt correct the first time I checked it.
I pulled out my flashlight to look at the sensor to see what I was going to need to remove it. As I looked up into the tail of the bike I saw the sensor and noticed a huge problem.
Can you guess what the problem was???
All this time after I installed the new wiring harness and the bike was a crank no start was because................
My dumbass installed the bike down sensor upside down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John was getting ready to leave because he had a commitment he had to get to so I asked him if he would hang out just long enough to let me pull the sensor, flip it over and just see. He agreed, I unbolted the sensor and just held it in the proper orientation, hit the start button and the bike immediately fired off and came to life..
I cannot explain in words the feeling of embarrassment, shame, frustration and relief I felt at that moment! I have and would never make any claim at being a mechanic but I am pretty sharp at paying attention to details like working on mechanical things! I cannot believe I lost almost 3 riding season because of such a stupid mistake!
The bike is back together, all that is left is for me to install my comms, GPS, change fluids, clean it up, put plates and insurance on it and maybe go for a ride!!
THANK YOU TO ALL THAT STUCK THROUGH THIS WITH ME AND OFFERED HELP AND ADVICE!! All the THANKS to Bagger John! Dude you saved me.....LOL
Two notes of reference:
1. If your security light blinks quickly while cranking check the Bike Down Sensor for function!!!! or orientation?
2. We are all human and are subject to brain dead ridiculously stupid mistakes! I was told by an ole wise man that as long as your trying your going to make mistakes! Keep Trying!
See ya on the road! Be safe everyone!
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Whew! What a rollercoaster! I'm glad you and Bagger John were able to figure it out. I bet that first fire was so sweet.
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I'll add one afterthought:
Don't mind going to help someone at all. I was employed in the industry professionally. My work ethic sometimes was at loggerheads with the shop owners, as I want to do it right and they usually wanted it done RIGHT NOW.
We used to have Tech Sessions in Ohio when I was the VRCC Tech Rep. I'd ride to these (sometimes for several hours) and teach the members how to do routine maintenance to their bikes, occasionally tackling very difficult repairs in member's garages. One such instance stands out in my mind: A buddy from Mentor was charged for a complete rear-end service when he had his GL1500C in for a tire change, but I'm the suspicious type and insisted on pulling the wheel plus final drive off at one of these Sessions.
What we found was that the drive splines were nothing but powdered rust. it was a miracle he got the bike to the Session in the first place. One of the crew had a spare rear end so we swapped things and got him home, then had the other one rebuilt.
My friend was charged decent money for the fact that particular item was overlooked. Any mechanic worth his or her salt would have felt the play if the bike was suspended on the shop's drop table and the assembly checked prior to removal...and the service manual specifically states to inspect such things at tire changes.
Nothing pi$$es me off more than to be charged for something that wasn't even remotely attempted.
Glad I was able to get Dave back in the wind on this one.
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1) I want to know why the fancy C14 can't display "BIKE DOWN" or "TIP OVER SENSOR" or something useful on the display!!!!
2) I also want to know why there is no diagnostic code produced in that situation.
The only reasons I can think of that it couldn't or wouldn't would be:
1) The sensor is outside the domain of the ECU (it might be completely autonomous cut of the fuel system)
2) Poor design decision (seems like it would make sense to go through the ECU, unless it is a critical fail-safe feature).
Inquiring minds want to know! (And are too lazy to figure it out in the wiring diagram)
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Now I feel a little guilty. A while back I was going through the FSM trying to figure out if the tip over sensor would result in the issues you had. I just didn't post anything, I guess I should have. :banghead: :rotflmao:
Oh well, I'm glad you figured it out.
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1) I want to know why the fancy C14 can't display "BIKE DOWN" or "TIP OVER SENSOR" or something useful on the display!!!!
2) I also want to know why there is no diagnostic code produced in that situation.
The only reasons I can think of that it couldn't or wouldn't would be:
1) The sensor is outside the domain of the ECU (it might be completely autonomous cut of the fuel system)
2) Poor design decision (seems like it would make sense to go through the ECU, unless it is a critical fail-safe feature).
Inquiring minds want to know! (And are too lazy to figure it out in the wiring diagram)
It will show a failure code if faulty (i.e., cannot be shown as connected to the ECU) but a simple tilt sensor won't show orientation. Nor would you want it to if leaned over very far, as the dash would constantly signal false alarms.
Building more capacity into the sensors drives the cost of the vehicle up, and if it's being built to a price point that simply won't fly.
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It will show a failure code if faulty (i.e., cannot be shown as connected to the ECU) but a simple tilt sensor won't show orientation. Nor would you want it to if leaned over very far, as the dash would constantly signal false alarms.
Building more capacity into the sensors drives the cost of the vehicle up, and if it's being built to a price point that simply won't fly.
I'd seen one mention on the 'Net regarding such. Once we verified spark, a systematic inspection of every sensor that could halt the FI operation was to be undertaken. It just so happened we started with the right one.
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:banana :chugbeer: A remarkably good and 'simple' end to a a looong sad story. Well done BJ.
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Another addendum:
The FI power test as described in the service manual is totally wrong. Incorrect connector and wrong wire shown in the pictorials.
Apparently the proofreading team got too heavily into the sake.
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:yikes: :battle: :facepalm:
That really would've helped big time - NOT.
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Excellent news. Glad she is back up and running. ;D :chugbeer: :thumbs: :banana
Don't beat yourself up over the sensor. We all do it.
I did exactly the same many years ago on a car.
I fitted new brake calipers all around and could not understand why I couldn't get all the air out.
3 months it took me to finally fix it. Car was looked at by 2 different mechanics and several of my friends.
I finally noticed it when one day I stood back from the car in frustration :banghead: with thoughts of rags and matches in my head.
I had fitted the new calipers on the wrong sides so they were swapped left-right and the bleed nipples were at the bottom of the calipers. :facepalm:
1 hour to swap them to the correct sides and hey-presto, a rock hard brake pedal!!
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Excellent news indeed! Truly a Haroldo thread!
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Excellent news indeed! Truly a Haroldo thread!
Nah - this little hick-up doesn't come close. :chugbeer:
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It's close Freddy, very close LOL
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It's close Freddy, very close LOL
Yes, close to turning it into a parts bike all for a simple and minor/major error - which didn't destroy things. :banana