Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: marku8a on July 06, 2011, 09:34:05 PM
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I do know what a slipper clutch is and what it's supposed to do. I haven't ridden a bike with one. Just for the heck of it I tried pretty hard to botch some downshifts (no rev matching). I chirped the rear a few times where I was expecting a much smoother deceleration. I only have a little over 1k miles on the bike. Does the "slip" improve over time?
Mark
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No.
I can kick it out sideways with ease with an abrupt downshift.
They can call it a slipper clutch all they want. It's probably just enough to keep the ring and pinion from exploding.
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It's a lot easier to downshift quickly than an older 600, that's for sure. I've had those step out on me more than a few times. I kinda forget after riding the connie all the time.
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In 5 differant trips to the track I never had an issue, I dont just dump the clutch, but I do let er out quickly. I saw an R1 get too aggresive on a downhill, low cambered turn, lots of smoke, and a great teaching point. Some wouldnt have a bike without ABS, I dont want a performance based bike with out a slipper clutch. Works great for me. I've run Lucas full synthetic since mile 75. over 49000 miles on the odo.
Great another oil thread ;)
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Let's get started...your oil suck and my oil is better...bah bah bah ;D
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Let's get started...your oil suck and my oil is better...bah bah bah
Agreed! I was really not asking about the merits of with or without. My question is about your take with our bikes. I really didn't experience what I was expecting.
Mark
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If I may? Which oil are you using? I aint no high falutin Rossi mech, but oils do play heavy in the clutch area.
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Yes, it has Back Torque Limiter or Slipper Clutch.
Believe it or not the C10 had one too, way back in 1986.
What this means is that if you downshift far enough to put the motor past the rev-limiter the clutch will slip.
The BTL is set so that it opens the clutch up enough to slip when the back torque gets close the no-fuel torque (drag) of the motor at 11,000rpm.
It prevents 2 things from happening. It stops you from over-revving the motor too much and stops the rear tyre from locking.
It will chirp if you do this while cornering and on some tyres they chirp anyways but you need to be either incredibly ham-fisted or else pushing REALLY hard to do this accidentally.
Doing it deliberately is easy and usually the only indication that you downshifted too far is that the needle stays on 11,000rpm until the clutch re-engages.
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Yes, it has Back Torque Limiter or Slipper Clutch.
Believe it or not the C10 had one too, way back in 1986.
What this means is that if you downshift far enough to put the motor past the rev-limiter the clutch will slip.
The BTL is set so that it opens the clutch up enough to slip when the back torque gets close the no-fuel torque (drag) of the motor at 11,000rpm.
It prevents 2 things from happening. It stops you from over-revving the motor too much and stops the rear tyre from locking.
It will chirp if you do this while cornering and on some tyres they chirp anyways but you need to be either incredibly ham-fisted or else pushing REALLY hard to do this accidentally.
Doing it deliberately is easy and usually the only indication that you downshifted too far is that the needle stays on 11,000rpm until the clutch re-engages.
I've never heard of a slipper working only at/near redline.... should be x force generated causes the slipper mechanism (springs?) to work. If sufficient force is generated at any mph/rpm, the clutch slips.
Be curious to see verbiage from Kawasaki on your explanation being how this particular clutch works.
Not picking nits, just sayin'.
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I definitely don't think the slipper clutch works only at redline. This is my first bike with a slipper clutch and it was IMMEDIATELY noticeable to me within the first couple downshifts on my test drive that the slipper was smoothing out my downshifts. I remember thinking "oh, so that's how a slipper clutch feels."
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You are probably right. I'm no slipper clutch expert.
The C10 one was designed to prevent rear wheel locking and over-revving the motor.
The 1400 one may well be more sophisticated but from my repeated forays into the clutch it looks identical except that this has four 3-pronged star springs on top of each other where the C10 had one 6-pronged spring for the 86-93 and then two 3-pronged ones that overlapped for the 94-07 models.
I believe these springs are what defines the back-torque limit.
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I honestly don't know if I've ever had the slipper clutch disengage or not. I suppose if I botched a downshift I probably wouldn't have noticed it. It seems to engine brake normally on downshifts. My track bike doesn't have a slipper clutch and I never have issues downshifting, and having ridden the newer GSXR's with a slipper clutch nothing feels different about downshifting them.
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use the brakes instead of your gearbox to slow down and you wont have to worry about it.
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I honestly don't know if I've ever had the slipper clutch disengage or not. I suppose if I botched a downshift I probably wouldn't have noticed it. It seems to engine brake normally on downshifts. My track bike doesn't have a slipper clutch and I never have issues downshifting, and having ridden the newer GSXR's with a slipper clutch nothing feels different about downshifting them.
If you ride a bike with a slipper like a bike that does not have a slipper, you won't notice it.
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If you ride a bike with a slipper like a bike that does not have a slipper, you won't notice it.
Exactly - they are not designed to completely freewheel. You wouldn't want that.
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What i meant was if u ride it like a non-slipper it wont slip.
U have to be fairly aggressive or it wont slip... Both in riding and the use of the clutch lever.
B
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Slippers are easily adjusted by changing the thickness of the steels in the clutch pack. Thin down the pack by a mm or 2 for a quicker release, and thicken it for a tighter - slipper free action.
Trust me, you want the slipper - I replaced the slipper in my c-10 with a cut down zx11 inner hub, and immediately realised that I'd kill myself on a couple gear downshift. with a shaft drive, the wheel doesn't chirp, it locks. Steve
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I have an sv 650 as well as the Concours 14. No way is the sv getting a slipper as the cost of adding one is about 800.00. Anyway, the Concours will let me get by with sloppy downshifts where the sv will lock its tire.
When I bought the 14 I did not even know it had one and could have cared less. However, after a few miles its a pretty cool thing to have.
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Hard locking the rear with a botched downshift is scary stuff, and a high side in the making. The C14 has saved my butt on overly aggressive clutch dumps. A little chirp is nothing if it prevents the rear wheel from sliding.
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I agree the few times I've made aggressive clutch dumps on the 14 I can feel the engagement but definitely as much lug down and effect on the rear wheel as there was on my zx-9, zx-11, or zx-12.
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Hard locking the rear with a botched downshift is scary stuff, and a high side in the making. The C14 has saved my butt on overly aggressive clutch dumps. A little chirp is nothing if it prevents the rear wheel from sliding.
Doesn't negate the rear wheel sliding... minimizes it. Big difference. Minor nit.
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If you ride a bike with a slipper like a bike that does not have a slipper, you won't notice it.
Then why have one?
If I may? Which oil are you using? I aint no high falutin Rossi mech, but oils do play heavy in the clutch area.
Using Rotella.
One of the reasons I asked the original question is that magazine articles that I read about bikes with slippers make it sound like you don't have to bother with rev matching at all while downshifting. Not having ridden a bike with a slipper and not noticing a difference with my C14 made me wonder if this a feature that breaks in with time. It doesn't sound like it.
Thanks for the replies.
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2008 C14 Design Factoid...there's a bit about the slipper...
http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf)
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So you don't have to read the whole thing, I cut and paste:
Q & A with Karl Edmondson, Kawasaki Product Manager
"The C14 owes part of its silky and
linear power to its maintenance free and
clean (no chain oil splatter) shaft drive - a
must for any self-respecting sport touring
machine. Kawasaki engineers went one
step further and fitted the shaft drive
system with a back torque limiting
(slipper) clutch, something normally
found only on race and sport machines.
This absorbs shocks when shifting down
gears and minimizes rear wheel hop,
resulting in smoother corner entries while
also helping to protect drive train parts.
Wrapping up the smooth delivery are the dampers installed in the clutch and front
bevel gear areas. Because this drive train transmits on/off throttle operation more
directly to the rear tire than a chain drive, these dampers prevent load alteration
behavior (lash) when riding the bike."
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Kawasaki engineers went one
step further and fitted the shaft drive
system with a back torque limiting
(slipper) clutch, something normally
found only on race and sport machines.
... and c-10 connies from 1986 on, and on full touring voyager XII's from 93 on, and zr7's and... So not such a big new deal, eh? Steve
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Then why have one?
My point was the slipper only acts like a slipper if you ride the bike in such a manner that it works as designed. If you carefully rev match on downshifts, or aren't riding aggressively, it won't slip. Not that that's a bad thing.
My supermoto has a very good quality slipper. If you pussy foot around on the bike, you won't know it has a slipper.
Barry
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One of the reasons I asked the original question is that magazine articles that I read about bikes with slippers make it sound like you don't have to bother with rev matching at all while downshifting. Not having ridden a bike with a slipper and not noticing a difference with my C14 made me wonder if this a feature that breaks in with time. It doesn't sound like it.
Thanks for the replies.
Slipper clutches were designed for the race track. Guys who race change gear mid-turn and failing to match engine and wheel speed in a high speed turn while leaned way over is a recipe for disaster. The slipper, when properly adjusted, allows for some "wiggle room" in throttle position without causing rear wheel lock and the often resulting high-side when the RPM's sync and the rear wheel starts turning again. The slipper is not designed to slip when you downshift three gears and dump the clutch--though it is certainly possible to adjust it to do that I'm not sure what the trade off would be and if it would be worth it. You'd certainly lose a lot of engine braking back-torque and I personally wouldn't want that.
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Barry, do you look at a slipper as a piece that gets used daily, or is it just for an emergency bail out?
I recall my only other shaft drive bike..and I swore never again.....but it was a 79 Yamaha xs 11. It stuck in my mind so deeply I walked away from the c14 when I saw it had a shaft. The salesman had to say ..."Hey, wait a minute...its not what you are thinking. Hi,s father was the one who picked me up off the ground many years ago, btu I'll get to that.
Obviously the xs11 was no c 14 (or c10 for that matter) on a c scale it might have rated a negative 03. If you were driving down the road at 30 mph, and chopped the throttle suddenly, the rear tire would chirp. Sounded , and felt, like you locked your rear brake for a split second. You could adjust to this, and had to, but it sucked.
The rear suspension also extended when you hit the throttle. Topped out is the best description. Rather violently. Couple this with a small bump on the road and the rear tire was airborne.
So when Kawasaki added a slipper and made the shaft drive connect with linkages and such, they made the bike more fun and way more safe. Especially comparing the c14 hp at 130 and the Yamaha at 85, or so. I highsided that 11 in a straight line, for crying out loud, one afternoon when the bumpy road and rear topping out met in a very dangerous meeting.
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My supermoto has a very good quality slipper. If you pussy foot around on the bike, you won't know it has a slipper.
Barry
We are all adult men here, we don't pussy foot on the bike or anything for that matter!
....ok honey, I will get off the computer and do the garbage now!
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We are all adult men here, we don't pussy foot on the bike or anything for that matter!
....ok honey, I will get off the computer and do the garbage now!
:rotflmao:
Spoken like a REAL (married) man!
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Barry, do you look at a slipper as a piece that gets used daily, or is it just for an emergency bail out?
On my supermoto, I ride the snot out of it, and go down 3-4 gears at one time for corners. When I started racing it I had no slipper. Going to a slipper was like night and day.
On the C14... I have TRIED to determine that I was getting the C14 slipper to work, still can't tell. But it's a 650lb+ bike, and the slipper on the C14 may be VERY different than the slipper on my supermoto.
And for the rest of you, maybe I'm communicating poorly. I'm not advocating pussyfooting around. If you do, you don't need a slipper. I'm saying unless you are riding aggressively you won't know you have a slipper cause you aren't riding the bike hard enough AND probably don't need a slipper.
Is it like ABS? In my opinion no. You can toss the bike away with a slipper. It may help, it won't save you. Not even close.
YMMV,
Barry
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I never felt the slipper clutch work until i started running Penzoil motorcycle oil. Tranny shifted much better also. I dont know whats in it but it works. I run the bike pretty hard and have grown to rely on the slipper.
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I run the bike pretty hard and have grown to rely on the slipper.
Please remember that when you next test ride a bike that does NOT have a slipper clutch. ;D
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Works great for me so far! :thumbs:
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I never felt the slipper clutch work until i started running Penzoil motorcycle oil. Tranny shifted much better also. I dont know whats in it but it works. I run the bike pretty hard and have grown to rely on the slipper.
My slipper has worked about the same with all the various oils i've dumped in mine.