Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Fontenot on June 04, 2018, 06:09:22 AM
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I cut the Catalytic Converters out on my 2016 C14. That was a JOB!
Also shipped My ECU To Ivan for re flashing!
Now it's time to plan my SS 1000 Ride.
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I cut the Catalytic Converters out on my 2016 C14. That was a JOB!
Yeah, one really not worth it.... on previous threads and long discussions, most were in agreement (including those who did it) that it doesn't really affect performance either way (leaving or removing it) because it is [apparently] not restrictive. Plus, removing it is illegal and could affect inspections or resale (although unlikely to ever be noticed unless your area requires smog testing of some sort). Huge effort, some risk, little if any benefit.
The differences you will notice will most certainly be the reflashing of the ECU, not the CAT removal. That will make a huge difference :)
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De-catting removed a lot of heat from mine.
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De-catting removed a lot of heat from mine.
That, it probably would. Or, at least it would more evenly distribute the heat through the rest of the system. Sometimes I wonder if an insulated exhaust system would help to move a significant amount of heat "downstream". Of course, we still have that huge radiator. I still wish we had an automatic "reverse fans when slow/stopped" option (and wonder if it would help or be effective). On the Gen 2, I rarely have any issues with engine heat, except when traveling very slowly or stopped.
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Well, if you go thru the p.I.t.a. of removing the cats, mght as well send it out, and get it ceramic coated, inside and outside... then you will see improved heat reduction. And also, prolong the life of the pipes after all that welding, which will eventually rust, stainless or not...
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Well, if you go thru the p.I.t.a. of removing the cats, might as well send it out, and get it ceramic coated, inside and outside... then you will see improved heat reduction. And also, prolong the life of the pipes after all that welding, which will eventually rust, stainless or not...
Is that expensive? Header, and pipes?
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Is that expensive? Header, and pipes?
Any local powder coating place can do it. Call them.
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I still wish we had an automatic "reverse fans when slow/stopped" option (and wonder if it would help or be effective). On the Gen 2, I rarely have any issues with engine heat, except when traveling very slowly or stopped.
:goodpost:
I'm not sure how complicated the automatic part would be, but the fan reversal (manual) should be a relatively easy mod for those that know their way around relay wiring. Since the ECU only controls the fans relay, it could care less whether the fans are running forward or reverse. As long as there are no unseen diodes inside the fan motor housing I would think a DPDT relay could be inserted between the fan relay and the fans. Control it from a LED switch (red I think) where the LED is lit when it's reversed. Now how complicated would it be for automating it?
I wonder if the fans are powered off automatically by the ECU at a certain speed? Anybody know?...anybody? anybody?...if they are, then having them reversed all the time wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. (?)
It is certainly something I would look into if I used my bike as a daily commuter.
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:goodpost:
I'm not sure how complicated the automatic part would be, but the fan reversal (manual) should be a relatively easy mod for those that know their way around relay wiring. Since the ECU only controls the fans relay, it could care less whether the fans are running forward or reverse. As long as there are no unseen diodes inside the fan motor housing I would think a DPDT relay could be inserted between the fan relay and the fans. Control it from a LED switch (red I think) where the LED is lit when it's reversed. Now how complicated would it be for automating it?
I wonder if the fans are powered off automatically by the ECU at a certain speed? Anybody know?...anybody? anybody?...if they are, then having them reversed all the time wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. (?)
It is certainly something I would look into if I used my bike as a daily commuter.
Id suggest against trying to force them to do something they were not designed to do....
I've used a ton of various thin profile and pancake designed fans for cooling applications in the products I've designed, and I'll say the design of the motor, its bearings, and coils, and alßo the blade configuration all work in concert to provide the most air, for the least wear on the mechanicals... reversing them, electrically, will subject the mechanicals to increased wear, and load. The end result will be dramatically shortened life span of that unit.
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Yeah, the fans should be reversible. They may not flow as much air, and as the radiator is slanted, it would be harder to push air through the radiator backwards but all of that said, it may well work; the C-14 has a very robust cooling system and so if the overall fan efficiency was knocked down by, say, 10% or 15%, and the system has 50% excess built into it, then it would still work fine.
I certainly would not recommend trying to force the air through the radiator backwards once there is any forward motion though. Doing that is going to make the fans directly fight the normal airflow generated by the bike moving and would end up preventing airflow through the radiators, at least at some speeds. And seeing as my fans often come on at low speeds (guess: less than 30 MPH) even on a modestly warm day (80's F), I think defeating the fan flow would not work out.
I also do not think it would be desirable to instantly reverse the current flow and direction of an already running fan because it will probably generate a large current spike. So there should be some time delay between running forward and then running in reverse (and back again) when stopping. That could be done with time delay relays but they are expensive and the system would still need some means of sensing when the bike is not moving. That will be the more difficult part, although a crude but effective 'speed check' electronic device could be made using a timer / counter chip (such as a 555) and having the vehicle speed sensor reset it. So once the bike stops, the timer would time out and engage the electronic 'stopped mode'. But then you would need a method to reverse that too, so the easier way, IMO, would be to use a MCU for all functions in the fist place. That way all parameters would be controlled by code and easily changed during the testing phase (often called Research and Destroy).
All of the automation aside, one could try it with nothing more than a couple of relays and a three- position switch which would be used for Forward (normal), Off and Reverse. You could trigger the switch with your fingers and try out the whole system that way.
And YOU are living in one of the best ambient temperature test- bed areas around Marty. ;D It does not get that hot here and besides, when it does go into the mid- 80's and above, I hide behind A/C in the car and house like Mary Jane Tinklepants 'cause I hate it when it is hot. But where you are, a 100F day is merely warm, right? :o
Brian
:goodpost:
I'm not sure how complicated the automatic part would be, but the fan reversal (manual) should be a relatively easy mod for those that know their way around relay wiring. Since the ECU only controls the fans relay, it could care less whether the fans are running forward or reverse. As long as there are no unseen diodes inside the fan motor housing I would think a DPDT relay could be inserted between the fan relay and the fans. Control it from a LED switch (red I think) where the LED is lit when it's reversed. Now how complicated would it be for automating it?
I wonder if the fans are powered off automatically by the ECU at a certain speed? Anybody know?...anybody? anybody?...if they are, then having them reversed all the time wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. (?)
It is certainly something I would look into if I used my bike as a daily commuter.
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Smog testing ? Is there anywhere in the U.S. that requires a smog inspection on bikes. My area requires annual inspections on cars where they run a scan on the pcm to see if there are any codes thrown.
My ‘96 impala ss passes, despite running no cats!
Fwiw, I rode my stock c14 in stop and go traffic in Phoenix when it was 114 degrees, bike never overheated.
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I certainly would not recommend trying to force the air through the radiator backwards once there is any forward motion though.
Yep, that would be a no-no. And with a manual switch, there is a huge risk of leaving it flipped in the wrong position. The best way would have to be automated based on speed, with a time delay of a few seconds before moving to the next "mode". Done really correctly, it would also need to tap into the ambient air sensor, so it would also know it was "summer". Having it reverse when it is cold outside wouldn't be desirable (although it is less likely to use the fans much then, anyway). All of this would have been super cheap and easy-peasy if designed into the bike, natively. The ECU already (presumably) controls the fans. It knows the speed of the bike. It knows the ambient temperature.
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Smog testing ? Is there anywhere in the U.S. that requires a smog inspection on bikes.
Have no idea. I did some searching and it seems that motorcycles are mostly exempt; even in CA.
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Yep, that would be a no-no. And with a manual switch, there is a huge risk of leaving it flipped in the wrong position. The best way would have to be automated based on speed, with a time delay of a few seconds before moving to the next "mode". Done really correctly, it would also need to tap into the ambient air sensor, so it would also know it was "summer". Having it reverse when it is cold outside wouldn't be desirable (although it is less likely to use the fans much then, anyway). All of this would have been super cheap and easy-peasy if designed into the bike, natively. The ECU already (presumably) controls the fans. It knows the speed of the bike. It knows the ambient temperature.
Interestingly, the GL1800 Goldwings have a reverse-flow fan setup from the factory. Normally, when riding, the air comes in under the cowling and above the front wheel and exits out the right and left sides through the two radiators. But when stopped, and the fan is needed, the fans pull air in from the sides and out the front. It's my understanding, and I believe it's true since you can hear the fans when they run, that the fans do not ever run when the bike is moving forward. It seems that Honda wanted to keep the hot air from the radiators away from the rider when stopped. Overall, it seems to work quite well. But in this case the fans don't reverse, it's just that the natural airflow is reversed by the fans when the bike is stopped.
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All of the automation aside, one could try it with nothing more than a couple of relays and a three- position switch which would be used for Forward (normal), Off and Reverse. You could trigger the switch with your fingers and try out the whole system that way.
And YOU are living in one of the best ambient temperature test- bed areas around Marty. ;D
No not gonna test it, like I said if I was a daily commuter, but I'm not. Some of the problems could be over come in a manual mode, for instance a lock out relay would only allow the fans to run in reverse if they are not currently running. It would be cumbersome but possible, anyway I think I'm too old and too dumb to program a MCU ..whatever that is.
Also some fan inspection would be needed, like MOB brought up sorta, what if the fan bearings were able (aka designed) to handle thrust loads in one direction only. Anyway maybe someone with a wrecked Gold Wing will adapt their system to their replacement C14? 8)
Ha, funny you should bring that up now Brian. Our home A/C compressor gave up on us on Saturday after 13 years of February thru November service. I've been living in front of fans ever since. It's 12:20 AM and our house is at a somewhat sticky 84-85 degrees F. inside. New 5 ton 2 speed compressor should be installed tomorrow later today. I'm wearing shorts around the house, and I never wear shorts except to play raquetball. :P :P :P C'mon A/C guy, hurry up get here and take my money!
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Uh, what is the purpose of having the fans on the c14 run backwards?
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Uh, what is the purpose of having the fans on the c14 run backwards?
max' thinks it might keep the rider cooler when stopped at a long light or in the 2-3 mph stop 'n' go traffic...at least that was my take on his thoughts. I think he's correct in theory, but feasibility is another matter and right now it's just a mental game to figure out how to maybe make something like that work. Not likely to happen....but then I thought that about putting a vibrator in the seat tied to the turn signals...sure enough a guy did it and it was a hit with the girls in the rally parking lot. ;D
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Were they screaming "Left, big Boy, Leeeffffffttttttt!!"? Or "Are there any rotaries around here (implying a directional could be left on)?".
Brian
max' thinks it might keep the rider cooler when stopped at a long light or in the 2-3 mph stop 'n' go traffic...at least that was my take on his thoughts. I think he's correct in theory, but feasibility is another matter and right now it's just a mental game to figure out how to maybe make something like that work. Not likely to happen....but then I thought that about putting a vibrator in the seat tied to the turn signals...sure enough a guy did it and it was a hit with the girls in the rally parking lot. ;D
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Were they screaming "Left, big Boy, Leeeffffffttttttt!!"? Or "Are there any rotaries around here (implying a directional could be left on)?".
They seemed to enjoy just sittin' there in the parking lot with the bike on the center stand and the blinker on. No telling what sort of Sybian experience the 4 way flasher would cause. ::)
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max' thinks it might keep the rider cooler when stopped at a long light or in the 2-3 mph stop 'n' go traffic...at least that was my take on his thoughts.
Yep
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I’ll add to my experience driving at 114 degrees-
I never had a problem with excess heat from the radiator. I did have a problem from heat coming from the stock muffler, my right leg calf really felt it. Btw, my bike is ‘11.
I now have a akropovic cf slipon and don’t want to see if that is better in 114 heat anytime soon.
One thing to think about- reverse the direction of flow and it might not be as effective in cooling off the radiator and you could see overheating.
My fan was constantly running and the temp gauge always at the highest mark of not overheating.
If it were 120 degrees, I wouldn’t be surprised if the over heating icon got lit.
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One thing to think about- reverse the direction of flow and it might not be as effective in cooling off the radiator and you could see overheating.
I don't think it would be much less efficient, but since we are reaching for the moon, just add that to the mix of smartness.... if it detects the bike is still too hot, it can switch back to rearward air movement. :)
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It would be less efficient. Instead of blowing in cooler outside air to cool off the radiator, you’d be drawing air from the enigine air, plus you’d probably not get the same volume drawing from the limited space in the tupper ware that you get from the outside.
The rider might also be hotter as rather than hot air be directed out of the vents and away from rider, it would be blown in front of the bike only to drift back to the rider .
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.
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It would be less efficient. Instead of blowing in cooler outside air to cool off the radiator, you’d be drawing air from the enigine air, plus you’d probably not get the same volume drawing from the limited space in the tupper ware that you get from the outside.
The rider might also be hotter as rather than hot air be directed out of the vents and away from rider, it would be blown in front of the bike only to drift back to the rider .
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.
Yeah the engine heat in that area might not be ideal, however if the air can flow in and through that "limited space" it can flow out as well. If the concept can work for a Gold Wing it can work for a C14
at least on a theory level until proven that it can't. So far the only negatives are possible bearing load problems in the fans because of reversal; extra heat from drawing air from a radiantly hot engine area,
and it being a somewhat complicated automation project. Still until someone proves it won't work even manually I think we should keep encouraging max' to test it out. :popcorn:
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If it’s going to be tested , let it be in phoenix, in stop and go traffic when it’s at least 114 degrees, then report back.
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If it’s going to be tested , let it be in phoenix, in stop and go traffic when it’s at least 114 degrees, then report back.
(http://sozaizchi.com/sozai/line/yajirushi/images2/30.png)
Cool! (pun intended) WE HAVE A VOLUNTEER! ;D
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I also forgot to mention, when I commented about running a compact, directionally designed, DC fan opposite of what it was designed for (Mechanically by design), that MOST also have reverse polarity and "stopped blade" protection built in..., and even if this one does not, curious myself, as I'm not about to "test" it on my $$$.
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Oh man, you are worried about money on such an important project? Do not even think of it Rich; when my African money comes in, I will send you enough to buy three DC fans, a LaCroy O-scope w/ current probe and a little extra for the local power plant. We want accurate results after all....
Brian
I also forgot to mention, when I commented about running a compact, directionally designed, DC fan opposite of what it was designed for (Mechanically by design), that MOST also have reverse polarity and "stopped blade" protection built in..., and even if this one does not, curious myself, as I'm not about to "test" it on my $$$.
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:thumbs: :thumbs:
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(http://sozaizchi.com/sozai/line/yajirushi/images2/30.png)
Cool! (pun intended) WE HAVE A VOLUNTEER! ;D
Sorry, but I’ll make it my goal to never ride a motorcycle in Phoenix in the middle of summer again! I did it once , that’s enough.
But hey, you can pick up from there.
My iPhone overheated so I lost gps. I went into a Walmart to write directions on my arm and the ink just smeared from all the sweat . Just really sucked.
I was stuck in a Mexican restaurant with no power cuz a microburst dropped so much water that my bike would float away. Here is a pic from outside the city of that same storm:
https://www.google.com/search?q=phoenix%20microburst&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1#imgrc=vrGI0R4erKqF1M: (https://www.google.com/search?q=phoenix%20microburst&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1#imgrc=vrGI0R4erKqF1M:)