Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Steve in Sunny Fla on June 01, 2017, 03:53:34 PM
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Both Concours. Which bike is faster - and why?
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I'll take a stab. Mike_Dionne is faster because the power comes on at much lower RPM.
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I'll take a stab. Mike_Dionne is faster because the power comes on at much lower RPM.
I think that is just a data collection issue. In the case of the red plot, the usable data only starts probably around 3.6K RPM, so you have to start there in the comparison. I doubt the red plot is really saying there is only 10hp at 3400 rpm and suddenly has 80hp more a few hundred RPM later at the blink of an eye :) This is pretty common on the dyno plots I have seen; it depends on what gear is being used and when the plot is started.
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I think that is just a data collection issue. In the case of the red plot, the usable data only starts probably around 3.6K RPM, so you have to start there in the comparison. I doubt the red plot is really saying there is only 10hp at 3400 rpm and suddenly has 80hp more a few hundred RPM later at the blink of an eye :) This is pretty common on the dyno plots I have seen; it depends on what gear is being used and when the plot is started.
correct on that issue. Posted elsewhere on the net, nobody seems to have figured that part out yet. Still, the question remains... Which is fastest?
steve
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correct on that issue. Posted elsewhere on the net, nobody seems to have figured that part out yet. Still, the question remains... Which is fastest?
steve
In this case, the bike with the better rider will be faster.
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The red one. From 4000 rpm's on till shut down it's pulling harder.
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The red one. From 4000 rpm's on till shut down it's pulling harder.
well that would certainly appear to be the case, But all is not as it appears...
steve
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Still, the question remains... Which is fastest?
steve
Define "fastest". Top speed, or acceleration? My answer is: Red = Blue. i.e. same.
They can both make it to redline, and with the same gearing they'll be equally "fast".
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Define "fastest". Top speed, or acceleration?
That was my first thought, but I assume he meant acceleration. Then I thought it was a trick question (like many us of probably do) and it might still be..... :)
They can both make it to redline, and with the same gearing they'll be equally "fast".
Technically, on the graph, neither was tested to redline, which is as least 10K (some claim the tach reads 0.5 high at the top end so 10.5 = 10). And there is no usable data from the red one under 3.6K, which although typical for many dyno plots, is still important to know
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So let me toss out a hint... read the title. Steve
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Neither one...they're both strapped onto a dyno & can't move, hopefully.
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So let me toss out a hint... read the title. Steve
LOL- maybe they are two bikes on the same dyno at the same time?? :) That would be strange. Perhaps it is the SAME bike, and these are readings from two different dynos....
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Perhaps it is the SAME bike, and these are readings from two different dynos....
and THAT would be correct!
So one might wonder what the point is. Simple, actually - - to dispell some misconceptions about the infallability of dynos, and the mistaken thought that we can tell which modifications are better than others when the testing was done on different dynos.
The bike used here is in the exact same state of tune on both, yet one dyno clearly gives it a strong edge of 5-6 hp for the entirety of the comparative run. In this case, the bike is the standard that the yardsticks (dynos) are held to. Which dyno is closer to correct? who knows... all we know is that they are clearly not measuring the same.
To me, this is important info because often we make farkle choices strictly by the dyno chart This can still be done, but to give viable info the modifications need to be compared on the same bike, on the same dyno, and in as comparable weather conditions as possible. Then compare the percentage of change. This should give a more clear view of the actual performance changes achieved. we need to get away from just looking at dyno charts and seeing which shows the highest hp or TQ... and buying that product. If the measuring devise isn't constant, the results are just not reliable. Steve
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:goodpost:
:)
I took way too many courses in statistics, so I will totally agree with you. Sample size and repeatability are both extremely important when evaluating things and trying to draw a conclusion about something.
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Who won ?
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you did! :shoot: :yikes:
Steve
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HaHa!>
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Then please direct me to the owner of the red dyno. I want my bike to have more horsepower and torque without me having to buy anything.
:P
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Then please direct me to the owner of the red dyno. I want my bike to have more horsepower and torque without me having to buy anything.
:P
That would be Chris Jones, Chiefland Fl. Chris is a world champion engine builder / tuner, he built the zx14 Ricky Gadson set the world record on. He's had so many 500 +hp pulls on that dyno I think all the friction is worn out of it! The blue trace is from my dyno which had very little use before I bought it, and the electronics were just refurbed by Dynojet less than a month before that run. Steve
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If I recall Chris also built a turbo C14 for a guy that was around the forums for awhile.
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Who won ?
Who or which? Hmmm... Me and neither. Oh, and 42
That would be Chris Jones, Chiefland Fl. Chris is a world champion engine builder / tuner, he built the zx14 Ricky Gadson set the world record on. He's had so many 500 +hp pulls on that dyno I think all the friction is worn out of it! The blue trace is from my dyno which had very little use before I bought it, and the electronics were just refurbed by Dynojet less than a month before that run. Steve
My race mechanic friend asked me to ask which dyno brand the other was (I described the thread when I ate dinner with him and his wife last night; a kind of weekly tradition now since they moved 30 miles away). He says Dynojet sometimes reads a little high, but they work very hard to make sure every one of their [non-tampered] dynos gives consistent readings from one to another.
Of course, I suspect your two runs were not done back-to-back, which means weather conditions and elevation could have been different (I think most dynos try to adjust for at least temp and elevation). But just as importantly, the bike would also have to be in the same warm-up temp, and oil/fluids/gas/tire pressure and condition would have to be identical, etc.
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both dyno's were dj150's.
The correction factor is an issue, well in that it could also not be as correct as possible... it was hot when the bike was on chris' dyno, and the cf was 1.06 SAE. weather conditions were perfect on my dyno, SAE 1.00 cf.
In both cases bikes were warmed up. I have played around with that on my dyno, cold to hot rarely gives more than a couple hp difference.
I suspect, and will try to prove / disprove that there is a default in the ECU to knock power down with timing and or fuel when the bike is warm and the ambient temps are high. I'm not going to explain now, but I have seen many dyno runs from many dynos for the c-14... look around, you'll see runs the peak at 7800 rpm, and others that continue to gain til 8800 or so. Heck I've seen my own bike do that on the same dyno, but that was on Chris' and I hadn't really put all the pieces together about what might be going on.
steve
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That would be Chris Jones, Chiefland Fl. Chris is a world champion engine builder / tuner, he built the zx14 Ricky Gadson set the world record on. He's had so many 500 +hp pulls on that dyno I think all the friction is worn out of it! The blue trace is from my dyno which had very little use before I bought it, and the electronics were just refurbed by Dynojet less than a month before that run. Steve
Chiefland? That's all of 30 miles from my house.
Can't figure out how I've never heard of Chris.
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Chiefland? That's all of 30 miles from my house.
Can't figure out how I've never heard of Chris.
Yeah, and I'm moving there. been trying to get property up around there for years, finally bought last year. And yes, google up Chris... he's a very bright guy, i enjoy the time I spend with him. In the beginning before he know me and I told him I would be tuning the c-14, he had all kinds of admonitions... now he speaks with me as a peer, though I know we aren't - he has piles of turbo experience,and mine has been limited to N/A. Steve
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Well, we will await the collaboration between you two on a C14 turbo kit :)
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Yeah, and I'm moving there. been trying to get property up around there for years, finally bought last year. ...
Moving close to the Suwannee?
I'm not sure what else might attract somebody to Chiefland.