Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Goat on May 01, 2017, 09:17:25 AM
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I finally did it! On Friday I had my suspension set up by a pro and man what a difference. This is the first time I've had that done and now I wonder why I waited so long, the best $60 I've spent on the bike bar none!
Mr. Roger Albert at On Road Off Road Cycles in Austin TX did it. He was very attentive and meticulous and nailed the setup like I imagined.
If you're still considering or have never considered having this done just do it, you won't regret it. :thumbs:
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I have tried telling other riders this myself since day one on this bike. I had mine setup two weeks after I bought it and wow world of difference. It completely eliminated the slide towards the tank issues. I can't wait to upgrade it with Traxion valves and maybe a Penske rear shcok. ;D
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I'm wondering what he did for you. Was it just an adjustment or did it involve changing some of the components? If so, what?
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He set sag and adjusted the suspension to my style of riding, I tend to like the more sporty side of sport touring. The adjustments balanced the bike out especially with rebound. We went down 2 in the front and went up 7 on the rear.
No new components at this time, they are on the wish list but once I get them I will go back to him and get it dialed in. These adjustments really have made a noticeable difference, it's much more fun now.
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Big time agree over here and I can't recommend it enough to anyone who will listen. I did the same thing for the first time last summer and what a transformation! Best money 'upgrade' that a bike could have.
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how tall are you and how much do you weigh? What were the settings?
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I will get the final settings from him, I was too excited and drove off without a copy. I am 5'9" about 235 with full gear.
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Here is the sticky from "another place"
When I picked up my 2011 C14 last month, I wasn't sure how best to set up the suspension. I read as much as I could and used a nice write-up to write specific instructions for the C-14. I figured it may help out others in a similar situation. Feedback welcome!
Adjusting Suspension on a Kawasaki Concours 14
The steps provided below were summarized and adapted for the Kawasaki Concours 14 using the excellent instructions provided on the Go Star Racing (How I set up my Motorbike) website:
http://www.gostar-racing.com/information/motorcycle_suspension_set-up.htm (http://www.gostar-racing.com/information/motorcycle_suspension_set-up.htm)
I would highly recommend reading through those more-detailed instructions before simply using the distilled instructions I have provided below.
When setting up the suspension, you will adjust the rear preload, front preload, front damping, and finally the rear damping – in this order.
The Kawasaki Concours 14 does not allow for separate damping of compression and rebound. Therefore, a compromise must be made between the two, as explained in the following set-up instructions.
A. Setting the Rear and Front Pre-load
I. Adjusting the Rear Pre-Load
1. Put the bike on the center stand allowing the rear wheel to be suspended in air.
2. Find a point on the bike directly above the rear axle and measure the distance in millimeters from the axle to this point (The point selected is not important. It is only important to be consistent in measuring from both locations). This is the UNLOADED Distance =_____ mm
3. Put the bike back on level ground (off of center stand) and bounce up and down a few times. Re-measure from the two points used previously. This is the NORMAL Distance = _____mm.
4. Sit on the bike in full gear and bounce up and down a few times. Get in your normal riding position with feet on the pegs. Measure the distance between the two points used previously. This is the LOADED Distance = ____mm.
5. Calculations:
Static Sag = UNLOADED - NORMAL = ____mm. This is how much you can lift rear before topping out the suspension. GOAL = 5-10 mm
Rider Sag = UNLOADED – LOADED = ____mm. This is the amount of compression of suspension with bike wt and rider wt. GOAL = 30-40 mm (Ideal – 35mm)
6. Adjust the rear preload by turning the black knob on the left side of the motorcycle near the passenger peg. Turn clockwise to increase preload (reduce amount of Rider Sag) or counter clockwise to decrease preload (increase Rider Sag). Record total Rear Rider Sag = ____mm.
7. Re-check the Static Sag (although not adjustable) to see if it remains between 5-10mm. If greater than 10mm, you may need a stiffer rear spring. If less than 5mm, you may need softer springs for your weight.
8. If Static Sag is less than 5mm, you must compromise and re-adjust the pre-load to give 5mm – to prevent topping out.
9. To record the final pre-load setting, either rotate the pre-load adjustment knob fully in or fully out while counting the number of clicks to reach either extreme. Return the knob to the adjusted setting and record the number of clicks. Preload = ____clicks from max (fully clockwise) or ____ clicks from min (fully counter clockwise).
II. Adjusting the Front Pre-load
1. Method #1: Stationary Static/Rider Sag Method (not recommended)
A. A. Put the bike on the center stand allowing the front wheel to be suspended in air.
B. Find a point on the bike directly above the front axle, along the angle of the fork, and measure the distance in millimeters from the axle to this point (The point selected is not important. It is only important to be consistent in measuring from both locations). This is the UNLOADED Distance =_____ mm
C. Put the bike back on level ground (off of center stand) and bounce up and down a few times. Re-measure from the two points used previously. This is the NORMAL Distance = _____mm.
D. Sit on the bike in full gear and bounce up and down a few times. Get in your normal riding position with feet on the pegs. Measure the distance between the two points used previously. This is the LOADED Distance = ____mm.
E. Calculations:
Static Sag = UNLOADED - NORMAL = ____mm. This is how much you can lift front before topping out the suspension. GOAL = 25-30 mm
Rider Sag = UNLOADED – LOADED = ____mm. This is the amount of compression of suspension with bike wt and rider wt. GOAL = 35-48 mm
F. Adjust the front preload by turning the screws (with rings) on top of the forks. Turn clockwise to increase preload (reduce amount of Rider Sag) or counter clockwise to decrease preload (increase Rider Sag). Record total Front Rider Sag = ____mm.
G. Re-check the Static Sag (although not adjustable) to see if it remains between 25-30mm.
H. If Static Sag is less than 25mm, you must compromise and re-adjust the pre-load to give 25mm – to prevent topping out.
I. Record the final pre-load setting, by either recording the number of rings on the adjustment screw or the length of the screw protruding from the forks. Preload = ____rings or ____mm from _________ to _____________.
2. Method #2 (Recommended “Real World” Method)
A. Wrap cable ties around the smooth part of the forks (clip off excess). Do not make too tight to avoid damaging the rubber seals.
B. Slide ties up against rubber seals and take the bike out for a road test.
C. Ride in normal driving situations making sure to involve cornering, braking and other “typical” driving conditions for the driving you routinely do.
D. Stop and measure the distance of the tie from the bottom of the fork tube.
E. If the ties are less than 10mm from the bottom (bottomed out), increase the pre-load by turning the lined nuts on top of the forks clockwise. If the ties are more than 10mm, decrease the pre-load by turning the ringed nuts counter clockwise. Adjust in small (one line) increments, slide the ties back against the rubber seals, and re-test. Always set the forks at the same setting.
F. Record the final setting. Preload = ____rings or ____mm from _________ to _____________.
B. Setting the Front and Rear Damping
I. Damping – Compression and Rebound (Overview)
A. General Information
-Unlike pre-load, damping really comes down to personal preference – with some safety considerations as well. Overall, it depends on the bike, your riding style, the tires, the tire pressure, the tire shape, etc.
-On the Kawasaki Concours 14, damping is a compromise between compression and rebound, since they can not be adjusted separately.
-If you run out of damping during adjustment (max in or out), you may need to change fork oil for your style of riding.
- Among other things, the bike will handle differently under high and low speeds and wet and dry roads. Damping may need to be adjusted for different conditions.
B. Compression
-The goal is to compress the front in a slow and controlled fashion. The forward weight transfer helps slow the bike quicker.
-If too hard, the bike will skip or chatter over bumps. You can’t compress fast enough, which results in compromised ride and braking – especially in wet conditions.
-If too soft, the bike feels “vague” (poor feedback) and the suspension may bottom out.
-When set correctly, the front compresses in a controlled, predictable manner, which shortens the wheelbase and allows for faster, more predictable, cornering
C. Rebound
-Controls the rate at which the bike “sits-up” after compression. Proper adjustment is critical in corners and turns.
-If set too hard, the rider experiences a lack of feedback and the suspension can continue to “pump down” until the forks are bottomed-out, which is extremely dangerous
-If set too soft, the front-end will pop-up resulting in a loss of traction.
II. Adjusting the Front Damping
- If the front damping is not done correctly, the bike will either sit-up too quickly (too soft) and drift out (washes out) or turn in too quickly (too hard) and feel “wooden.”
1. Method #1 (Simplistic – not recommended)
A. With the bike held level, press on the steering yoke, without holding the brake, and then let go.
B. Observe the distance the yoke travels and the time it takes to return to the starting position.
C. If it takes longer than 1 second to return to the starting position, decrease the rebound (black knob on top of forks counter clockwise).
D. If it takes less than 1 second or goes beyond the starting position, increase the damping (black knob on top of forks clockwise).
E. To record the final front damping setting, either rotate the damping adjustment knob fully in or fully out while counting the number of clicks to reach either extreme. Return the knob to the adjusted setting and record the number of clicks. Front Damping = ____clicks from max (fully clockwise) or ____ clicks from min (fully counter clockwise).
2. Method #2 (“Real World” Method)
A. Take the bike out and find a good road for cornering (Sweeping back roads).
B. Since most accidents happen during cornering, we are going to set-up the suspension for cornering. Goal is to get the bike to enter and exit corners with minimal rocking or see-sawing.
C. When set-up correctly, the rider will be able to brake hard before a turn or at the apex of a turn, let go of brakes, and get back on the throttle without the bike see-sawing (Sit-up or Dive)
D. Ride through a series of turns making note of the bikes tendency to rock or see-saw. Adjust the damping one click at a time (some do this over days of riding) to see how the change affects the handling and comfort (feedback).
E. Once you find the handling and comfort that fits your riding style, record the final front damping setting, by either rotating the damping adjustment knob fully in or fully out while counting the number of clicks to reach either extreme. Front Damping = ____clicks from max (fully clockwise) or ____ clicks from min (fully counter clockwise).
III. Adjusting the Rear Damping
A. Background
a. Compression
- If the rear damping is not done correctly, the bike will be too bouncy (too hard) or will exhibit excessive squatting (too soft) on hard acceleration.
- Some squatting (compression) under acceleration is required to ensure good traction, but too much leads to poor exiting from corners.
- Too soft and the nose will come up and cause the front tire to drift wide on exiting.
- Too hard and the rear wheel will spin and slip (kicked-up)
b. Rebound
- When adjusted correctly, the rear wheel remains in good contact with the road for optimal traction.
- When too soft, the chassis will feel unsettled making the bike wallow and lurch mid-corner
- When too hard, the rear wheel will not sit-up quick enough resulting in the nose up and the bike drifting wide, with a vagueness and loss of traction.
B. Setting Rear Damping on a Concours 14
1. Stand the bike on level ground
2. Press hard on the foot peg nearest to you.
3. The bike should compress equally front and back
4. Adjust the small screw (straight blade) at the bottom of the rear shock (screw faces toward left side). Turn clockwise to increase.
5. Once the bike is set to compress equally, the suspension adjustments are complete.
C. Notes
- These instruction were written by a novice (non-professional) and simply represent my attempt at understanding and applying instructions for adjusting the suspension on a Kawasaki Concours motorcycle.
- An improperly adjusted suspension can result in an accident causing injury or death.
- Adjustments to the suspension should only be made by someone qualified to make such adjustments
- Anyone following the instructions provided in this document is doing so at their own risk.
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how tall are you and how much do you weigh? What were the settings?
Please note, you can't all derive settings from just height and weight. Height does not relay arm or leg vs. torso length, and that can make a huge difference with all kinds of things like center of gravity, peg location, and grip location. Probably matters less with suspension setup than for things like risers, windshield height, ground clearance, etc.
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I have been trying to set up the suspension on my 08.
Trouble is I have been riding other bikes that I feel handle better. By better I mean neutral where I can literally let the handle bars go in mid corner and the bike will maintains its angle and doesn't lift or fall in the corner. Presently my Conny is a bit of a struggle wanting to stand up in corners. As for tires i'm presently running PR 4's, I previously ran PR3's and PR2's, I thought PR2's handled better than the other PR's but that could be more to do with head bearings, fork oil, or suspension set-up.
I have been contemplating replacing the head bearings with a tapered type of bearing and servicing the forks (08 with 40,000 miles) in the hopes of improving the handling.
My question to you or any other Conny owners is this, is it possible to achieve neutral handling from the Conny?
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By better I mean neutral where I can literally let the handle bars go in mid corner and the bike will maintains its angle and doesn't lift or fall in the corner. Presently my Conny is a bit of a struggle wanting to stand up in corners.
Mine very much wants to stand up in corners. I have to supply significant force to maintain a lean/corner.
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I have been trying to set up the suspension on my 08.
Trouble is I have been riding other bikes that I feel handle better. By better I mean neutral where I can literally let the handle bars go in mid corner and the bike will maintains its angle and doesn't lift or fall in the corner. Presently my Conny is a bit of a struggle wanting to stand up in corners. As for tires i'm presently running PR 4's, I previously ran PR3's and PR2's, I thought PR2's handled better than the other PR's but that could be more to do with head bearings, fork oil, or suspension set-up.
I have been contemplating replacing the head bearings with a tapered type of bearing and servicing the forks (08 with 40,000 miles) in the hopes of improving the handling.
My question to you or any other Conny owners is this, is it possible to achieve neutral handling from the Conny?
What size PR4s? The stock size or the taller one? I don't think that head bearings will help you. If the fork oil hasn't been change in awhile it should be but I don't think that will help either, it wouldn't hurt, though. You probably should go to someone that sets up suspensions for a living based on your riding style.
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I have been trying to set up the suspension on my 08.
Trouble is I have been riding other bikes that I feel handle better. By better I mean neutral where I can literally let the handle bars go in mid corner and the bike will maintains its angle and doesn't lift or fall in the corner. Presently my Conny is a bit of a struggle wanting to stand up in corners. As for tires i'm presently running PR 4's, I previously ran PR3's and PR2's, I thought PR2's handled better than the other PR's but that could be more to do with head bearings, fork oil, or suspension set-up.
I have been contemplating replacing the head bearings with a tapered type of bearing and servicing the forks (08 with 40,000 miles) in the hopes of improving the handling
My question to you or any other Conny owners is this, is it possible to achieve neutral handling from the Conny?
This forum is awesome, and someone here told me how to get the big Connie to handle in the corners. My bike was acting just like yours and was a real P.I.T.A. in the twisties until I switched to a PR4 with a 55 series aspect ratio for the rear tire, and did a "sag-set dial in" for my bike. All the annoying constant bar effort, correcting apex and lifting in the corners was gone and I am still smiling after 75,000 trouble free bullet proof miles. This is hands down the best bike I have ever owned out of many.
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I'm running the taller PR4's
I decided to follow the recommended suspension set-up instructions above and the bike is handling better, not perfect but much better. Trouble is I've loosened the front forks pre-load as much as it will go and I still have 30mm between the cable ties and the bottom of the fork tube (10mm Recommended). This surprised me seeing as I probably weigh 215 lbs with all gear.
Are there spacers inside the fork that I could remove or cut down or is my only answer a new set fork springs? if so any recommended springs I should be looking at?
Thanks,
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What kind of sag measurement do you have when you are sitting on the bike?
It matters little how much of the travel you are using (as long as you are not bottoming out---depending on how hard you brake you can change that amount everytime you check it
Sure it would be great to sit in the middle third of travel through most of the riding you do, but........
First step is to see if your springs are even correct....measure free sag, rider sag and how much total preload is on them to achieve those numbers
Just because one can achieve close number(s) by having zero preload or a boat ton, does not equate to being properly set up!
Also the preload adjuster is not the actual preload amount- there is always (sans RC51's and a couple other bikes) assembled preload built in, generally too much from the factory, becasue springs are progressive wound and too soft typically....
typically if you put too much preload in, your free sag is little to non existent to achieve a decent rider sag number
conversly if you have little to no preload to achieve the correct rider sag, you may well see far too much free sag
rider sag..........you on the bike in riding gear, in riding position measuring how much the travel is used
free sag........... the bike alone sitting upright on both wheels on flat ground measuring how much travel is used up
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Mr. Roger Albert at On Road Off Road Cycles in Austin TX did it. He was very attentive and meticulous and nailed the setup like I imagined.
Roger is usually at Ridesmart track days. He has helped me on several ocassions with my track bikes. I have one that is evil handling and we are still trying to diagnose its ails. I am still contenplating taking the connie to a track day. When I do, Roger will be my first order of business. Even if the bike doesn't go back to the track I would be glad to get it sorted. I have no idea where it is right now. I've only had my bike (used) for 2 months.
LOL! I thought Roger was from Dallas, not Austin. Giess that is why I see him in Houston so often.
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On the weekend I road an 2017 FJ09 and and 2017 FJR1300. the FJ09 was a crazy fun bike with beautiful handling and surprising mid range torque. the FJR1300 was neutral and inspiring once you were in the corner but felt heaver than the Conny in left to right transitions. its rides like this that push me to try to get to most out of the Conny's handling.
I have been setting up the suspension using only rider sag figuring if i can only adjust for either rider or free sag that it would be more important to set up with the rider.
I admit I'm a little confused on the importance of free sag if the rider sag will be incorrect.
After spending a number of hours today on suspension I will say that overall the bike handles better (lighter and more neutral) when the suspension is tight, outside of the sag parameters listed earlier. the ride is a little harsh but the bike is lighter to handle and more willing to lean and offer a feeling of confidence.
I have ordered a set of PR2's hopefully this will help. My tires aren't completely worn but I'm leaving on a trip so i'm changing them out. As mentioned earlier it was a wile ago but I felt the PR2's handled better.
Another thought I haven't mentioned is I have lowered the rear and not the front. I did this when I first got the bike. If possible i might try lowering the front an inch or so to see it that helps.
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On the weekend I road an 2017 FJ09 and and 2017 FJR1300. the FJ09 was a crazy fun bike with beautiful handling and surprising mid range torque. the FJR1300 was neutral and inspiring once you were in the corner but felt heaver than the Conny in left to right transitions. its rides like this that push me to try to get to most out of the Conny's handling.
I have been setting up the suspension using only rider sag figuring if i can only adjust for either rider or free sag that it would be more important to set up with the rider.
I admit I'm a little confused on the importance of free sag if the rider sag will be incorrect.
After spending a number of hours today on suspension I will say that overall the bike handles better (lighter and more neutral) when the suspension is tight, outside of the sag parameters listed earlier. the ride is a little harsh but the bike is lighter to handle and more willing to lean and offer a feeling of confidence.
I have ordered a set of PR2's hopefully this will help. My tires aren't completely worn but I'm leaving on a trip so i'm changing them out. As mentioned earlier it was a wile ago but I felt the PR2's handled better.
Another thought I haven't mentioned is I have lowered the rear and not the front. I did this when I first got the bike. If possible i might try lowering the front an inch or so to see it that helps.
Should be the first thing you do.
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Should be the first thing you do.
+1
Significantly lowering just the back end is going to seriously whack the handling of a motorcycle.
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Since it changes the rake it will slow the turn in and cause it to wallow around and not hold a line. :o
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Since it changes the rake it will slow the turn in and cause it to wallow around and not hold a line. :o
Inotherwords the bike is drunk and should get a DUI?
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Just read this discussion quickly.
Lots of good info.
Ride safe, Ted
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Update:
As mentioned earlier with the help of the Form Members I had spent a fair amount of time dialing in the suspension with reasonable results but I still wasn't there.
Today I had a new set of PR2's installed and volla, absolutely 100% neutral handling. I had to go with the 180 width to get the 55 series in the rear but I'm extremely happy with the handling. No matter how far I leaned the bike I can let the handle bars go and the bike doesn't straighten up or fall in the corner, way more confidence inspiring.
I realize new tires are a joy, and a bunch of you are thinking ya ya new tires, but I seriously don't think I have been able to achieve this level of neutral handling with the PR3's or 4's.
Just my 2 cents.
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I realize new tires are a joy, and a bunch of you are thinking ya ya new tires, but I seriously don't think I have been able to achieve this level of neutral handling with the PR3's or 4's.
I am one of those people :)
In my case, worn out PR4GT = had to fight HARD to hold it down for a corner. New PR4GT = almost neutral, no effort at all to hold a corner. When you start wearing out the center of the tire, any tire, it will get harder and harder to hold a corner. And it will "dance" some at the transition from the worn out places to the less worn places on the sides.
In your case, I suspect if you had the same [newly improved/corrected] suspension settings before with any new PR4 3 or 2, it would have been neutral....
But enjoy it while it lasts :) :)
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I realize new tires are a joy, and a bunch of you are thinking ya ya new tires, but I seriously don't think I have been able to achieve this level of neutral handling with the PR3's or 4's.
You lifted the words right off my keyboard. Even lightly worn tires don't have the profile they came with. I love the feeling of new MC tires even more than new car/new helmet smell!
My current PR2 only have about 3000mi and I can already feel the joy has diminished. I'd be game for spooning them off to craigslist for a new set even though I'm sure they will go at least 7k. Was hoping a trackday would wear them back into shape but they are wearing like iron and I rode like a granny. I'm sure some rider out there worn down to the center tread bars will find them joyous enough. I need to fresh skins though to remain happy. I say, yes, it is that big a deal.